Why do the movies get so much hate?

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Kirby0189, Sep 21, 2015.

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  1. Lord Tron

    Lord Tron Well-Known Member

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    Darkseeker I didn't say they themselves were racist I said immediately assuming something is a stereotype is something you can do that seems racist without you actually being it. The whole Twins fiasco was absurd it shouldn't of happened the whole out look is messed up just have fun. A belief being somewhat racist and a person are not the same thing. One is someone thinks something that when you think about it could come off as racist in other words it's a complete accident it's unintentional.

    As such doesn't really define the person nor should they be ridiculed for it they didn't know. This is what happened with the twins Bay wasn't trying to be racist they just wanted comic relief characters it wasn't intentional it wasn't meant to be. Just like people who automatically assume that it's racist in truth they're the ones jumping to conclusions but it's not intentional and they shouldn't be judged for it.

    (To Autobot burnout) I don't think it's alright to be insensitive to white people but everyone else seems to no one cares about the negative portrayal of a white person I've never seen anyone get all pissed off like they did with the twins you.

    My god you're unbearably narrow minded can you answer any question I ask it doesn't seem like it. Why would it be okay for the twins to be the way they are but they were portrayed as white but the moment they seem black it's bad why is one insensitive and the other isn't answer the damn question.

    I know what Sensei means it's pretty obvious they are their mentor and teacher yet they call them Sensei I wonder what that means? Some people no matter what culture embrace Japanese culture Sensei is a term my brothers use because they love Japanese culture. There is nothing wrong with doing that and what was the problem with Drift saying it and if he wasn't a problem either that means the only perceived racist stereotypes were the twins which means the movies aren't full of them.

    So now it's bad to look at things political to look at things in a different perspective of course you don't have the answer to my question I'm fairly certain of this since you haven't answered any question I ask if you have something useful to say like why the twins being white would've been okay to most but them possibly being black isn't kindly state it.
     
  2. CKPRIME

    CKPRIME Banned

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    Come on man, I pointed out in the other thread you were being dishonest about that. It's not their native language. They don't read the language of the Primes, neither does Bumblebee or Wheelie. Can you read ancient greek? It's pretty much the same thing.

    I think they are annoying but they are cultural stereotypes at best. Unless you think all black people everywhere are known for using American urban slang and no other ethnic groups do. This is a tired argument, let it go.
     
  3. NeverDoubt

    NeverDoubt Well-Known Member

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    I know what Lord Tron is trying to say. A stereotype doesn't mean "completely false." It means an exaggeration of real traits. As someone of ethnic decent, I can say that sometimes it feels like, in our eager to be inoffensive, we strip groups of whatever makes them distinct or unique. I've seen commercials about Italian tomato sauce where the Grandma is kinda plumb and overly dramatic. Is that offensive? It's certainly how many of my older female relatives look and act! It would be silly to pretend otherwise.

    If Bayformers had been made in, say, the 30s or 40s, Mudflap and Skids probably would have sounded like one of the European immigrant groups who were working class. Is it a stereotype that working class boys (of ANY racial group) are, um, not into reading? Yes. Is it entirely untrue? No.
     
  4. Decepticons

    Decepticons B∆K. Bug-a-Boo Ghost.

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    Yeah, sexism is a real issue for these films.

    Yes, there is. There really is.
     
  5. Lord Tron

    Lord Tron Well-Known Member

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    Once again what is wrong with a woman not always be this strong willed character not every woman can be Black Canary. Tessa was a normal school girl how could she have handled that situation how would you. Have you seen how some high school girls dress why is any of this sexist.

    Tessa was depicted as an honors student who was said to be the most responsible of the yaeger family teaching Cade how to cook and balance his check book the lateral of which shows that she is quite mature understanding money. While she shows a desire to get drunk around her friends this is the only time she was like that suggesting that was just an act. Despite what people think Tessa mostly saved herself got out of the car witnessed the exchange of the seed which potentially saved the planet she then fought off many Lockdown's monsters by herself. She went back for her father and risked her life to save him. Not a badass but hardly a negative portrayal of a teenage girl.

    Carly was depicted as a self made woman who Sam pretty much lived off of she had a good paying job. Dylan had nothing to do with that girls success she was a british ambassador at one point she was self made. She was supportive and compassionate of Sam's dilema but still called him out on what he was doing. She could've done nothing but approached Megatron and insulted him to his face an action which could've killed her. To me she's a perfectly admirable woman so what she was sexified every now and again I don't feel she was a negative portrayal of women at all.

    Darkseeker I'm sorry to hear you lived in such a difficult neighborhood and had to see such unacceptable behavior you deserved better I hope I am not saying anything bad about your family it's not my intention.

    What you said actually supports my point it only existed in your neighborhood because people allowed it too. That's my point these comments about racism and stereotyping only exist because we as people allow them to but they don't have to. They are no stereotype bugs or animals just people.

