Why I think the expanded universe will fail

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by LegionofMordor, Sep 28, 2015.

  1. Rodimus Prime

    Rodimus Prime Sola Gratia, Sola Fide TFW2005 Supporter

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    :lol 

    The reason the "universe" concept will probably fail, is that the series doesn't have the creative potential for telling different kinds of stories like Marvel does. Ant-man, for example, is more of a heist movie, and Thor, Ironman, and Captain America films each have their own character. Ironman is SciFi, Thor is more fantastic, as CA is more like the old serials.
     
  2. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

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    I would disagree. As long as the EU is willing to actually step away from the first films and pursue different artistic directions, I think there's a lot of potential in the movie universe left untapped. Rather than trying to make every film part of a concerted marketing and aesthetic effort, as the marvel films are to some degree, if the TF films use the original films as a jumping off point to pursue radically different directions and focus on different character styles and story types, there's some hope for the EU.
     
  3. Hazekiah

    Hazekiah Banned

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    Saying "the series doesn't have the creative potential for telling different kinds of stories like Marvel does" is just flat-out WRONG.

    There is literally no reason whatsoever that the Transformers Cinematic Universe couldn't be used to make, say, a heist film. It's actually a perfect fit, honestly! Seeing Blackout and Frenzy go datamining in Qatar and aboard Air Force One along with Soundwave doing the same to a satellite before infiltrating the N.E.S.T. base at Diego Garcia so Ravage and "reed man" could steal back the shard of the AllSpark were easily some of the coolest sequences in the films so far.

    There's really no reason the Transformers franchise can't be used as a vehicle for ANY type of film.
     
  4. MnemonicSyntax

    MnemonicSyntax You know what happens to Messiahs, don't you?

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    It doesn't necessarily have to be about leaders, it could just be like the "Spotlight" series.

    And it's ironic you bring up Windblade yet she's relatively new.
     
  5. Hollywood Hoist

    Hollywood Hoist Well-Known Member

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    Everything divides this fanbase, third party, simplified figures, Chibi style figures, non-transforming figures, the amount of articulation, Beast Wars, Animated, Beast Machines, AEC, Kre-o, and on and on.
     
  6. Lord Tron

    Lord Tron Well-Known Member

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    I agree Hazekiah there is no reason this can't work though there is one thing I want them to do that in my opinion marvel hasn't.

    If you do end up doing completely different genres space operas, heist, fantasy, political whatever make each genre have a different tone a political movie and a space Opera should not have the same tone.

    Don't just shake up the characters shake up the tone have some spin offs be very humorous or straight up family films, have another be last stand of the wreckers dark, have one be almost a character drama. If you are going to mix genres you need to mix tones as well.
     
  7. Zhadow

    Zhadow Oh hi there

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    What do you think the Writers Room is for?
     
  8. SouthtownKid

    SouthtownKid Headmaster

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    I wish people would stop using the Marvel movies as a example of something done better. Two good movies amongst a sea of mediocrity is not a recipe worth emulating. The Marvel Cinematic Universe batting average is freaking dismal.
     
  9. Rodimus Prime

    Rodimus Prime Sola Gratia, Sola Fide TFW2005 Supporter

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    There's three problems I see with this: budget, reputation, and Hasbro.

    The TF movies are naturally expensive due to the main characters being computer generated, and I doubt Hasbro has anywhere near the cash that Disney does. This isn't really an issue so long as they remain (mostly) on earth, but any kind of grand space opera would be out of the question, I would wager.

    Secondly, the movies do not have the best reputation, as far as these things matter, and I think that it will hurt when looking for directors who are willing to think outside of the box. What I mean is that the films are generally seen as mindless action flicks, and I think directors who would want to do something with the series besides this will be turned off, especially in light of the Fant4stic Flop business. Which leads me to...

    Hasbro has always been very hands-on with the TFs, for better and for worse. I can see this as being a long-term problem if they start trying to run the movies like they have ran the shows and/or comics.

    Opinions and all that, but even if you don't like the movies, they are successful in creating something that is almost unheard of: multiple series which are all set in the same universe, and interconnect with each other in multiple ways.

    To make sure they don't use the same fart and piss jokes as each other?
     
  10. Ash from Carolina

    Ash from Carolina Junior Smeghead

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    I'm just not sure other than personal opinion where the idea of not done better would come from.

    With critics the Marvel expanded film universe has been doing well which is odd because you'd expect at least one that critics wouldn't enjoy. Yet the worst Tomatometer is Thor: The Dark World at 66%.

    Nothing has been classified as a box office flop. So far there isn't even anything that has been reported as a box office disappointment. To run so many films without at least some minor box office disappoint is almost unheard of.

    In general the fans of the Marvel/Disney Marvel Universe seem fairly happy with being able to stand on top of the mountain going our cinematic universe is better than your franchise. Heck there are times I feel more than a little envy that things I enjoyed as a child like GI Joe aren't the critical, box office, and fan pleasing mix of can't seem to fail that Marvel/Disney is.
     
