If you really want to get mad at "pandering", get mad at Disney. Get mad at Marvel. Call them out for performing the bare minimum of LGBT allyship in order to keep their LGBT audience while keeping it minor enough to appease homophobes. THAT'S pandering. Not a gay man drawing a gay couple in a comic because he's making the representation that he wants to see and that he knows other people want.

I'd be more willing to believe that if I had actually ever seen anyone ever get mad about straight representation in Transformers. Because that has never, ever happened. I'd actually be willing to bet money on the fact that had it been a straight kiss instead of a gay one in this comic, you wouldn't have said a peep about pandering to the straights. Did you get mad about Optimus/Elita in the WFC Trilogy? Does the sight of a male and female robot holding hands send you into conniptions? Be honest. Because the fact that you only wring your hands and whine about pandering when a gay couple appears in Transformers and stay totally quiet about the straight ones (and only claim that you'd get mad about straight couples after you've already gotten mad about gay ones) is pretty fucking sus, tbh.

Did you hurt your knees jumping to conclusions that hard? You must have torn a muscle or something.

For god's sake, just get over it. Gay characters exist. Deal with it and read something else if you really dislike that so much.

 

Sizzle and Volt, I see you!

 

Oooh, which page?

 

Yeah, this. Transformers is a product made by humans to be consumed by humans, so there's always going to be a push/pull on assigning human traits to them to for the purposes of relatability, versus traits emphasizing their alien nature. (Both in how they're shapeshifting mechanical lifeforms, but also that they're from another planet.)

In all likelyhood, if a planet of shapeshifting robots actually existed (and given how freaking enormous the universe is, they probably do somewhere) they'd probably be so alien that the average human wouldn't even be able to parse them. Like, humanoid bodies with two eyes a nose and a mouth where they speak out of? Yeah, that's probably gone. There's no real reason to go with that body design (even if they're quintesson or primus made; there are better form factors for a variety of things. Humans just look like humans because our formed filled a specific niche that was evolutionary advantagous to our ancestors.

As for transformers kissing; I'm ambivalent about it. While yes, it's definitely intended as quick shorthand for romance and doesn't make a lot of sense. (Unless it's something they picked up from all of the organics that are living on cybertron in this continuity, I guess), I don't think the story, art or characters would be better served if, say, Knockout and Breakdown transmitted a wifi greeting, or hooked a wire up between their heads, or whatever concept you'd want to come up with as an alternative to "these two characters are romantically involved."

I liken it to how Transformers can get drunk on energon. There's zero reason for this to be a thing, except as a means for human viewers to relate. And thus, what was a one episode gag in the G1 cartoon has allowed future writers to utilize it for humor, setting and even character development.

As I said, it's a push/pull and they unfortunately aren't always going to get the mix right for everyone. But that's just kind of the hazard of beings who have never actually met transforming alien robots trying to write transforming alien robots; they're going to come across as pretty dang human, or pretty dang weird.

 

That last page where everybody starts racing, Sizzle and Volt are at the top left corner.



But on second thought, "Volt" may or may not be Knockout and "Sizzle" may or may not be some unrelated guy I thought was Sizzle because he was next to what I thought was Volt.

Cybertronian modes are hard.  

 

What I'm saying is that in every other canonical property where these two characters have appeared, they have been a couple.

Therefore, even if this comic is its own canon, it isn't really necessary to develop the relationship from the meet cute to the wedding vows, because we've seen them as a couple three times before, and while there are many other TF canons where we don't see the relationship, that is because we do not see these characters at all.

There is another character named Breakdown and I think there's another character named Knockout, but the other KO is not this character, and the other Breakdown doesn't ever appear in a comic or show with Knock Out.

Because these two characters always appear together, and are always in a relationship, it would be stranger if they weren't than if they were.

How is it pandering to anyone to have an established relationship in a storyline?

At the beginning of each Transformers comic or show in which there are romances (which is all of them, so far as I can tell), some of them develop relationships, some of them have past relationships that they are no longer in, and some of them are already in relationships.