    Now I do not hate people at all but my point is things like this only exist with us nothing else to me that means it's just a perception something we believe and have allowed to exist like most negative things but we can end it's existence to if we're willing to and I think we're perfectly capable of it.

    I admit my views come off as very naive you are correct and it hasn't helped me either. Things haven't gone the way I would like but I don't see it as foolish or naive I've seen a lot of good in my life and just have to keep trying to see it not always easy I'll tell you that.

    I'm aware this seems deep but there's nothing wrong with that either not everything needs to be an argument I'm going to kindly ask we end this conversation it's detracting from the topic.

    Hope things have gotten better for you than how you made it sound good job on not succumbing to some of the negative environments around you, you should be proud.
     
  6. witeter

    witeter Well-Known Member

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    I was so disappointed by the films, the trailer looked great but the films were a huge let down for me. I didnt like the robot designs, the fightscenes were just a huge CGI mess, poor script and storylines. I felt they were also geared at a younger demographic instead of the people who grew up with transformes; which Im sure makes financial sense but means that the films lacked substance for my liking. I would love to have seen Christopher Nolan direct them.
     
  7. Lord Tron

    Lord Tron Well-Known Member

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    I wish I could say I understand why you don't like them but the truth is I don't and no matter how you explain it I don't think I ever will.

    Nolan is a good director but he's not the man for transformers first some people think the movies are getting to dark as it is I wouldn't call Age a kids movie, Nolan would only make it darker.

    Another more important point Nolan can't direct action to save his life the final battle of each Dark Knight was lacking, Inception's action was okay. Nolan is not an action director he doesn't do action movies so him doing transformers doesn't make sense.

    Finally Nolan wouldn't touch transformers there is nothing there that would appeal to him. So i'm afraid it's best you drop that hope for him to direct it's not happening
     
  8. witeter

    witeter Well-Known Member

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    Its not a realistic hope as I know he wont touch it anyway, allow me to dream :)  I would love it to be dark and gritty and aimed at a more mature audience, i like Nolan's take on action so for me there is no issue there. And its cool that you like the movies, lots of people do, but for me they are terrible and cannot wait for the franchise to blow over.
     
  9. Lord Tron

    Lord Tron Well-Known Member

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    That's fine. But dreaming for something you know isn't going to happen doesn't help believe me I know false hope doesn't help.

    If you want a different director which if so that's your choice there are other options my ideal picks would Neil um i don't know his last name but he directed District 9 I think he would be a good choice. I also feel the directors of the Bourne movies could be an interesting choice.

    Those are my main suggestions though after seeing MOS I wouldn't mind Zack Snyder giving it a shot either.
     
  10. witeter

    witeter Well-Known Member

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    Don't worry its not some kind of obsession im clinging onto lol,I love Christopher Nolans' work so that's why it would be cool to see him linked to one of my favourite childhood programs.

    I agree with District 9 director or Bourne director also, i think they would add a good amount of gravitas.
     
  11. Decepticons

    Decepticons B∆K. Bug-a-Boo Ghost.

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    Yeah, they can. Sexism is an issue in Hollywood and the overall film industry that should be dismantled and ended. Women are not incapable of multidimensional characterization. Each of the female leads in the Transformers films are highly sexualized, including Tessa, who is literally seventeen years old.

    Aside from the blatant sexualization, all three were relegated to very misogynistic tropes. Each of them served as love interests and Carly and Tessa were thrown into damsel-in-distress roles. It's really coincidental how the villain always goes for the female character, right? It's never the male getting abducted.

    And Megan Fox literally had to wash one of Michael Bay's cars in a bikini as her audition for the first film, in addition to dealing with the large amount of chauvinistic shit she put up with on the sets. That is really fucking disgusting.

    I could go so much more in detail, but I'm not, because this is not the thread to discuss the topic of sexism. Just know, it is a noticeable and serious flaw the films suffer from.
     
  12. Lord Tron

    Lord Tron Well-Known Member

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    Nice job overlooking everything I said about both characters there a love interest guess what so was Natasha they were kidnapped and had to be rescued so was Natasha.

    Considering Sam actually knew the Autobots and Carly didn't really know them it makes sense that Dylan would want Sam to be the spy so going for Carly who can't do crap against a giant robot the military have trouble killing isn't a really a point against her.

    Tessa was kidnapped by accident Lockdown basically said I don't want her take her to the trash. Yet Tessa fights off the drones makes her way through the ship avoids Lockdown's soldiers takes out the alien clinging to her and in the ending goes back for her dad which saves his life. She also found about the Seed which potentially saved the world.

    Instead of just jumping on the sexist bandwagon actually examine the characters and what they do more importantly remember these are normal people thrown into a situation they are not prepared for.

    So they have a few scenes where they look good it doesn't matter those don't define the characters just like the humor doesn't define the movies. Each female character does something useful plenty of things useful in some of their cases they're not superheroes they're normal people.
     
  13. MnemonicSyntax

    MnemonicSyntax You know what happens to Messiahs, don't you?

