Instead, we have movies where a robot humps a woman's leg and where a robot pees on a man.

I could list more examples, but those two perfectly illustrates my point.

 

Those movies also had high-concept sci-fi elements - the sort of things Bumblebee lacked, to its detriment.

Without the gross, brainless violence and even more gross, brainless humour, we'd have five solid sci-fi movies.

 

Claiming someone isn't a real transformers fan just because they enjoy a certain interpretaion of the franchise is wrong. We all know the movies had issues but it's still transformers wether you like it or not.

 

I think he meant general cinema goers.

 

?

It's because it's fact. Period. Fap to the Bayverse movies all you want, doesn't make them categorically better.

Let me tell you my experience with TF2. I had no interest in seeing it as I could tell the Movieverse was going to be something I disliked but my English professor made watching it an assignment so she could get a "long time fan's" opinion in debate form, so I went with my family to see. What I was treated to was attempting to explain to my then 8 year old daughter why a blender turned into a Mickey Mouse robot who was ejaculating lasers out of a gigantic missile penis.

THAT RIGHT THERE is the moment that is indefensible to ANY human being with an iota of common sense. This is first and foremost a children's toy franchise, and the movies eviscerated that starting point to the nth degree. Such great concepts to expose children to: pot brownies, dry humping legs, scantily clad blonde seductresses, missile penises, wrecking ball testicles... Hell, just the number of overt moments of objectifying women should be enough to give one pause, but you don't, because Bayverse I guess...

Wow.

You seriously think that, don't you?

Read the whole thread before posting next time, this exact point was addressed where it was misinterpreted by several BEFORE you before someone (me) showed everyone what was meant. Makes you make less of a fool of yourself or your reading comprehension skills.

See? This guy got it.

 

These threads come up periodically, and the inference is always anyone who likes the Bayverse films is an idiot and/or not a real tf fan, so mine like others' patience wears thin.

I watch the G1 film a few times per year but it is what it is; heck I even manage a once through G1&2 most years. I will quite happily chuck the Bay films on regularly whilst in my gym etc or media room.

I struggle to enjoy bumblebee but it has given us some epic toys inc the best mainline Prime figure along side siege earthrise prime.

 

@G1Prowl has made good and bad points here.

​

To this, I would add horrific violence - Prime ripping the Fallen's face off is bad-fucking-ass when one is a twelve-year-old boy. It is not bad-fucking-ass when one is babysitting one's seven-year-old cousin and is searching for appropriate films to watch.

We ended up watching Guardians of the Galaxy; two hours spent watching a film that was genuinely exciting and funny rather than me having to explain why the "heroic Autobots" were screaming "LET'S GO KILL SOMETHING!" before dismembering, mutilating and... whatever word exists for ripping out someone's eye through their throat-ing their enemies.

In fact, I've shown a lot of MCU films to younger relatives - there's nothing in them that is inappropriate for a seven-year-old. They appeal to family audiences - they appeal to kids and the inner child in every adult.

​

This overt sexualisation - especially in ROTF and DOTM - of the female characters ended up alienating a lot of female fans. I will contrast the first and last Bayverse films and my experiences seeing them.

When I was ten and the first Transformers came out, all the girls in my class went to see it and they enjoyed it just as much as the boys did. To us, it was a unigendered thing.

A decade later, when my older sister and I went to see TLK, she was the only woman in the room - and we had to change seats because some arsehole fourteen-year-olds behind us were implying that my sister was an [awful slur for transsexuals] because she was a woman going to see a Transformers movie.

 

Again by real fans I meant casual goers who dont care for the franchise I went to see 3 fast and furious movies but that doesnt make me a fan I didn’t mean to offend anyone who enjoy these movies because I like the first one,second only forest battle and some scenes,third not that bad 4 and 5 terrible

 

It's alright, buddy.

However, implying that casual moviegoers somehow do not "matter" or their opinions are invalid, compared to so-called "real fans" is not the smartest thing to do.

And, as @Galvatross has pointed out, fans who enjoyed the Bayverse in its better moments (much as I did) are just as much fans as those who only liked the first movie and Bumblebee or hate all the movies with a seething passion except the '86 one.

I didn't much care for Beast Machines, for instance, but I understand that there are people who do. Conversely, I absolutely loved the IDW run from beginning to end, but understand there are people who do not.

We all have different tastes - some people do prefer "cool action scenes and badass robots" as opposed to actual plot and characterisation, and, if they behave themselves, they shouldn't be judged for it.

