Why human bigotry storylines don’t really pay off in Transformers

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by QLRformer, Jul 12, 2014.

  1. shellformer

    shellformer @

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    Saying that nazis and the like (which is what is actually discussed here) are simply "different" is... well... not really the whole story, now is it? Yes, they are in fact different. They hold different ideas than those I do. That is not actually the issue. That they differ is a technicality. Men and women differ. Africans and Asians differ. But so what? Two groups or ideas being different doesn't have to mean anything at all. Green and blue are different!

    What is the actual problem is the content of their beliefs. What makes nazis a problem is that they're not just incidentally violently racist (and misogynist and homophobic etc etc) but that violence specifically targeting minorities is the core of their ideology and the whole point of their organisation. They don't want to gather in demonstrations to shout a lot of slurs in the abstract, they want to do it so they can show their strength and attract more to their cause and then go out and terrorize people of colour and feminists and anyone who doesn't want to live under a nazi regime. The problem with nazis is the physical safety of those around them.

    So any state with any notions of democracy or equality does have a compelling interest in suppressing nazi activity on multiple levels. Both through direct violence against them as well as through preventive measures that minimise the risk of people ending up in a situation where nazism is appealing.

    We all know how it can go otherwise.
     
  2. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    First, to invoke the NAZI's in a topic about racism is automatically an extreme straw man. We aren't talking about a political movement to establish a dominant race; were talking about opinions that we don't approve of for moral reasons.

    While I agree that perpetrators of violent crimes should be arrested and imprisoned, I find it problematic to arrest people because they think the wrong way. I don't see the virtue of complaining about fascism and then endorsing a flavor of it.

    The way I see it, at face value, if you hate a hater, then aren't you a hater too?

    It was crossing my mind yesterday that the forum rules exist to promote harmony and eliminate strife, and that maybe social politics like this are still politics and possibly should be considered off limits.

    Your thoughts?
     
  3. EnergonWaffles

    EnergonWaffles Autobot's Head Chef Veteran

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    For me, the reason why those bigotry storylines didn't always work was because the Autobots (mostly Optimus) didn't always have what I would consider a believable reaction. Sure, Optimus is supposed to be compassionate towards humanity and all, but sometimes the amount he's willing to sacrifice without question seems off.

    And that's one thing I enjoyed about AOE. The human bigotry finally resulted in him questioning whether the costs of protecting the human race were worth the sacrifices he was making.
     
  4. gregles

    gregles quintesson

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    If you consider these things off limits, that's fine. I was just curious really given how long it has been and I know it was non of my business. I'm not quite sure what social politics means in this context but I was asking about feelings which I gave a disclaimer that you didn't have to answer if you didn't want to. I'm sorry if I said anything inappropriate. I'm not sure what harmony online would look like or if its ever truly attainable but that doesn't mean us as members shouldn't try to be civil and fully respect the rules and mods.
     
  5. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    Aw man, no worries. Your good; no harm done. I just don't wish to further derail the topic, that's all.

    But I did have a thought about the topic at hand:

    Because it's supposed to be about The Transformers, not about humans. If one were really to for some reason want to address bigotry then it should be about The Transformers, not the people whose planet is being invaded
     
  6. QLRformer

    QLRformer Seeker

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    Optimus traditionally displays empathy and understanding, compassion, trust, forgiveness and friendship: qualities that are the exact opposite of what bigotry embodies and causes. And you could say he feels the gaining of trustworthy/reliable allies and friends as something fulfilling and meaningful, which makes sense since a good friend will help you get through life and its crisis... even or especially if this crisis is an enemy.


