Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by decepticon seeker, Feb 15, 2020.
Paragons meaning I would choose Optimus Prime and Bumblebee as Paragons
Bro this thread lmao
I cannot hear what has only been typed.
But yes. I get your point. If you took offence to my attachment I did not mean it literally and at the bottom of my post I stated it was a joke.
Have a nice day.
The summer of 2017 had one of the worst ticket sales since records began, a situation that that was widely believed to be due to franchise fatigue for an overabundance of terrible sequels and reboots (such as Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Men Tell No Tales, Transformers: The Last Knight and The Mummy) and the popularity of Stranger Things and Black Mirror on Netflix, which offered an actually good alternative to the terrible films on the cinema without having to leave your home.
Audience tastes were changing - people were sick of pointless sequels and reboots being thrown at them. So, rather than shell out to see them all, they picked out the ones that seemed like they were actually good - Wonder Woman, Spiderman: Homecoming and Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 were all box office successes and had high critical and audience approval.
Whilst it didn't do as well as Dawn, War for the Planet of the Apes still made over three times its budget and was met with incredibly high critical and audience approval. That is a success.
Looking at the big picture, however, means you miss the details. Yes, it made $1.1 billion - over a quarter of which came from a single market. Domestically, and in most of the major international markets, it made substantially less than expected, compared to its predecessors. In most markets, compared to its predecessors, it was a box office disappointment - domestically, it was beaten by Guardians of the Galaxy, a film based on characters who general audiences were unfamiliar with.
In most of the European markets, AOE was up against How To Train Your Dragon 2 and Dawn of the Planet of the Apes - you'd have expected AOE to beat them easily. However, not only did both those films do as well as AOE, but in most of the major European markets (e.g. the UK, France and Spain), they actually did better than AOE. For example, in the UK, the box office for AOE was £33.1 million (by comparison, the first film made £48.6 million). The UK box office for HTTYD 2 was £41.5 million and Dawn of the Planet of the Apes made £55.2 MILLION.
From that, Paramount should have realised that fans, critics and general audiences were getting sick of Bay's style. Sadly, they didn't.
So why is one movie making three times its budget in revenue a success, but a movie making five times its budget in revenue not a success?
Not to mention the greatest indicator of audience approval by far is box office. Many millions more people worldwide went to the first three Transformers sequels than Dawn of the Planet of the Apes, which barely beat out the 2007 movie. And as for audience reviews, since you don't even need to watch a movie to rate it on many websites, Cinemascore ratings from people who actually saw them were the same for Dawn and Age; they both were given an "A-" score. I'm sorry, but you don't make 1.1 billion dollars unless many tens of millions of people are interested in your movie.
No it does not, because so many fans miss the forest for the trees! Especially when I acknowledge the details.
This is completely pointless and a total changing of goalposts. So because it was extremely successful in a particular country, a country where box office had already been rising tremendously for the series in previous sequels, all of a sudden that's some point against it? Bullshit.
But which film made more profit and more box office worldwide? Age of Extinction. That is not up for debate.
I happen to be a fan of both Guardians and Age of Extinction, and while the former was more successful in the States, the latter was absolutely the most profitable and successful film box office-wise in 2014. There is no doubt Guardians was also a major box office success, but it still made less money overall.
And even if it made less domestically than expected, because I do remember what its box office predictions were like domestically, where in the world are these box office "expectations" from before it was released for other countries outside of the U.S.? I never saw them.
Your argument makes ZERO sense.
So because two movies made more box office in certain countries than another movie, the latter movie which made much more overall, those several markets are somehow indicators of the whole? Answer: they are not.
It's also kind of ironic, because How to Train Your Dragon was predicted by some to be much more successful than it was, so if box office predictions versus actual box office is the metric we're using, then HTTYD is a failure. Box Office Mojo predicted a 325 million domestic take! Summer 2014 Forecast - Box Office Mojo
And here is how the domestic predictions were graded: Grading Mojo's Summer 2014 Forecast - Box Office Mojo
Interestingly, I would say the predictions for both Apes and Transformers were actually kind of the similar, in the sense that the domestic take was moderately overestimated, and the international take was underestimated. So in that regard, Apes and Age of Extinction are quite similar.
I don't think a movie's success should be based on box office predictions, because predictions can be based on subjectivity. I think success should be based on the reason studios make movies: money, which have actual numbers attached. And by that metric, the first four Transformers were HUGE box office successes, including Age of Extinction. Anyone claiming otherwise is full of shit. People claiming AoE was not a financial success are just fans butthurt that the movies continued after DotM and the fans parroting those fans to jump on the bandwagon.