That's because at any time in any universe where there are people who have relationships, there will be single people and people in committed relationships that already exist.

The reason that I mentioned Elita and Optimus is because in every continuity where Optimus has had relationships, he has had one with Ariel/Elita, and it's usually in the past, so even if they get back together in a story, we will not see the entire relationship from beginning to end, and that is okay.

This is a bizarre leap of "reasoning".

I have never said that I was opposed to showing the development of any relationship, straight, gay, monogamous, polyamorous, familial, collegial, or otherwise. If IDW would like to give us a special Spotlight on how KO and BD met each other, and got together, and became junxies, I would totally support, buy and read that.

The point you keep missing is that established relationships are a thing. It isn't necessary for us to see the entire development of the relationship every time there are two characters who kiss in a story, because sometimes people who have already been together for a long time kiss.

This is not a story about how KO and BD got together. This is a story about the Wreckers. Their established relationship is in the background because it exists, but it is not the main focus of the plot. That is okay. They are just two characters in this story who are already in a relationship.

They are two guys who are kissing each other because they're in a relationship, and that's a normal thing that people in relationships do. Their romance story doesn't need to be told in this particular comic book any more than we need to know how Sam Witwicky's parents met and got together in the movies. I would be totally fine with reading their love story, but I'm also fine with having them already be junxies.

This is an important kind of representation, frankly. Showing a gay couple who are in an established relationship kissing each other in the background of a story is important because it shouldn't have to be explained that sometimes people are already coupled and kiss each other without going into a lot of fanfare about it, and then wander off to let each other do their jobs, trusting in their ability to do so even if it's dangerous. Because it isn't weird, it's just a part of normal life.

KO and BD are already together. KO knows BD can handle the situation he's in because he knows what BD is capable of--not because he doesn't care.

 

Oh for the love of GOD. GUYS it's just a Kiss. If you don't like it , get over it! You're not gonna change anyone mind that like the scene and no one going going to force you change your mind. So can we just move on from this topic or better yet. Start a new discussion on the subject and go argue there.

 

As I said, some of us don't want to see Transformers kissing each other on the lips become a trend. That's taking the humanised element too far. I'd also object to Elita-1 and Optimus Prime kissing, or Tigatron and Airazor, or Silverbolt and Blackarachnia.

Emotional romance is fine for Transformers, physical romance is not. I am sure all MTMTE readers were fine with Rewind and Chromedome's healthy relationship.

When cybersex becomes a thing in Transformers media, I'm done.

Its not even that. Its just the old classic thing of not everybody wanting to see public displays of affection, not even from fictional comic book and cartoon characters. I'm going to guess you were an avid watcher of the modern She-Ra show weren't you. Personally I didn't like the thought of 14 year old girls hooking up in a kids cartoon.

That's fine. We know energon isn't actually alcohol but we can accept that ingesting too much of it can be overpowering to them.

 

Pretty sure the black one with red stripes is Burn Out.

 

I'm still astounded that anyone needs this explained to them. Knock Out and Breakdown don't stop being in love when we're not seeing them. This isn't Shrödinger's Romance.

Ok, but some other people do. You're welcome to your own opinion, but "taking the humanised element too far" is still an opinion, and free to be ignored.

On the contrary, that's when I really become a superfan.  

I wasn't, actually. Thanks for making assumptions. And for the record, 14 year old girls have crushes and fall in love sometimes. Some of them even fall in love with other girls, like I did when I was that age. Not that Catra and Adora are 14 in the series, anyway.

 

What does that have to do with She-Ra? Wait, do you think those characters were children? The only one who was explicitly a child during the show was Frosta, dude. The rest of them were, officially, 18 or older at the start of the series. Might want to pick a better example if you're going to make statements like this.


Anyway, maybe don't drag this further off-topic.

 

transformers are humanized pretty often, get over it

 

Also this dude things romance has to involve hooking up, romance doesn’t have to include sex…

 

They were doing cheek kisses in 1984 with G1 and since we know they have lips and they can kiss, I'm pretty sure that battle was lost before it was ever started, because people who kiss on the cheek in public rarely don't kiss on the mouth in private unless they are parents and children.

