Will The Decepti-bar Ever Be Raised?

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by soundwaverulls, Nov 24, 2012.

  1. soundwaverulls

    soundwaverulls Taking a break

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2010
    Posts:
    9,999
    Trophy Points:
    277
    Likes:
    +1,486
    Interesting version of what I have to say.

    Before G1 media began, there was The Toys. They came from Japan and to market them towards boys, Hasbro made some good and others evil. This was so there could be a war. As the media was launched, it became apparent both sides were treated as characters. This continued throughout the franchises history until new word came from a director called Bay. And as this has effected the new show, is it too late?

    Boring but perhaps easier to understand version.​

    Transformers media being big toy commercials, has had at least one positive effect story wise: since the beginning of Transformers, both Autobots and Decepticons were treated as characters. Something which has earned both sides fans. However, recently, when the Decepticons have built up a reasonable fan base, Bay decided to turn the Decepticons into an army of faceless thugs who only exist to die, led by a bunch of nobodies who do nothing before they die. And, as Hasbro thinks everything needs to be copies of the movies, Transformers Prime Decepticons are the same though perhaps a very tiny bit better. Now you can't even find a fan film that doesn't have Decepticons being slaughtered.

    I understand that I can't expect the Decepticons to always win and that there will be some series when they won't win at all. But when the Decepticons are nobodies who exist only to die, I say things have gone to far.

    So I ask, do you think the bar will ever be raised back up for the Decepticons?
     
  2. Dinodigger97

    Dinodigger97 germinates within you.

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2011
    Posts:
    8,578
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    197
    Likes:
    +26
    The movies also lowered the levels for the Autobots. Optimus Prime(over the years) used to be a likable bot who honors his troops and stuff. Now he's just a slow talking Lincoln who can slice up them 'cons when he needs to. With no mercy,mind you. I mean, I LOVE Peter Cullen...but we need some change. Bumblebee also used to be a likable and enjoyable freelancer who you loved through and through, even if he got annoying at times. Now he's all BEEP BEEP BOOP BOOP *MOVIE QUOTE* *MOVIE QUOTE*!!!!
     
  3. Anguirus

    Anguirus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2009
    Posts:
    11,271
    News Credits:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    312
    Likes:
    +544
    Ebay:
    How about an army of faceless dudes led by compelling and charismatic individuals who just wrapped up their second season by making Autobot HQ into a smoking crater with Optimus Prime at the bottom?

    (Spoilers or whatever.)
     
  4. soundwaverulls

    soundwaverulls Taking a break

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2010
    Posts:
    9,999
    Trophy Points:
    277
    Likes:
    +1,486
    There's only three Decepticon characters in Prime, four if you count Soundwave who never does anything. And I'd hardly call Meg-Mad and his silent, faceless henchman in the background charismatic.

    And when the Decepticons were winning, all that went though my mind was "Oh for [email protected]#$ sake. Now Fowler can kill Decepticons!!" Many bad guys get victories at one point but that doesn't mean they're characters. In Star Wars V, the Empire destroyed the Rebel's base. That didn't make any of the Storm Troopers or Officers characters.
     
  5. Anguirus

    Anguirus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2009
    Posts:
    11,271
    News Credits:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    312
    Likes:
    +544
    Ebay:
    ^ Yeah, but it made the Empire a compelling and credible threat.

    I think in the first two seasons of the G1 cartoon a solid majority of the Decepticon roster was individually less competent than a single Prime Vehicon. The Coneheads might have actually been worse than useless. :lol 

    If I sound snarky it's because the mere suggestion that Prime Soundwave isn't a character is amazing. Plus, apparently you don't count dead/imprisoned guys as characters even when they were around for a season-plus but keep grinding your axe.

    Anyway, to answer your question, the Decepti-bar was raised in 2007 when I went to a movie and left with a police car phobia. It was raised again in 2011 when the Decepticons, for the very first time, actually acted like humans were a bunch of pathetic meat-sacks instead of just calling them that.
     