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    Sam was abducted in ROTF.
     
  14. Hazekiah

    Hazekiah Banned

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    Newsflash: GIRLS CAN BE SEXY.

    Especially in their later teenage years! Mmm.

    Oh, and never say never...Sam and his dad were both abducted, too.

    Hell, Mikaela even abducted Wheelie, lol.
     
  15. Lord Tron

    Lord Tron Well-Known Member

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    True all true but I'm actually going to ask a question I asked several pages back people say these movies need to take more risks they do way more than most franchises I can think of.

    I mean they killed off Iron Hide despite knowing he was a fan favorite, they made Optimus's mentor a bad guy despite the controversial nature of it, they chose the Fallen of all characters to be the villain when they could've chosen a much more well known character, They deciding to give Megatron a mentor despite how much many fans wouldn't like it, they made humans the central villains of the forth movie despite the fact that fans hate the idea of humans even being a threat. They could've gone the obvious route and used Unicron and Galvatron for the forth movie like most fans suggested they use Lockdown a character at the time only about five years old. They could've kept Optimus a straight up hero who does no wrong and is always pure similar to superman instead they made a darker Optimus who flat out loses his faith in humanity something that has never happened. They could've had Attinger get killed by Lockdown betraying him or even have Cade kill him both of which would've made sense instead for the first time in probably transformers history Optimus kills a human. They could've done the typical Megatron is all powerful unstoppable badass instead they went for a Megatron that gets gradually weaker with each film regardless of the fact that it would obviously piss fans off.

    These are all mostly ideas that fans didn't think of a risk is doing something different over what people expect the transformer movie do this all the time.
     
  16. Decepticons

    Decepticons B∆K. Bug-a-Boo Ghost.

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    Which is why Age of Ultron was slammed with criticisms from critics and fans alike since Natasha was characterized nothing like she was in prior films. Seriously, that entire romance subplot was unnecessary and spontaneous.

    Regardless of the minor acts of heroism, what I mentioned before are still forms of sexism.

    Except the way these scenes are shot is unnecessary. In ROTF, there was no reason Mikaela needed to be bent over the motorcycle painting it. It was simply thrown in for the male gaze.

    Still, it is commonly the female character that is kidnapped. And that goes for most films in general, not solely Transformers.
     
  17. Lord Tron

    Lord Tron Well-Known Member

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    If every female character was like Natasha it would be boring once again no one talks about how every male character should be this strong willed character only with women what's with the double standard.

    As for Natasha in Age of Ultron my view of it is this she was an actual character this time she had an actual personality she wasn't for the most part emotionless in fact everyone was a character this time most of them had something called an actual arc unlike the first which did nothing with anyone.

    Of course that's not what I'm asking you're asking for risks how is what I put not actual risks?
     
  18. Decepticons

    Decepticons B∆K. Bug-a-Boo Ghost.

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    Because men have literally dominated lead characters in film for years. Audiences would like to see something other than heterosexual white men as protagonists all the time. That's why this demand for more female characters (as well as LGBTQIA+ and ethnic characters) in leading roles is happening.

    Natasha was never emotionless and they've all had pretty strong characterizations, but okay? You do you.

    What?
     
  19. NeverDoubt

    NeverDoubt Well-Known Member

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    And most of the time with female characters, it's just a meaningless buzzword. "What's her character? Oh she's a strong woman." Um...ok...and? Female characters often aren't allowed to have interesting quirks or flaws the way male characters do.

    Plus you know, as a female I can confidently state that the overwhelming majority of my friends aren't Xena Warrior Princess and would probably need to be rescued if captured, lol. Does that mean they're somehow not strong?
     
  20. Lord Tron

    Lord Tron Well-Known Member

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    Neverdoubt, That's not entirely true every female character in a lot of tv shows I watch are very interesting I also thought Jean Grey was a great in the X men movies and I'm liking the newer portrayal of Mystique. I have name several female characters I find interesting who are flawed and multi layered. Did i misinterpret what you were saying if i did sorry.

    (Directed at Decepticon) Uh I'm not in the mood for this right now The lead character is whoever it needs to be whatever sex it needs Wonder Woman is getting her own movie. Catwoman got just as much screen time as Batman did in Batman Returns I actually don't know who i would call the main character.

    Frozen both main characters were female can't forget Tangled. Elizabeth had the most character development of all the characters in the pirates trilogy. Buffy says hello. Serenity Joss Whedon in general. Silent Hill had an almost all female cast. Resident Evil certainly have tough female characters. Leia rescued Han and proved pretty effective in war. Ripley, the main character of AVP was female too.

    So don't rant to me about how Hollywood is sexist just because a franchise or two seems to be. Natasha had how many awesome action scenes we saw bits of her past so what she was a love interest that don't define a character. Get off your high horse and look around movies, tv, novels Women are being portrayed just fine not everyone is strong willed my mom ain't so characters can be different.
     
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