Not just this thread, tho...
Because from the outset you are only seeing that 1.1 Billion number and completely ignoring everything else involved.
Just because it made 1.1 Billion at the global box office does not mean that's how much the movie actually made in net profit. Not even close.
I mean, by your logic, TLK should have been a smashing success even at $650+ million total box office given that's more than its budget...except we've had it confirmed multiple times over the movie was a crippling failure for Paramount that nearly destroyed the company to the tune of being $100 million in the red.
And where, pray tell, were those fans for TLK, hmm?
At no point have you acknowledged that AoE was significantly tooled exclusively for the Chinese box office. Right down to that stupid juice box. I mean, Hasbro is still doing this pandering to China, since they have that 'Journey to the West' Transformers thing going on, and while Journey to the West is huge in China, I bet you don't even know who Sun Wukong is.
Nor have you ever acknowledged that AoE was released in a year without a single other major blockbuster anywhere near its release window. There's a reason it was the only film that crossed the billion dollar threshold in 2014. To go off what I said earlier, its not hard to win a race...when you're the only contestant.
No, it's not, because this is exactly why TLK failed the way it did. Paramount thought Transformers was a complete lock in China given AoE's performance, so they went ahead with TLK using the same threadbare plot structure but without the massive amount of in-country promotion or contracts with the Chinese government.
And how much profit did AoE make, since now I'm not entirely sure you even understand the difference between profit and box office.
Let's see some hard numbers, then, because all you are doing is spouting words making AoE sound like the best goddamn thing produced by mankind
Nobody saw them, because the domestic box office predictions typically are far more important given more money is made per dollar in the domestic market than internationally.
If you're going to cite outside links then actually reference the films, because that's talking about HTTYD 2, not the first one.
All I got out of that is the site admitting they fucked up their predictions on a bunch of criteria that is questionably relevant to this discussion.
If you actually believe that money alone is the only metric worth measuring, then I have some Enron stock to sell you.
From the outset, you have bashed AoE every chance you get. You even admitted that your hatred of it was irrational. Transformers: The Last Knight TV Spot at Super Bowl?
Never have I implied that 1.1 billion was the profit the movie made, but it absolutely was profitable. After advertising costs are accounted for and the percentage studios took home, it was still profitable. It was the most profitable movie of 2014: Most Profitable Movies Of 2014: What Made Most At Box Office & Beyond? – Deadline
Did I ever imply 600 million was a good number for The Last Knight? Absolutely not.
That's a question for which there might be a million answers, but regardless of the answers, we can't project our own preferences onto millions of general audience members.
1. It wasn't tooled "exclusively" toward China; they still had many markets in mind.
2. The movies had already been increasing in Chinese box office significantly: from 37 million for the 2007 film to 65 million for RotF to 195 million for DotM! That last rise is HUGE! Even without the Hong Kong setting, Transformers 4 still would have made plenty of money in China.
I have already said in previous posts that the setting very well may have boosted numbers in China, but I think it's sill to suggest that's the only reason it was successful.
But there absolutely were other major films released that year: The Hobbit, Winter Soldier (part of a rising franchise), and so on. Yeah, it may be a smaller selection compared to more recent years, but it was still the only film to break a billion that year.
But here's the thing: the previous three movies didn't have plots that were any less threadbare. The 2007 movie had the Autobots and Decepticons wanting a pair of glasses that Megatron etched the coordinates on for some unknown reason...while being trapped in the Arctic ice after (allegedly) losing his telemetry from the magnetic field...even though the Allspark was nowhere near the Arctic...and even though every other robot in the films has no problem landing where they need to unless shot down! And yet, that's a major point of the movie! You see what I mean? If anything, that is flimsier than anything in AoE.
RotF (which I love by the way)? You yourself once considered RotF one of the worst things in Transformers! Top 5 Worst ideas in Transformers
The earlier movies were not these narratively robust movies. They had most everything people complained about AoE and TLK, and often in often greater quantities or degrees.
Already addressed, and again, you make a false claim about me based on absolutely nothing.
Have I ever said it's the best thing ever made? No. My point is that it an underrated, underappreciated part of the Bay movies that has many redeeming qualities that are ignored or dismissed. It's not perfect, but it is a Shrektastic Transformers story and adventure! Maybe it should be called Art of Shrextinction? And I have already given you hard numbers.