  6. soundwaverulls

    soundwaverulls Taking a break

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2010
    Posts:
    9,999
    Trophy Points:
    277
    Likes:
    +1,486
    But still, the empire were just the bad guys, not characters. And I guess the G1 Decepticons weren't that competent but at least they could go into battle without dieing.

    I can put up with snarkiness as long as it's accompanied with actual arguments which you are providing. And I don't count the deceased because they really did nothing. Breakdown was a thug with anything interesting going on with him dropped two episodes after it was introduced, Airachnid only appeared every now and then and each time changed what her role in the show was and Dreadwing only appeared in three episodes with important roles and three more with small roles and cameos in a few others. They'd be OK if it wasn't obvious they're getting faaar worse treatment than the Autobots. Soundwave, while still alive, has done the least of all the Decepticon characters.

    IMO the bar was lowed to the levels I'm talking about in 2009 when the Cons were unbelievably rubbish in every way in ROTF and again in 2011 when in DOTM, they had a small army consisting of about 30 ground troops, dozens of fighter craft, a handful of giant warships, their best general, the Autobot's best general, the only air warrior and their greatest assassin riding a giant Death Worm and yet still lost to a handful of Autobots and a bunch of humans.
     
  7. Spin-Out

    Spin-Out Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2009
    Posts:
    2,519
    Trophy Points:
    262
    Location:
    Florida
    Likes:
    +409
    Well, no shit they went into battle without dying. You weren't allowed to kill off characters in 80's cartoons, especially if they were twenty-two-minute toy commercials. That's why the movie killing off so many members of the cast was a shock.
     
  8. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP Be strong enough to be gentle

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2005
    Posts:
    88,705
    News Credits:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    462
    Location:
    agile house
    Likes:
    +58,507
    Oh for God's sake.

    If the Decepticons weren't characters we wouldn't have.... well, Decepticon characters like we do. You're thinking of cannon fodder, of which there has always been. G1's MTMTE opening was littered with generic Decepticons to pad out the ranks which were already smaller than the Autobots. I mean, the Autobots had waves of cars and minibots at the beginning, and the Decepticons had Megs, Soundwave, the Seekers and Reflector.

    Bay didn't change anything. This way of thinking has been around since the brand started.
     
  9. Anguirus

    Anguirus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2009
    Posts:
    11,271
    News Credits:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    312
    Likes:
    +544
    Ebay:
    Actually, no argument here. RotF fundamentally mishandled the "alien invasion" and aftermath, as well as the final battle. The 'cons were alarmingly toothless on that movie. In the other two I at least thought victory was fairly earned.
     
  10. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP Be strong enough to be gentle

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2005
    Posts:
    88,705
    News Credits:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    462
    Location:
    agile house
    Likes:
    +58,507
    Which is probably why they did the alien invasion again in DOTM to at least try and get it right. At the very least they had ships and stuff so their invasion looked a lot more "invady" than just a bunch of guys running across the desert.
     
  11. Rijie78

    Rijie78 Vinyl junkie.

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2008
    Posts:
    2,031
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    262
    Likes:
    +267
    While I offer no great defense of the Bay films (I like them visually & the first one was mostly good fun, but in every other respect I think they're dreadful) - I enjoy the idea that Hasbro are somehow helpless partners to the evil machinations of non-true fan Michael Bay and his pogrom of childhood destruction & blandification, and now they just copy what he laid down.

    Or, in the real world, Hasbro said somewhere in their immense list of brand guidelines, "you're not killing off any of our major characters unless we agree it, and for most of them, we don't. Now proceed, and let's sell more toys."

    It's the age old problem of mainstream toy/comic/fantasy properties being made into games, books, films whatever... and the answer to "we need a credible threat" is always (rightly or wrongly) "use faceless minions" & the very occasional sanctioned character death. It's always the brand owner that calls those shots.