    And IMO this element wasn't handled too well in AOE:
    - they never showed how things break down between AOE and DOTM? Especially after the Autobots proved themselves three times already?
    - they didn't make Attinger balanced enough - bigots are not necessarily balanced people, but he could have had a decent reason to want the Transformers gone from Earth instead of doing it for money
    - Cade's speech to Optimus - he was repairing him for money, look past the junk and see the treasure, have faith in who we can be? Those are not exactly words I would use to ask Optimus to trust us again. I'd say that we were not all like Attinger, that some of us saw what the Autobots did to protect them and believe in them, and say that we have ties worth holding on to, something a little more optimistic I'd guess.
    - Optimus left behind orders to defend the family... just that one family. What about all the other innocents inhabiting Earth?
     
  7. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    Serious question: would anyone here refer to AoE Optimus as a bigot?
     
  8. QLRformer

    QLRformer Seeker

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    Seriously, no. Just disheartened and let down.

    He never killed any major antagonist who didn't deserve it.

    And it takes being fixed, protected and rescued for him to get a bit of faith back in the people of Earth, or at least one Earth family.
     
  9. LegendAntihero

    LegendAntihero Banned

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    Human bigotry should stay in X-Men and not go into other stories
     
  10. shellformer

    shellformer @

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    This is a bunch of equivocating bullshit. "Moral reasons" isn't some fluffy nonsense. It means something. The moral imperative in banning hate speech is combating the climate of terror it creates. You ignore the explanation I already provided. People don't want to destroy racism because of just sorta having a vague sense of dislike for it. People fight against it because of the detrimental effects it has, because of the measurable harm it does.

    A hell of a lot of law is based in morality already. Why is murder illegal? Because of the grief it causes in survivors and because of the unbearable state of affairs we'd have if people were allowed to kill anyone, any time they pleased. Living in constant fear of your life is not healthy. That is why far-right organisations must be stopped.

    Hating the people who consider you subhuman and would gladly kill your entire family for it is not the same thing as joining a racist movement. What you are talking about is straight up the death of meaning and the height of atomisation. The most superficial part, the emotion of hatred, is all-important while the actual real-world context for it is dismissed as meaningless. Form, not content, becomes the sole thing by which correctness is decided. If someone is calm while they spread racist propaganda then that is obviously just a harmless opinion that must be defended and can only ever be critiqued for minor factual errors but if someone is passionate or outright upset while they object to police brutality targeting minorities then nothing they say could ever be important because they've committed the greatest crime of all; they've broken form.
     
  11. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    Hyperbole and straw men; I won't be baited.
     
  12. CKSpawn

    CKSpawn 666 The Beastformer

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    Well, the boss of KSI Making the robots fears them but eventually sees it's wrong.Then he sees Optimus Prime and gits over that fear.The only reason he wants Prime is to git the seed then after he learns it is a weapon betrays his partner and says he doesn't want it till he knows more about it, is Forced to steal it when Galvatron comes to life.Trys to get it out of the city.Meets Prime says he's sorry begs snivling to Prime to help.The badguy was always bad the ex-goverment agent.I think he got what he diserved and was killed can't remember off the top of my head.
     
  13. Rattrap Primal

    Rattrap Primal Geek Overlord, Botbot Collector

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    I grew up on the cartoon, so I prefer the now hokey "Most humans like Autobots" approach
     
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  14. General Magnus

    General Magnus Da Custodes of the Emprah

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    Even then it´s pretty fucking stupid. I mean, any sane nation would welcome to have superpowerd individuals in their ranks.
     
  15. Autovolt 127

    Autovolt 127 Get In The Titan, Prime!

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    Until they start causing property damage.

    I'm pretty sure superpowered individuals wouldn't want to be their nations weapons.
     
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  16. LegendAntihero

    LegendAntihero Banned

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    didn't stop the mutants from joining the army in Days of Future Past
     
  17. QLRformer

    QLRformer Seeker

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    Well, anyone would like the guys protecting the Earth. It's not unreasonable, and it can work today.


    As long as they could ensure these individuals would not turn on them. As long as their faith and trust can be truly justified and proven.


    Collateral has been handled differently, in Marvel and DC.

    DC Comics, the people don't really care about superhumans tearing up their city, since they think heroes are awesome. And I think the heroes help to clean up the mess they make.