 

That makes sense, I understand your feeling, but I feel posts like your original one, don’t do much for the cause.

 

I grew up on these films and they're what got me involved with other things like G1. If you remove the sexism, and crappy sex jokes, there's some cool stuff. However, I don't agree with the Bayverse vs Geewunner feud and I think that hurts the fandom more than any bombed bay flick.

 

And the Bayverse movies are what they are and what they are is just as silly as the 1986 movie (if not more). The old Transformer movie has robots dance around a campfire while a cheesy song plays, and the newer movies have robots peeing on humans and humping legs. It's just different kinds of silliness.

I consider the '86 movie's brand of silliness to be much more appropriate for the franchise because the Bayverse's brand of silliness prevents me from watching the movies with my niece and nephew. The way the female leads are treated is alone enough to disqualify it from our movie night list. That's another discussion, though.

 

We need to stop asking for higher standards, we need to demand them. Period.

Gatekeeping can run its course, quickly. We're too busy alienating outsiders and each other and we forget that these are nothing more than commercials to sell toys. I don't know how many times I have to make this argument, I'm getting ready to superglue it to the end of a hammer and start swinging it at people. We fight with each other over toys, ultimately. TOYS. We're grown, adults. Shame on us for thinking we could have something weighty out of what was basically a long-form commercial. Can we really have some depth in these stories? Sure. Are we crazy for expecting Oscars? YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT. (Well, aside from visual effects.)

I think we need to be reasonable and temper our expectations, and treat our fellow human beings decently.

Your 14-year-old cousin reminds me of 14-year-old me all those years ago: A kid with idiotic thought processes and word vomit trying to grow without proper direction. No one's directly involved with their children anymore and this example proves exactly what the criticisms have been trying to say all along. Transformers has always been for kids, first and foremost. When you start getting kids like your cousin saying things like that, it should be a sign to ANYONE that we've lost our way with this series and took a wrong turn and it needs to be righted ASAP. When a kid says "we didn't need those kids in the audience!" that's a big problem, and kind of laughable when you think about it. (And not in a good way.)

As for the example with your sister... I'm genuinely sorry you two had to experience that. Again, no one's giving their children proper direction. The world is awful and parents are a big part of the problem.

That we do. It needs to stop. That said, pandering to casual moviegoers and general audiences ALL the time isn't conducive to a win, either. Even general audiences can be just as awful as the smug gatekeepers. Too many people saying "that's not MY Transformers" when it should be written well enough that it's accessible for all, not just pandered to all/some.

I think the fake/real fan thing needs to die. So what if a general audience goer says "Oh, yeah, I'm a fan! Well, no, I don't collect the toys. No, I don't read the comics..."? So what if a "fan" does do all of those things? How are they different, really? Basically, one's socially awkward and doesn't bathe before going to a convention, the other's actually worried about such things and takes care of themselves... Oh, and they're both human. The whole real/fake thing needs to go and people should be kneecapped for getting all butthurt over such a silly thing. "Oh, no! Someone likes my Star Wars! Someone likes my Star Trek! Someone likes my Transformers! They've only seen the movies (or shows or comics or...), they're FAKE!" *WHAM*

You're more than entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine. The first Bay movie was far from decent and I have no really fond memories of it other than "oh, they're finally REAL! YES!" for a brief, fleeting period of time. (And yes, to this day, the alley transformation scene is still one of the most breathtaking moments for me. It brought the magic.) Granted, you're right about the whole "It's not G1..." arguments. Though, I will say you could look at that argument from another perspective and have it be factually accurate... It isn't G1 and that IS a problem. Bumblebee was closer in tone to G1 and it worked better with critics and audiences and most fans. People get so caught up in the aesthetics of G1 vs Bayverse, but that can be a separate argument or a different aspect that doesn't always have to be focused on.