    * digs out TFwiki "to sell toys" link *
    :D 
     
  12. NeverDoubt

    NeverDoubt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2012
    Posts:
    948
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Likes:
    +8
    Well Bay arguably took away any chance of their character development.
     
  13. bacon4e

    bacon4e Resident Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2012
    Posts:
    4,142
    Trophy Points:
    182
    Likes:
    +99
    I think the Decepti-bar has been raised as far as winning/losing record, but I'm less than optimistic about the whole faceless cannon fodder thing coming to an end. When I saw the first episode of prime I legitimately thought that the first two vehicons were individual characters, mainly because arcee called them twins, but anyway, I figured that this was the one show that didn't have the same pointless look-a-likes getting dismantled by a single blow, however, I was later proven wrong. on the same point, I believe Armada is the closest we're going to get to a completely balanced and character-filled cast. (keep in mind I said closest not exact) granted they had new characters coming in from left and right, and if the episode didn't focus on a character specifically, it kind of seeped into the background, but they were still good characters, including the best depiction of blurr besides animated
     
  14. soundwaverulls

    soundwaverulls Taking a break

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2010
    Posts:
    9,999
    Trophy Points:
    277
    Likes:
    +1,486
    I guess you have a point there. But at the same time, the Coneheads surviving the movie proves they weren't entirely useless.

    I don't think TFP Breakdown, Airachnid or Dreadwing were viewed as anything more than filler for the Cons' ranks. As soon as they had a handful of episodes, they were killed and replaced. Not something commonly done to characters nor something TFP's makers do to the Autobots or what few Cons they do have as characters.

    As for Decepticon generics being common, you pointed out one exception to them not being used. Outside of MTMTE, Five Faces of Darkness, the terrible Energon series and the brief reign of Starscream in Cybertron, when have Decepticon generics ever been used?
     
  15. bacon4e

    bacon4e Resident Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2012
    Posts:
    4,142
    Trophy Points:
    182
    Likes:
    +99
    Something I forgot to mention about Tfp. The death toll is now, assuming arachnid is dead, is 1-5 in favor of the 'bots
     
  16. Autovolt 127

    Autovolt 127 Get In The Titan, Prime!

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2006
    Posts:
    83,153
    News Credits:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    412
    Likes:
    +2,292
    The Decepticons are destined to lose but man they need to have a fighting chance at actually looking like they could actually succeed.
     
  17. Noise Maker

    Noise Maker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2008
    Posts:
    1,600
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    212
    Likes:
    +218
    "Aside from when generics were used, when were generics used?" That's flawless logic, right there.

    Buuut, yes, aside from all the times they were used that you already mentioned: How about in S3 of G1, with the Sweeps? How about that one episode when Seaspray became a mermaid? How about Reflector in many G1 S1 episodes? How about all those generics in War Dawn?

    How about all those generics that fought against Unicron in Armada? How about the Vehicons in BM (well, okay, not really Decepticons, but still)? How about the protoforms in the movies? How about the Constructicons?
     
  18. soundwaverulls

    soundwaverulls Taking a break

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2010
    Posts:
    9,999
    Trophy Points:
    277
    Likes:
    +1,486
    My point is that it's rare. I only listed four instances of it.

    Ok, good points although Reflector wasn't that much more of a generic than a large amount of other underdeveloped characters. but even with all those times, I still don't think it was as bad as DOTM and TFP.

    We were discussing before the films. Split Lip was saying they've been heavily used before Bay's films.
     
  19. Wheeljack_Prime

    Wheeljack_Prime Searching for the Infin-Honey Stones

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2008
    Posts:
    12,402
    News Credits:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    312
    Likes:
    +1,454
    Less than half ended up that way due to Autobot actions though.
     
  20. Spin-Out

    Spin-Out Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2009
    Posts:
    2,519
    Trophy Points:
    262
    Location:
    Florida
    Likes:
    +409
    Except Airachnid hasn't been confirmed to be dead, and Dreadwing actually did get some a satisfactory arc. I can't say the same for Breakdown, though.

    Here's a laundry list.