I see you weren't reading the comics back then. There was kind of a lot of bitching about the gay in MTMTE from all the usual quarters.

You're already done. KO in TFP is following June Darby and Bill Fowler, who are alone in a car and behaving in a manner he thinks is flirtatious. He says, disparagingly, that he's afraid he will have to witness "human interface". From context it is very clear what he means by "interface" and from the adjective 'human' it's also quite clear that he means human interface as opposed to TF interface.

They don't call it cybersex. They call it interface.

Teenagers hooking up in comics and cartoons is an old problem. I read and watched the original Sailor Moon from 1992-1996, long before it was dubbed into English, so I do not know if these scenes were cut out for American viewers, but starting in the second season, 15 year old Usagi gets together with Mamoru Chiba, who is in college. By the third and fourth season when she is 16 and 17, they're not just kissing; they're shown sharing a bed in his apartment. But this is not relevant to Transformers.

None of the Transformers are teenagers; most of them are older than our species is.

And this is one kiss, not "hooking up".

More to the point, it's very common to see established couples in all kinds of media. Even in media for and about teens, where the teen characters are all single to start and who gets together during the story is a major aspect of the plot, some of the parents and teachers are married or living together in stable long-term relationships, and sometimes they kiss. The only explanation for the relationship that is given is "they're married" and/or "they made a teenager together, so they've been together for at least X number of years". People accept it. So it's frustrating when something like this is treated as weird.

There's an ugly stereotype that gay men aren't capable of stable long-term relationships. I always think it's dead until something like this happens, where people don't even notice heterosexual couples kissing in the background because it's common and "normal".

Nobody here is saying that you're being actively maliciously homophobic if you find the same action from two men distracting but the fact that you do find it distracting is a result of most people growing up in a culture where kissing in public might not even be safe for two gay men to do, and queer folks like seeing it treated exactly like heterosexual background kissing because that's how it should be treated--something that couples just do sometimes, and it's "normal" to see couples of all combinations.

 

Oh, we can do much better than that, far as examples of humanization go.

 

Your post is so bad. Like amazingly so. It’s not worth going in depth on, so enjoy a reel of your foolishness.
Me:I think the kiss didn’t fit. I would’ve liked to see more panels with their relationship.
You: BUT WHAT ABOUT DISNEY!
(So would you like my opinion on the weather as well or are you ready to engage in an actual conversation and address my points.)
Me: Literally suggests adding more scenes of the two interacting and comments positively on Arcee and Greenlight.
You: you obviously have a problem with gay relationships.

Well done. Excellent post. Never touch it please, I want to forward people to it in the future for fantastic examples of whataboutism and why some people aren’t worth talking to.

I’m not going to completely respond to everything, because it’s not really needed. We’re much closer in opinion than you think and I’ve been egging you on a little. Partially because you were throwing around baseless accusations.
I tend to make increasingly insane jumps of logic to get people to properly respond when they’re not engaging with logical arguments. But I appreciate this post even if you’re still not completely grasping what I’m saying. So let me help you out here.
Ultimately our discussion comes down to a single thing.
I want this piece of media to be complete. You are going in with preconceived notions and are willing to put some aside and others you take along for the ride. Neither is wrong.
We both want the kiss, but I would’ve liked to see some extra scenes between the 2. To really sell this big moment they’ve been given.
You’re fine with this as is. And that’s fine.
Is extra absolutely needed? Not really, as you said in pretty much all media they’re together in some way. But would the story be better for it. If you ask me Absolutely. It would be more complete without a doubt.
Let’s say someone who has never before seen Transformers and he/she picks it up.
Sure the kiss communicates “relationship” very clearly. But be honest, does it flow with the rest of the story? What reason does a new reader have to be happy that these two bots who have had 3 lines with the main cast and 0 lines between them are kissing?
As you rightly say, this isn’t their story.So why exactly are they front and center in that panel?
Maybe it’s just my black heart, but just a random kiss by two people, who in story, haven’t had any interactions doesn’t make me happy.