But here's the thing: if domestic box office is the most important, then why are some members bringing up box office from other countries that likewise don't result in any more studio profit than other countries?
Given the context I was talking from (movie predictions for 2014!), I think it should be obvious I was talking about the sequel and not the original.
But I'm not the one who was using predictions as a metric for success. That was other members. I'm just using box office predictions to show that the other "more successful" movies (even though they didn't make as much money) weren't any more successful if box office predictions and how they align with results are the standards for box office success.
It is the metric most important in terms of how studios view their movies.
That said, I enjoy AoE and other Bay movies, because I enjoy them for what they are. The profits they made has nothing to do with my personal enjoyment.
Except it's not totally pointless - AOE was a box office disappointment both domestically and in the vast majority of international markets... except for its runway success in China.
Domestically, it was beaten by Guardians of the Galaxy, a film based on characters who nobody's even heard of, and Captain America: The Winter Soldier, which paired Chris Evans' Captain America and Scarlett Johansson's Black Widow, both of whom were widely considered to be the weak points of The Avengers (2012).
Internationally, the story wasn't much better. In most of the European markets, AOE was up against How To Train Your Dragon 2 and Dawn of the Planet of the Apes, films that you'd have expected AOE to beat easily. However, not only did both those films do as well as AOE, but in most of the major European markets (e.g. the UK, France and Spain), they actually did better than AOE. For example, in the UK, the box office for AOE was £33.1 million (by comparison, the first film made £48.6 million). The UK box office for HTTYD 2 was £41.5 million and Dawn of the Planet of the Apes made £55.2 MILLION.
As @Autobot Burnout previously said, AOE was extensively tooled for a Chinese audience. The final act is entirely set in Hong Kong, there's cameos from local celebrities and product placement for Chinese brands. To say it wasn't heavily leaning on the Chinese market is disingenuous at best.
Exactly - Paramount should have looked at the bigger picture and realised that fans, critics and general audiences were getting sick of the Bay style - the thin plots, incoherent action sequences and potty humour were alienating any other demographic rather than the mindless teenage demographic from the franchise, especially family audiences, who are the ones most likely to buy Transformers toys. There's a reason why the AOE toyline didn't sell well.
For parents with young kids, why squirm in your seat whilst the Transformers film spends five minutes discussing statutory rape laws in Texas, when you can go and see How To Train Your Dragon 2 instead? Your child will not be privy to uncomfortable discussions about inappropriate topics, mature topics are handled with actual nuance and you're going to enjoy yourself a lot more, too.
For parents with older kids who might want to expose them to something a bit more sophisticated, Dawn of the Planet of the Apes offers a more compelling, character-driven film, which tells a story with deep themes about forgiveness and the corrupting power of hatred, as well as how the prejudices of a few individuals can destroy the peaceful intentions of the majority. As well as totally lacking discussions about statutory rape laws in Texas.
And in August, both the above demographics could watch Guardians of the Galaxy - where there's enough action to keep the older kids entertained and enough bright colours and funny lines to keep the little ones happy.
Again, you're acting as if it was this failure and projecting based on how it did in specific markets to most of the world, when it was factually, undeniably a huge financial success. You then use Apes as an example, when Apes likewise didn't meet box office projections in some markets (the United States) and made much less money overall than AoE. I even pointed out how BOTH, based on some predictions, underperformed moderately in the States but did better overseas than predicted. Because that's some double standard bullshit taking the film that made LESS money and holding it up as an exemplar of "greater" box office success. Yes, Dawn of the Planet of the Apes was a success...but it didn't take as much revenue as AoE, nor did it create as much profit as Age of Extinction. These aren't debatable points. These are inarguable facts. Not, "I really liked the Apes movies, and it made more in several countries, so it was a bigger box office success than Age of Extinction." THAT is why the big picture is much more important.
Who cares? Why repeat the same damn shit and argue the same irrelevant points ogre-and-ogre again, as if what Apes did in the U.K. box office has jack squat to do with anything?
Holy shit, the delusion and/or dishonesty on display is mind boggling, because I already acknowledged the possibility the setting increased box office, BUT it absolutely was far from the only reason AoE was a success.
"Disingenuous" describes you and Autobot Burnout failing to recognize that the Chinese box office had risen tremendously from RotF to DotM. Consequently, it's entirely conceivable AoE would have done gangbusters in China even without the setting in the final acts.