That's not entirely true, as I just pointed out, above. Also, not true because the criticism IS warranted and evidence-based. It wasn't just fans saying "oh, it doesn't look G1, it sux!", it was critics saying "I can't make heads or tails of 'em. They look like a bunch of car parts sent through a blender that somehow turned into a robot. Much like the film, they're all an incomprehensible mess." If you removed Prime's antennae and his face mask, got rid of Peter Cullen as Optimus Prime (or worse, made them mute as they originally intended) but kept everything the same, could you really say he was recognizably Optimus? In all honesty, no. He'd be a flame-adorned truck that turns into a robot. They can tell us he is, but no. It's one of the legitimate arguments people made about Starscream and Megatron. Do we know they're who they are, now? Yes, of course. Did we, then? No. We had to be told who they were and we had to see the film and them in action before it clicked. G1's not perfect and deviations from it can be a good thing to some degree, but there was such a monumental change to the Transformers in the movies that we kind of lost track of who and what was in it. Now, imagine a critic and the general audience coming in through Bayverse. G1, especially tone and feel, would've helped a great deal. Bumblebee is proof of that.

I personally do like the TF designs in the film, I have a good majority of what SS has released thus far and I think they're really nice figures. I don't hate the designs, I don't hate the characters (Sam, Leo, yeah.) But I'm not going to make up falsehoods to try and make a point. (Not saying you are, but plenty do. It can be argued and countered and that's what causes a lot of strife in these arguments.)

If nothing else, G1 tone (or something close to it) is necessary for Transformers to be successful on the big screen. Without it, the whole thing falls apart as we've clearly seen.

No. He didn't. He made the lowest common denominator movies that appealed to the cave dweller in all of us. His pre and post Transformer films are just as bad. 6 Underground was kind of fun in some scenes, but was otherwise a "meh" romp and felt like classic Bay. Is that a good thing? It might've been in the 90s, not so much, anymore.

The G1 movie and I say this as a fan of G1 and Transformer movies, is awful. The animation is terrible (though the character designs are lovely and sharp), the music is hairband (but fun), the story is boring, and it's basically mass murder to sell new toys (which backfired in their faces), so no. It's not a good movie. That said, just because it's not a good movie, doesn't mean the Bayverse films are. Bumblebee, while imperfect, was the closest we got to an actually good Transformers film. Visually, tonally, it worked better with audiences and critics. Needs a bit more oomph and less downtime in the middle, sure, but they finally found a way to make the formula work. I think the next film will have the G1 feel, but enough Bayhem to keep everyone happy.

BINGO. I'm embarrassed to show these films to my kids. Bumblebee wasn't perfect, but it was certainly safer and arguably better to show a family than leg-humping, gyrating to kill, drooling and snarling robots chasing after a MacGuffin, constantly. Let's not forget the racism and sexism and bigotry as a whole.

What?! All of the films borrowed from G1. DOTM? The Ultimate Doom. ROTF's Sun Harvester? Fire On The Mountain. The closest the Bay films came to having a coherent plot and a pretty good basis for a story was Age Of Extinction. The government conspiracy? The Apple-like tech guru who ripped off his ideas? The fight to survive because they're living beings and not someone's product? Great ideas. Executed badly. (And the whole scene that shall not be mentioned. Good grief, there was no need for that.) Bumblebee was high-concept. A homeless alien on the run from a dangerous force happens to make a friend and together they save themselves and the world. You want better than that? Pretty much any Data-centric episode of TNG. "Measure Of A Man" is a perfect example. The closest we got to that was the talk between Cade and Optimus inside the barn when he was repairing him.

Without the gross, brainless violence, and even more gross, brainless humor, we'd have five really short movies with a runtime of about 30 minutes each. Oh wait, we already have that... it's called the cartoon series.
Bumblebee was the first film in the entire franchise to actually go beyond what shackles had been put on the films before it. It shouldn't have taken eleven years (11!) to get to that point. They worked backward, much as DCU did, and botched the whole dang thing. You start out small and draw people in and then end with mindless extravaganzas. (Fast And Furious franchise, anyone?)

This. Fapping to G1 and Bumblebee doesn't make them categorically better, either. (Though, you'll feel less sleazy if you do. Bayverse is like a dessert that's made of the lowest of the low ingredients. It tastes great, but you feel like garbage afterward and you gained 20 pounds for 20 seconds of enjoyment. lol)

Oh, gosh. That's exactly what I'm hoping to avoid. I know how you feel, that's cringeworthy just reading it. Yeah, that right there is one of the biggest problems with Transformer films. It's just filled with garbage filler to pander to people they believe want filth and they ended up being wrong.

YES! PREACH IT!

I don't think anyone who likes Bayverse is an idiot. It has its audience, I was once a member of it. That said, the idiocy comes from those interacting with one another in the WAY they choose to. Arguments can be made for both sides of the issue, valid ones, even but people tend to take what's said as a personal attack and tend to respond in kind. Although, in some cases, people do actually attack personally, first, because someone dissed Bayverse at all and that's never going to be a great way to get the issue discussed properly.