    Marvel Comics, the people are more harsh and upset about their daily routines and lives being thrown into disarray. There was even a collateral company, Damage Control, created to handle the devastation caused from superhuman battles.


    TF has had it both ways: everybody cheered as the Bots trounced the Cons, then around the mid-2000s it changed and people got more concerned about what the battle was doing to Earth.
    I guess you can't avoid that sort of fear and worry, and I can see bigotry arising from it, but it still doesn't pay to be bigoted towards the Autobots. They will defend you to the end.
     
  18. General Magnus

    General Magnus Da Custodes of the Emprah

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    Not treating like crap and hunting them down with giant robots would be a huge start.
     
  19. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime System Pride

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    Frankly I stopped reading at this point because you seem to be saying it doesn't work for the exact same reason you previously claimed it did work. Though I don't think you even realize the contradiction in your two statements.

    Humans kill off both the X-Men and the Brotherhood. You seem to think this works even though they're killing off the good mutants as well as the bad ones. So why wouldn't killing the Autobots work just as well?

    Given that your topic title is about human bigotry stories. It actually requires humans to hate both Autobots and Decepticons. That's what it means to be a bigot. Bigots don't see good robots and bad robots, just like they don't see good mutants and bad mutants. All they see is a group that is different than their own and rather than judging them individually, they judge them all as a group.

    The point of human bigotry stories is to show an analog between real life racism. They show the good and bad in all races. They show the bigots who don't care about the actions of the individuals. They're designed to make you realize, no it isn't fair that the good ones are being murdered along with the bad. That's the whole point.

    Technically speaking, if you realized that it's not fair to kill the Autobots when they're the good guys then it actually does work. It's doing exactly what it's suppose to. Bigotry isn't fair, that's what you're suppose to realize when you watch a bigotry story line. If you thought it was fair watching both Good Mutants and Bad Mutants being killed in the X-Men then that's what isn't working.

    There's actually no difference between William Stryker and Harold Attinger. William Stryker wants to kill all the Mutants because he believes they are all a threat to humanity. Harold Attinger wants to kill all the Transformers because he believes they are all a threat to humanity.

    The only thing in AoE that really doesn't work is the fact that they're working with Lockdown. Yeah, they don't want Transformers on Earth anymore. They refuse to keep working with the Autobots. But they have no issues with Lockdown. What? At least the Mutants William Stryker works with are working for him against their will or he created them, so I can kind of understand it. They're like the Transformers humans create in AoE, the humans think they have control over them. But Lockdown is just another Transformer with his own agenda. Realistically if humans had sworn to hunt down all Transformers Lockdown would be a target.

    Maybe it's just because they had the deal to trade Optimus for the Seed but even that doesn't make sense. If they're willing to rely on Lockdown to keep his end of the deal then why can't they rely on the Autobots to protect them? Yeah they're doing it for more Transformium so they can make their own Transformers and won't need the Autobots protection anymore. But couldn't they just get the Autobots to take it from Lockdown? They'd still be able to build their own Transformers and they'd still be able to stop relying on the Autobots to save them. It'd be a lot easier way to get the seed and more peaceful way to end their alliance with the Autobots than starting a war with them. No one would have to die and the Autobots could just leave the Earth in peace knowing the humans are now capable of defending themselves.

    But no they had to make Lockdown work with the humans there by not only making the humans stupid evil bigots, but also making them stupid evil hypocrites. "We hate Transformers. We don't care if they're Autobot or Decepticon, we still hate them." Who's that guy? "Oh that's Lockdown, he's a Transformer that we work with to help us fight against all the Transformers." But he's a Transformer, you just said you hate them all. "Yeah so?" No one sees a problem with this? Really? We're just going to go with it?
     
  20. skynet1O1

    skynet1O1 Well-Known Member

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    Well put! This has been an issue of mine as of late with TF. I've expressed this before but not many other members don't agree with me but I've always felt that IDW has recycled plots and events over and over even things that have happened as far back as Marvel's comics.