This is not a "who would win in a fight thread" or "who is the strongest combiner" per se (well... it kinda is), as those have already been beat to death on this forum. I also didn't want to necro any old threads (I see now that they have been necro'd anyways). My goal in this thread is to have a definitive discussion about all G1 cartoon/toy continuity combiners to see their strengths, weaknesses, and compare their combat ability to one another in a fight using tech specs and what we've seen from the show. For the sake of brevity, I will not be using material from Headmasters, IDW, etc. No Monstructor, no Liokaser. I try my best to remove all bias. Unfortunately, the show is incredibly inconsistent, which makes it hard to rank the combiners. Sometimes combiners are foiled by a single shot, while other times they stand there triumphantly shrugging off blasts. I use other material like tech specs, toy bios, and whatnot to help me create my table below. The rest have to be reasoned out. Even tech specs are without their inconsistencies, as I doubt a 10-strength 10-firepower Megatron could actually outmuscle or outgun the combiners. So because of this, most have to be done with reason. Without further ado, below is listed a table of tech specs gathered from toy data. Okay, let me try to explain this. The top section contains the Tech Specs for all combniners taken from gift sets sold. On the right side of the table, I list the "total" for cumulative points, and then "total battle", which removes Rank, Intelligence, and Courage. Rank has little to do with combat ability, and although you could rationalize Courage as Aggression (which does, indeed, help in a fight), we will simplify this and pretend all the combiners are bloodlusted (i.e., they want to fight and they want to win). Intelligence was taken out (for now) because, in a cage match, intelligence doesn’t really help you. I will chalk Computron vibrating to break up Abominus to skill. We will revisit intelligence later (because Computron needs love). BLOODLUSTED CAGE MATCH using pure tech specs Going by pure toy bios and tech specs, if the combiners were to have a combat tournament, Superion would come out on top, followed by Defensor and Predaking. Menasor would take third, followed by Abominus and Computron. Poor Bruticus and Devastator come out bottom… We could end it here, but something about this ranking didn’t sit right with me. First off, Bruticus was an absolute menace when he was first introduced at the end of season 2, and was incredibly unstoppable (if I recall, Prime said “only Defensor can stand against Bruticus”, probably to sell me more toys). So let’s explore a bit. Using the tech specs data, I created a table ranking each combiner (middle table). Notice how a lot of combiners are tied. The only one that takes “reasoning” with no real official data is the Strength column. While the other columns were pretty definitive, the "Strength" column needed some more fleshing out to create a more “definitive” discussion about the combiners (because Devastator needs love). I don’t know where this information was stated (I know it was stated in the old necro’d Bruticus vs. Devastator thread: http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/transformers-general-discussion/675571-bruticus-vs-devastator-2.html any link appreciated), but Defensor and Menasor are officially stronger than Bruticus. Considering how Omega Supreme is officially stronger than any combiner, and Devastator constantly brawls with the big guy, I gave Devastator a strength of 10, and ranked the others accordingly. Defensor and Menasor, stronger than Bruticus, sat at a 9. I then grouped the rest of the combiners together at 8, with the exception of Computron (who is the weakest), sitting by himself at 7. Now we throw them all in a cage match and watch… BLOODLUSTED CAGE MATCH using relative strength The result is exactly the same. Even though I gave Devastator more strength, and Menasor and Defensor got a strength buff relative to the other combiners (and Computron a strength nerf), the result is the exact same as before. The only exception is Bruticus is now tied with Devastator.. Again, this didn’t sit right with me. Bruticus should be a lot higher on this list, and he definitely shouldn’t be tied with Devastator. He beat Devastator head on in a bloodlusted 1v1 match (Starscream’s Brigade) without breaking sweat. But before we dive into ‘reasoning’ as a method of rank, let’s bring in Intelligence. Intelligence might not help very much in a Bloodlusted Cage Match, but in a battlefield, where the environment and the situation changes constantly, intelligence is absolutely necessary. So we look at the third part of my spreadsheet, where I re-incorporate intelligence. For sake of simplicity, we assume both parties are bloodlusted with the goal of killing one another. BLOODLUSTED