Maybe they’ll play a bigger role later in the story. I look forward to it.

 

And whats wrong with any of those? Consuming energon and optical leaking is fine. The Powerglide scene was cheesy, but I'm fine with emotional relationships as long as they don't feel forced and unnatural.

 

What is forced and unnatural about a kiss?

 

Okay, first of all I think you should stop playing trolly devil's advocate and apologise to Bee. You have been very rude to Bee.

If you make an argument that you think is logical and someone else does not think it is logical, they are not going to "engage" with it in a way that will satisfy you. Making your argument wilder, crazier and more accusatory in order to provoke a response will not make the other party think that your argument is logical.

That said,

Who in the world gets their first exposure to Transformers from an IDW comic about a specific subset of Autobots?

Nobody. It's theoretically possible for this to happen but in the real world where I live, most people have at least seen one of the Bay movies, an episode of the G1 cartoon, or a shelf of toys at Target or Wal-Mart.

Comic books are 28 pages long. That's why there are multiple Transformers comic books coming out every month and some of them specifically focus on certain characters and stories (like this one).

There's probably not room in this story for the the story of Breakdown and Knock Out's romance from first meeting to this kiss because the two of them and their relationship is not the focus of this story. If you want that, you should let IDW know that you want that.

As it stands, they are two characters in a story about the Wreckers that probably isn't a love story. Their marriage or relationship is a fact that exists in the franchise.

If you are looking for the story of their relationship from beginning to present, or the story of any other character's relationship from beginning to present, in this book, you are looking in the wrong place.

The nature of comic books is that plot threads are scattered among multiple books set in the same universe and you have to piece them together bit by bit. There will probably be other appearances of KO and BD in other books under the new IDW Transformers imprint, and possibly even in this series.

The reason I'm very irritated with your responses to me and more irritated with your responses to Bee is that you read comic books. And you know how they work. You know that when you pick up an issue from a comic book that has multiple interrelated series, there will be things in it that are not explained completely in those 28 pages, and some of them will not have been explained before.

Since you do know this, you're being ridiculous.

And what you call "baseless accusations" are questions I've invited you to ask yourself. I haven't accused you of anything except being rude (yet).

I've asked you to ask yourself if this relationship bothers you more than another relationship that is typical of most TF franchises and often assumed by the readers, and if so, why.

I've asked you to ask yourself why you can't just accept that established relationships are a part of reality, and if there's something going on with that.

(You've accused me of having a problem with showing the development of gay relationships, which I never said, and which was ridiculous of you, and I think you should apologise to me for that, but I'm not going to hold my breath. Don't fuck with other people when you're talking about subjects that are relevant to their real-world lives.)

Now I'm going to ask you why it's so important to you that this particular thing, of the many things that show up in a comic book in a special series about a small group of characters from a franchise that has multiple books running, get a full explanation immediately, and none of the other things that don't get explained in issue 2 of this series that's a side series to other Transformers comic books because of the nature of comic books provoke this reaction.

Again, that is not an accusation. You're the one who is saying that people definitely think or argue things that they don't think and didn't argue. This is a question. If you have a good answer, fine.

If you don't have a good answer, then I think you should ask yourself why. You don't have to provide me with the answer to either of those questions. I just want you to think about them and stop acting like people who have strong feelings are funny and deserve to be teased.

You've been here less than a month and you've made 5 posts. 4 of them are in this thread. Many of them have been insulting.

What's up with that, dude?

It's not the way to make friends. I have a reputation for being somewhat argumentative about some of these issues and there are certainly people on this site who don't like me, but I have friends here and I try to follow the rules even when I'm upset. I also post about other topics, like SS Soundwave's alt mode and colour schemes and Shattered Glass and worldbuilding speculations.

If you don't actually think this is a very big deal and you think our positions are similar, this is kind of a weird way to go about it. Take a break and read some of the other threads. This is literally one comic book for a franchise that has numerous comics and shows and books devoted to it. It can't be the thing you care most about here.