The "bigger picture" is that the first four movies were huge financial successes. Anyone claiming otherwise is either 1) in denial, 2) a liar, or 3) out of touch with reality and lives in a dream world where emotions are more important than facts. The idea in the fandom that Age of Extinction was a financial failure is a lie or delusion of astronomical scale.
More like, "less than a minute." Way to exaggerate to make a point that is not even true.
Stop the projection, FFS. You don't speak for me or everyone else.
Frankly, I enjoyed Age of Extinction a lot more than HTTYD 2.
Stop repeating the same damn exact words over-and-over again. Is all you do just copy and paste what you and others wrote?
And I thought this forum had become rather stale as of late
Frankly, I think it still is stale. Time for another Shrekformers or Jaegertron kind of thread!
So UNICRON can wipe out this diseased planet and we all move to Cybertron.
Jeez why do we need to be faithful to G1 can't we instead be original rather than oversaturating a reboot with G1 references also why when people complain about the movies not being faithful to G1 is like complaining of barnyard because the cows have utters
I personally want bayformers 6 last knight was interesting and i want to see how they would do unicron because you have to admit that was a heck of a cliff hanger. Almost wish they started with that story though.
Except, the big picture doesn't tell all the story.
I absolutely agree with you that AOE was very successful overall - it was the highest-grossing film of 2014 and almost a quarter of a billion domestically is nothing to sneeze at, Yes, AOE was closer to a best-case scenario than a worst - however, it was not an optimum scenario.
The optimum scenario (heh) would have been AOE, both domestically and in all international markets, making similar numbers to the previous instalments. What actually happened wasn't an optimum scenario by any stretch of the imagination.
China aside, AOE made substantially less than expected both domestically and in many major international markets, when compared to its predecessors. Both domestically and in most international markets, AOE underperformed quite substantially. Whilst AOE was a success when you consider the worldwide box office, in individual markets, there was a net decrease.
Conversely, both domestically and internationally, Dawn grossed significantly higher than Rise, its predecessor. Whilst it underperformed moderately in the US, it still made higher than its predecessor - and in pretty much all major international markets, Dawn did better than Rise.
The point is, given how popular the Transformers franchise is (and how successful the previous films had been), you would expect AOE to cream those two films easily. However, in the major European markets, it did not - not only did Dawn of the Planet of the Apes and How To Train Your Dragon 2 do as well as AOE, but in many major European markets, they actually did better than AOE.
In the UK, the previous three films had been consistent at around about £45 million - based on that, you'd have expected AOE to make similar numbers. However, it only made £33.1 million - that's a massive drop and one that can't be explained by the longer gap between sequels. I used the UK as an example because I live there.
Whilst I am not a parent, I do have many younger relatives (mostly cousins and second cousins) - I feel far more comfortable showing them HTTYD 2 than I would AOE. For the over 10's, I feel far more comfortable showing them Dawn of the Planet of the Apes. And that's important because Transformers should primarily be for families with kids, the demographic who Transformers toys are aimed at.
While I agree with refraining from the potty humor and other inappropriate things, (that stuff should only be in R movies.) But I personally loved the violence so, I don't want it to be kiddie. Hell, Bumblebee was more marketed towards a younger audience but it still had the same Bayverse violence.
But whether a film is hugely profitable due to its financial markets combined is more important to a studio than whether it was a success in specific markets or not.
I am glad you acknowledge it's a financial success, but I would argue an optimum scenario is not always, if ever, realistic. If anything, I think that the fourth movie made almost as much as DotM worldwide when it actually had many things going against it, like Shia and Megan Fox gone, many famous robots dead, and being the fourth movie in a franchise that had been panned by most critics, is why it's a best-case scenario realistically.
But you see, in the end, it's kind of pointless comparing the different franchise films and the box office films in specific countries, because in the end, the studios care about whether they made a profit for the films or not and not whether some separate film made more box office in specific markets. Age of Extinction was a financial success regardless of how other films that year did. Dawn of the Planet of the Apes was a financial success regardless of how its successor did or other movies that summer did.
That's all fine and dandy. A case can definitely be made that Transformers movies should aim for a younger audience, but I don't think adults should base the base the success of the previous movies nor their personal enjoyment based on whether kids would like them. I don't base my enjoyment of movies on whether some younger relatives would enjoy them. I have different tastes from kids, but that's okay.
TL; DR - by this logic, its absolutely okay with showing children stuff related to the legality of underage sex, because adults should not use their own 'personal enjoyment' based on how kids would react to such content.
Amazing that we can now link that supremely uncomfortable topic to Transformers all thanks to AoE.
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