BATTLEFIELD using relative strength and intelligence Once again, Superion still comes out on top. His speed gives him a huge points boost where others suffer drastically. Computron and Defensor now come in second, with Predaking not far behind. Menasor ranks fourth, Bruticus fifth, and Abominus and Devastator (poor Devvy) bringing up the rear. Again, I’m not too completely happy with this either. Bruticus is too low in my mind. He should at least be as strong as Defensor (his rival). So let’s assume now that tech specs don’t give the final say. Perhaps 1 point in Strength doesn’t equal 1 point in Speed, or vice versa. It now becomes incredibly hard to rank them using just tech spec data. Going by canon is hard because of inconsistencies… but in the grand scheme of storytelling, let’s use G1 events as much as we can (because Bruticus needs love). What we’ve seen: Menasor vs. Superion – Superion needed Omega Supreme’s help to win. Menasor is slightly stronger than Superion. Bruticus vs. Devastator – Bruticus wins easily Bruticus vs. Menasor… kinda- Menasor can sucker punch Bruticus, but I don’t like referring to this as it wasn’t really a fight. Abominus vs. Computron – Computron won 2 out of 3, both times using their head (intelligence DOES play role!), so I will give Computron an ever so slight edge. Unfortunately, there were not a lot of 1v1 combiner duels. There are plenty of pot-shots and sucker punches though… What we know: Devastator – the first combiner. Primitive compared to the later versions. Uses 6 Constructicons Menasor – pretty much crazy because of the incompatibility of personalities between the Stunticons. Slightly better than Superion. Stronger than Devastator because the Constructicons never gave the Autobots so much trouble (again, plot device to sell toys, oh well) Bruticus and Defensor – Prime once said “Only Defensor can stand against Bruticus.” In terms of field combat, Defensor and Bruticus are evenly matched. I’ll also take this to mean, at the time, no Autobot or Decepticon combiner was as good a fighter. Unfortunately, this statement was said before Predaking, Computron, or Abominus. Predaking – Perhaps, after Computron, the only cohesive personality. “No known weaknesses” except Sky Lynx -_- Abominus – Dumb brute who ranks lower on the thought train than Devastator and Bruticus (who are pretty dumb in their own right). Slightly worse than Computron. Computron – The smartest, but also the weakest combiner. Slightly better than Abominus. Unfortunately, we aren’t shown many comparisons between the later combiners and the earlier combiners (Computron vs. Menasor, Superion vs. Abominus, etc.), so for the sake of simplicity (once again), we will assume that they are more or less equal from the early generation combiners to the later generation combiners. This gives us: Menasor > Devastator Menasor >= Superion Bruticus > Superion, Menasor, Devastator Bruticus = Defensor And: Abominus <= Computron And very little data for Predaking So, if we had to do this all over again, using what we know now… BLOODLUSTED CAGE MATCH using G1 storyline AND tech specs analysis from before I think Predaking would take the cake, honestly. He ranked pretty high with the tech specs, in total (2), with relative strength (2), and with relative strength and intelligence (3). He’s a cohesive unit, bent of the hunt, and is armed to the teeth. Next in line would be Bruticus and Defensor. In terms of stats, Defensor and Bruticus collectively rank higher than Abominus and Computron. Not to mention that this is a bloodlusted cage match, where Computron’s thinking ability will only get him so far. Superion and Menasor rank third (with Menasor slightly ahead), as their stats are very high (much higher than Computron or Abominus). Superion is incredibly fast, and can fly. Menasor is armed to the teeth (sword AND gun). Bringing up the rear is Computron and his rival Abominus. Unfortunately, Abominus does not have a lot going for him… at least Computron is smart. In last place, poor Devastator. Primitive, slow, dumb, and not very skilled. BLOODLUSTED BATTLEFIELD using G1 storyline AND tech specs analysis from before Computron wins this one. His intelligence can’t be measured just as a “10” within tech specs. If we could give relative stats, none of the others would be above a 3 (perhaps Predaking). In terms of Autobot vs. Decepticon war effort, he has the most to contribute. If he and another combiner were dropped into a battlefield bloodlusted, Computron would devise a game winning strategy. Predaking would come second. He hunts collectively as one. He’s strong, armed, fast, skilled, and smart. I have no doubt that he would be able to dismantle any other combiner (Computron included) if he were given the jump. Computron would need to devise his counter-strategy quickly, otherwise Predaking would have taken the first