  11. tokuformers

    tokuformers Well-Known Member

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    I see the Transformers universe with the same potential universes as Marvel, DC, StarWars, Startrek or any other existing to invest in a cinematic universe.

    Potential Transformers universe has. but do those involved (Hasbro, paramount, Spielberg, Mbay) are interested in exploring the true potential of the franchise have?

    no matter the budget, if the film is well done, produced, written, directed, edited and published (trailers, posters, TV spots and other advertisements), sure it will be inevitable success of audience, box office and critical.
     
  12. Zhadow

    Zhadow Oh hi there

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    Good point.
     
  13. Chaos Prime

    Chaos Prime Combaticon

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    Well the Bayformers aren't entire;y low quality.
    The writing is mostly low quality, and the directing sure is.

    This. If the Bayformers movie have proven anything, bad movies can succeed.
     
  14. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Droppin' Space Colonies

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    I know that's a common argument but at the same time I wouldn't say it's the actual reason for the lack of TF's on screen as major characters as it is suggesting absolutely awful resource management.

    We're not getting LOTR ork-scale numbers of Decepticons, that much is certain. However, there were still a sizable number of bad guys during the Egypt battle before even factoring in Devestator being the film's CGI centerpiece. Then in DOTM we got even MORE Decepticons showing up doing stuff on the moon, then running amok in DC, and finally flying motherships around with smaller fighter craft parking on skyscrapers...and that's before factoring in the real life computer-melting roboworm having a good portion of the run time just destroying the building all the good guys are in before Prime blasts it apart.

    AoE also demonstrated this poor resource management. Like, how much effort was obviously put into giving Lockdown an array of different minions, ships, and then with the KSI drones decidedly unique versions (despite being limited mass-production) to the point there was an oreo vending machine drone?

    It's not like making the bad guy robots just generic hordes has really been good either - it just makes the good guys seem even MORE OP by effortlessly defeating ALL OF THEM without risk of life (and no, that goddamn "Hound almost dies scene" doesn't count, because he obviously didn't die and everybody rallies around that Bulkhead ripoff every time it's pointed out the Autobots are simply not allowed to die anymore to the point of annoyance). The films need to dial down the Decepticon/bad guy hordes, go back to the first film which only had a handful of Decepticons but comparatively they each got a turn in the spotlight during the final battle. With a larger budget on the scale of AoE's $215 million, that could be easily expanded to have those same few characters appear all through a film and give the Decepticons the desperately needed characterization they need.
     
  15. MnemonicSyntax

    MnemonicSyntax You know what happens to Messiahs, don't you?

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    Sometimes I think this fandom just goes along with what other people say, based on "critics" and other websites that review movies.

    I also wonder if Michael Bay's name wasn't tied to these movies and yet were exactly the same, how much different those opinions would be.
     
  16. edgs2099

    edgs2099 Optimistically realistic. Moderator

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    Shit, it doesn't have anything to do with fandom really. A lot of people are indeed "follow the leader". It sounds cliche to call people "sheeple", but there are a good chunk that love to let someone else do their thinking for them. I actually know (knew) a guy that seriously gauges his interest in a film project by what one specific critic says. Back in the day he was really looking forward to "Training Day", but his critic shit on it, so he still to this day has never bothered to watch it.

    Honest straight up truth, leave the Transformers films as they are but go back in time and remove Bay's name from them, I would suppose maybe...15-20% of the hate these films get would be nullified.

    To me, they would still be flawed films, that miss all of the same opportunities they missed. I don't hate Bay, but I don't really respect him. Not artistically at least. He gets the same "He's a human" kind of respect all people get from me, but artistically, in regards to his decisions on the Transformers films, Blarf.

    On the other hand, to kind of stay positive, both of the Bad Boys films are fun, if not formulaic, 90's (I know 2 was 2003), action movies.

    On topic,

    I think this "Universe" thing has about a 33.333% chance of working. I mostly predict a failure due to the fact that they currently only have 2 marketable Transformers. Optimus Prime and Bumblebee. Optimus Prime in Space, Bumblebee on Earth. I say currently, because there is a possibility that the focus of the 5th movie would be to create a viable character for spinning off. In order to change my prediction of failure, TF5 REALLY needs to expand characters, get lucky in creating a new/old character that people like, and maybe give Bay a rest for most/all of the spinoffs.
     
  17. Jochimus

    Jochimus Sandwiches? Blimey, whatever did I give the wife?