Attacking people over toys and movies IS idiotic, and that goes in both directions.

*nods* Yeah, I'm not sure why Bay thought slasherflick/torture porn was a great idea for a film based on a commercial to sell kids toys was a great idea. Prime pulling Grindor's head in two? Good grief. Some of the Saw movies didn't even go there, at first. (Seriously, WTF?)

Yeah, we helped fuel and fund that horrible situation. We should be ashamed of ourselves. We talk about voting with our wallets, it's time we actually do so.

Eh, I'm 50/50 on that. While, yes, everyone's entitled to an opinion and their voices can be heard, I'm not sure a casual moviegoer has as much right to discuss the inner workings of it all as much as we do. That doesn't make them fake fans, but I'm not going to take their opinion as the end all/be all of Transformers in film, either. (Heck, some "real" fans aren't worth listening to, either.) The problem with aiming a movie at everyone is that one size fits all does not always work, given the source material. Can Transformers be that? Yes, but in the proper hands of someone who actually cares and desires to make a real effort. I'll give Bay credit for his work ethic and his loyalty to those he works with, it's wonderful. That's about the long and short of it, though. Once behind the camera, it falls apart and he goes with the general audience, rather than respecting the source material. Listening to casual fans and general audiences will only get you so far and TLK is proof that they went TOO far.

Bumblebee is a perfect example of a director and writer(s) listening to the audience AND fans AND respecting the source material. It wasn't that hard, really.

That said, saying opinions don't matter is not good form in any direction. Resting on them like a crutch isn't good, either.

The problem is, more often than not, NONE of us behave ourselves. I'm not sure what it is, but we are compelled to drive one another nuts and get personal and swipe at one another and it's terrible to do so. Period. And no, it's not just our fandom, but this is the one we're in, we're experiencing it, and we need to be better. PERIOD. We've got to stop. So, someone likes Bayverse? Okay. So, someone likes G1? Okay. So, they don't like both (or they do)? Okay. Agree to disagree and leave it at that. No one, not ONE, can stick to that. It's always "Wait. What? NO! F*CK YOU! I'm right, you're wrong, because it's awesome that (insert character) did (heinous thing) to (insert character) because this is an alternate universe!" (I actually made this argument many times, in the past. With much regret, now.) It made me look stupid and selfish. It IS stupid and selfish.

There's SOME cool stuff, yes, but not enough to carry a film (let alone a film series). That's the problem. They're too much filler and sadly the filler made out of bigotry and stupidity sold for a good long while. (Shame.) The feud is terrible, yes. It won't get better until people become better and stop attacking people because they have an opinion that's different from theirs. No one can ever just say, and stick to, "I agree to disagree. Let's move on." they just have to bludgeon one another and tear each other down. It'll never, ever get better until we come to terms with the fact that people can attack what we enjoy without attacking us. We're allowed to like or dislike something without it personally offending someone. They CHOOSE to be personally offended and then attack each other.

Cracking on a movie or character is not the same as cracking on a fellow fan. I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp for people. (My past self, included.)

 

Just a preemptive warning for this thread to chill out. You can always tell the problem ones ahead of time. There is absolutely no need for this kind of hostility anymore, considering the Bayverse is over- there is nothing at "stake" should the Bayverse supporters "win" the argument.

We're all here because we love the same franchise and it's disheartening to know that pretty much every day, the movie forum will need such a close watch.

 

Which is the important part, the Part 6 or the Michael Bay? Cause the two don't necessarily go together.

TF6 could do with Unicron cracking out of the ground, humans visiting/invading Cybertron, Quintessa and Megatron make further plans.

Bay... I think he's had enough. He's done 5 films.

 

Maybe because two cliffhangers isn't enough

 

Because they like it.

 

You know what you get when you mix 5 gallons of ice cream with 5 gallons of manure?

I think it hurts it more to slander one side and not the other. Actually, slandering one side at all...

 

If you have to punch so far below the belt so as to compare modern multi-million dollar blockbusters to a weak 80's cash-in toy shill, then clearly Bay's movies are not so entertaining. (and many would argue said cash-in 80's movie is still more entertaining than any of Bay's offerings. At least TF:TM didn't give me a headache, and I actually hate that movie)

 

This . . . is . . . perfect.