spot on here again. Defensor would come as a very VERY close third. In terms of stats, he’s just as strong and skilled as Predaking, not to mention he’s much smarter than Predaking. He can also protect objectives with his shield. If he’s able to devise a strategy, he may even take the second spot… but Predaking will stalk and hunt him before then. In a head on encounter, Predaking is… king. Bruticus, Menasor, and Superion are tied for fourth. Bruticus might be physically the better fighter, but he’s dumb. Menasor is a great fighter in his own right, but is crazy. Superion may be inferior to the other two, but he is fast and can fly (!). If Superion were smart and could do strafing runs, he might have ranked a lot higher… alas, it is something we’ve never seen him do. Abominus and Devastator bring up the rear. Strong but stupid, but not yet as strong or skilled as Bruticus. Final thoughts. I tried my best to do this without any bias. I am a huge Devastator fan, and was really hoping that his increased strength would have given him a better edge. Unfortunately, that was not the case. Of course, depending on whatever battlefield they’re in, or the situation at hand, one combiner could always tip the scales. It’s sad that at the end of the day, the Decepticons have to be foiled and the Autobots have to come out on top… and that to sell toys, they must always make the previous incarnations weaker than the newer ones. A good thing is that every gestalt has their forte: Devastator is a brawny construction worker. He’s strong, the strongest physically. Menasor is a skilled, yet crazed pit fighter. Armed to the teeth with both gun and sword. Bruticus is the perfect soldier, like a Marine. Single minded and skilled, great at combat. Predaking is a supersoldier. Armed (gun/sword), strong, fast, smart, and skilled. Abominus is a monster. Not much stands out… probably why he’s my least favorite. Superion is the scout. Lean, fast, and can fly! Gets there quick, and a decent fighter! Defensor is a wall. Not to mention he has a force field. He’s at the vanguard defending the front line. Computron is the general. He’ll contribute most to the war effort, even if he’s not physically fit. And at the end of the day, none of this matters because of the inconsistencies One last thing I want to address is scale. I know this is a touchy subject because, hey, Transformers, but let me give my thoughts BRIEFLY. The cartoon, the canon, the toys… None of them scale. Even in Transformers Devastation, Menasor and Devastator are the same size. Not only is this impossible, they are impossibly big. Menasor’s limbs far outsize Prime, and they’re supposed to be cars! The show is so inconsistent, but what’s worse is the very IDEA of scale is flawed in this series. We have Ironhide fitting into Ratchet in van mode. We have Ultra Magnus picking up two Constructicons, one in each hand. We have BLASTOFF (SPACE SHUTTLE!) form a limb with Vortex. Astrotrain? Groove? But I digress…. If I were to give them a scale ranking, it would follow something like this: Devastator is the biggest. He’s 6 large construction vehicles. Six! Bruticus would be next, just because Blastoff should be so freakin large. Onslaught and Brawl should be pretty big too. Superion ranks third, because Silverbolt is a Concorde, and he’s made of jets! Menasor rank fourth, because cars. Defensor ranks fifth, because freakin’ motorcycle. Abominus and Feralrex can fit in wherever the heck you want them to. Okay I’m done. Please feel free to discuss. EDIT NOV 3RD: Scramble City data added I just looked at Scramble City. There were several fights to note: Arielbots (non-Superion) vs. Devastator - Devastator loses :'( Superion vs. Menasor - Menasor wins, again. This solidifies Menasor > Superion The rest is more of a group brawl, with little 1v1 data, and can't help much on deciding who comes out on top. I feel the early generation combiners are well defined. We know Superion is stronger than Devastator, and we know that Menasor is ever so slightly stronger than Superion. We assume Bruticus is stronger than those three, and that Defensor is near equivalent to Bruticus. The real point of contention concerns the post-movie combiners. Predaking has no data, basically. He's just always losing to Sky Lynx -_- Computron and Abominus are evenly matched. There is no data comparing post-movie combiners to pre-movie combiners. Again, I'm going to assume that they're within the same magnitude of combat capability. The reason for this is that the non-combiner characters don't find any more difficulty (or any less) when dealing with a gestalt, and I'm of course assuming that non-combiner characters don't become incredibly stronger post-movie either.
Haha. If someone were to give me actual citations for stats, like health points, damage per weapon, etc., I could whip something up in Matlab real quick.