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    At any rate, I think there needs to be a substantial change in formula if they think they're gonna build a whole universe of films on this franchise without rebooting. I mean, if Optimus is in space, they'd do just as well to branch into two series of films at this point - him out there, 'Bee fronting the 'bots back on Earth...which would probably require that 'Bee finally, y'know, talk normally, but hey, that on its own would probably require bringing in a new Autobot medic character anyway, so there's one fresh face to add right there (granted, RID'15 is already doing the 'Bumblebee leading on Earth' bit, but it's also doing it in a practically-buried CN time slot, as opposed to a big-budget sci-fi actioner that masses are actually likely to see...). Plus, if Galvatron has any inkling whatsoever of the hows and whys and wherefores of KSI's technology, he could probably amass (read: plunder) the resources necessary to build a new army of underlings, Allspark and Earth authorities be damned, so it's not like there'd be any real lack of Decepticons. Or for that matter, HUMAN enemies, since between the Battle of Chicago and Optimus kacking Attinger and letting the Dinobots just wander off, some other cranky fleshbag is bound to flip their **** again against the Autobots...which is, of course, why I can also see G.I. Joe being rebooted out of this when the wrong folks get their hands on Cybertronian tech and the Autobots can't be depended on by the government to put an end to it.

    And that just touches on what'd be happening on Earth. Optimus In Space could go damn near anywhere it pleased; any barren environment on Earth could easily serve as a location shoot to double as an alien world, and it's not like this franchise has shied away from location shooting; plus not every being out there has to be a fully-CGI character with billions of moving parts. And story-wise, who knows who might've gotten off of Cybertron before the going REALLY got tough and decided they don't want any of that Autobot-Decepticon nonsense, or for that matter who Megatron might have attempted to slaughter/generally p*** off who ended up getting in the way of him and the Allspark?

    But again, that's going to require at least SOMETHING more than what these movies have demonstrated so far in the writing and direction department in order for any of it to work. Even Star Wars only had about half the effort towards a coherent story that four decades' worth of talking heads have liked to think it did, and Transformers doesn't even require THAT much.
     
  18. Rodimus Prime

    Rodimus Prime Sola Gratia, Sola Fide TFW2005 Supporter

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    I cannot speak for anyone else, but mine would be the same. I actually like the original well enough, and I was accepting of the flaws because it was said that the reason that they were there was financial. I only began to think Bay sucked with the second one.
     
  19. Lord Tron

    Lord Tron Well-Known Member

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    Did you ever think to leave revenge of the Fallen behind not think back on it every time you see one of the movies.

    I could be mistaken with you here if I am sorry, but I honestly think somehow people are still seeing revenge of the Fallen every time a new movie comes out stating the same flaws despite the fact that those flaws are minimum now or downright nonexistent.

    First: Bad and inappropiate humor in Revenge very valid and understandable. In Age it's pretty much gone their really are no sex or fart jokes aside from the card scene the humor is controlled none of it is really distasteful yet people still say it is why because there's still one scene like that I don't know. The flaw has certainly been taken care of.

    Second: Too much focus on humans in revenge mostly understandable in Age it's absurd starting from Optimus's revival the robots really never leave the film the story of the movie is more their story than the humans. The Yaeger stuff after the texas chase is more than minimum it's barely a plot getting only very brief scenes the ship being the only big part for it. Optimus is pretty much the star of this film. Hound has just as much screentime and lines as a lot of the autobots from the animated movie as does crosshairs. Lockdown is featured prominently throughout the whole movie. This complaint is not valid at all anymore.

    Third: Weak villains did you miss when Sentinel beat Optimus single handily or when it took all the human characters and Optimus working together to beat Lockdown or the fact that Lockdown and Galvatron both held their own. What about the part where Hound was almost killed during his last stand does any of this not matter? The villains are beating the heroes or pushing them to the brink in the climax you have like three moments maybe more where the heroes are on the ropes Dark is like this too. So this complaint is odd too the main villains put up a fight at least in Age they do the drones are drones flunkies, Stormtroopers they're not meant to be uber powerful.

    Too many explosions: Do you just zone out during the movies Dark barely has any action at all before the third act. Age has some action but it's mostly focused on the story which actually has a lot going on the endless explosion crap that people keep bringing up doesn't start until the third act and let's be realistic a war scene is going to have explosions.

    So I really have to ask if you are either A. imagining each movie is Revenge of the Fallen because you can't move on or B. Zoning out during the whole movie yet conveniently coming back during the climax while missing everything else because nearly everything you are complaining about has been pretty much fixed.
     
  20. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

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    I dunno man, we're talking about a company willing to run multiple different incarnations of one of it's key brands simultaneously, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt on approaching the films in different ways than the "main" films. As to the reputation of the franchise, I could agree that it might push away serious big name directors, but it could also attract young, ambitious directors looking to make a name for themselves or who have an attachment to the brand.


    Yes, because the "fandom" works off a hivemind and not a series of individual opinions. It's not like there isn't even a duality of opinions in this very thread or anything.

    If people were that interested in what critics and what "normal" opinions they were supposed to hold, they probably wouldn't be fans of Transformers in the first place. C'mon, man.

    I can assure you that Bay's involvement, at least in terms of name, hasn't had nearly as much of an impact on people's opinions as his actual work. Fans, by and large, gave him the benefit of the doubt until they started seeing what he came up with. After that shit went downhill fast.

    Why are you so invested in trying to defend these films?