Wow, a lot of work has obviously gone into a great topic - debating the relative strengths/weaknesses of some of our favorite characters. I can think of a lot of episodes where the strengths of weaknesses of various combiners were on display. And yes, there was a lot of inconsistency. The biggest example that jumps out at me is the portrayal of Devastator. When he first appears he is by far the strongest robot around. But then later he appears weak next to omega supreme in the secret of omega supreme. If not for the 86 movie I think that Devastator would have been relegated to some weaker status. But devy's feats of strength in the 86 movie propelled him into legendary status.
I have to hurry and get ready for work, so if the following is incoherent, I apologize in advance. This is a really cool idea, and kudos for all the thought you put into it! When I first started hearing about Combiner Wars, I started daydreaming about massive combiner fights, and the end-all answer to who would win. Anyway, I think there is a lot of bias towards Devastator, simply because he was the original. The scales you propose seem to fit with the least inconsistent parts of G1, and the dispositions are spot on, too... with maybe the exception of Computron... To me, he's less a general and more a combat staff officer. Maybe it's my bias, but a general has to be a charismatic leader, and Computron is not Charismatic. Assuming that bigger size = harder to take down (and that the original depiction of devastator had him positively MASSIVE compared to the "standard" combiner depiction), I think Devastator would fare slightly better than the scenarios given play out. Did you take into account Scramble City for match-up data. My memory is a little fuzzy now, but I thought that there were three or four combiners fighting at once in that episode.
Perhaps not a general, but at least a competent Wheeljack In terms of scale, assume all combiners scale to the exact same size (a la Devastation) Devastator is a constructor/builder. He is Decepticon manual labor as opposed to top fighter. I just looked at Scramble City. There were several fights to note: Arielbots (non-Superion) vs. Devastator - Devastator loses :'( Superion vs. Menasor - Menasor wins, again. This solidifies Menasor > Superion The rest is more of a group brawl, with little 1v1 data, and can't help much on deciding who comes out on top. I feel the early generation combiners are well defined. We know Superion is stronger than Devastator, and we know that Menasor is ever so slightly stronger than Superion. We assume Bruticus is stronger than those three, and that Defensor is near equivalent to Bruticus. The real point of contention concerns the post-movie combiners. Predaking has no data, basically. He's just always losing to Sky Lynx -_- Computron and Abominus are evenly matched. There is no data comparing post-movie combiners to pre-movie combiners. Again, I'm going to assume that they're within the same magnitude of combat capability. The reason for this is that the non-combiner characters don't find any more difficulty (or any less) when dealing with a gestalt, and I'm of course assuming that non-combiner characters don't become incredibly stronger post-movie either.
Haha! Sky Lynx is just a plain old badass! Trying to use purely G1 data is extremely difficult. One of the side effects of a show that was mainly aired to sell toys (However awesome that show was!) I'm not familiar with the comics (yet) and simply couldn't get into Armada (Anime just isn't for me, I've learned) so I don't know if there's any data to be gleaned from them. Anybody have any reliable info from those sources?
Ik this thread is almost like 3 years old, but let me explain. We all know devastator is the first DECEPTICON combiner, and superion the first AUTOBOT combiner. They haven't really fought in the g1 cartoon well in scramble city when the aerialbots air strikes devastator. In the old g1 comics they both fought on the golden gate bridge, idk what bridge it was but that's my guess. Devastator got the uperhand at first saying that superion was weak and he shoukd give up or something like that. Then Superion shot him in the neck area close to the head, literally like paralyzing or making devastator disengage into his component parts. Devastator is basically kinda weaker, and superion is more durable. Devastator can wreck the golden gate bridge, while superion can destroy a battle ship in one single blow. Superion could even take down the titanic? Idk, but I would say superion is definitely stronger than devastator, and more durable. Menasor is slightly stronger than superion, due to his rage. Also bruticus is tougher than them all, even though he got distracted and menasor one punched him in the episode starscreams brigade. Abominus is slightly stronger than bruticus, even though he's dumb, like they say "the dumb ones are the strongest and toughest ones." Predaking outrank them all, well he kinda does outrank abominus since computron is abominus's rival. I've never seen any regular gestalt struggle to beat abominus unlike Predaking. But skylynx does outrank predaking, unless if you talk about the dinobots new combined mode Volcanicus. Then it would make volcanicus and predaking both outrqnking most combiners. Probably making them stronger than liokaiser, and other combiners that are out there. This is my opinion on who's stronger than who. And my opinion on who's stronger superion or devastator?
