Why are TF comics utter pump?

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by Glitcher, Jan 12, 2008.

  1. KA

    KA Well-Known Member

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    its thread like these that i get the feeling a lot of TF comic readers dont read the medium. they just buy it because it has the name TF there.

    im not saying its a bad thing (if my reading list is any judging criteria, nor am i an elitist snob) but it makes for some ridiculously bad discussion.
     
  2. SMOG

    SMOG Vocabchampion ArgueTitan

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    If your reading list includes Transformers comics, then it's hard to be an elitist snob. :) 

    "Serious" comics snobs wouldn't go near Transformers comics. I do consider them to be sort of my "guilty pleasure" titles... though if the writing were better, I'd feel a little less abashed about following them.

    zmog
     
  3. Nevermore

    Nevermore It's self-perpetuating a parahumanoidarianised!

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    I think what KA means is:

    If you regularly read other comics besides Transformers, you're perceiving them differently than if the only comics you ever read in your life are the ones that have the name "Transformers" on them.

    Namely, someone who's been reading comics for years, went through the heyday of Image Comics and has learned over the years to tell the difference between a good story and a stereotypical sequence of action scenes and third rate dialogue, and between good visual storytelling featuring well-proportioned characters in dynamic sequences with no glaring perspective errors and a lineup of largely static, pompous "dramatic" poses, negligence of the "180 degree" rule and either "cheap-out" or error-ridden perspectives will most probably have different preferences than someone who never encountered the likes of Rob Liefeld before.
     
  4. SMOG

    SMOG Vocabchampion ArgueTitan

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    Exactly!

    zmog
     
  5. smkspy

    smkspy Remember true fans

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    So basicly you're saying that anyone who likes the DW comics for whatever reason has no taste in comics. I think we this thread needs a smug alert.
     
  6. Nevermore

    Nevermore It's self-perpetuating a parahumanoidarianised!

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    Nope, I'm just saying that a lot of people for whom reading comics basically started with Dreamwave are essentially making the same error as the people who jumped onto the Image bandwagon ten years earlier.

    Whereas people who got bored of the "Image" style after a while are a lot more critical of the Dreamwave stuff.

    A lot of people that start reading comics initially do it for the bright flashy images. It isn't until later that they learn to understand comics as a medium of sequential storytelling, and start to appreciate good characterization and dialogue and well-scripted plots on the one hand and good sequentials, thoughtful page layouts and well-chosen perspectives more.

    And some people never do that at all. For them, bright colors and dramatic poses is all they ever need.

    Some only care for the style. Others eventually look for a little more substance.

    I'm not saying it's "bad". I'm just saying those people will always be missing something. If they don't care, it's their choice. :) 
     
  7. smkspy

    smkspy Remember true fans

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    I agree about the art part(esp Pat Lee), but to compare DW story telling to Image story telling is very off the mark. I really think that the hate for DW style of art has altered alot of the perceptions about the story telling. Is this from not reading the storys since they published I dunno. I recently reread all the DW stuff, and yes the stories do suffer in some cases (Micromasters, WWI vol. II and III) like EVERY story does, but overall they were very decent, well characterized, and well scripted plots. I also think that the sudden demise of the stories without any resolution have cases many to become very criticial of them.
     
  8. SMOG

    SMOG Vocabchampion ArgueTitan

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    Part of what KA (and I) are talking about is the storytelling in the art. I don't hate the DW art... in many ways, it's very accomplished... however I think it's valid to point out that the panel-to-panel layouts are weak in terms of overall narrative flow.

    I might liken it to film, and with the artwork represented not only by colours, lighting and set-dressing, but also angles, shot size, shot length, and editing. You might have a decent script, but if your director/cinematographer/editor are only really experienced with making flashy, dynamic music videos or commercials, the narrative flow and coherency of your feature film might suffer because your (still highly skilled) filmmakers haven't developed a knack for storytelling.

    Actually, I can think of a prominent director just off the top of my head, whose most recent blockbuster sci-fi film is a perfect example of that exact thing. ;) 

    However, I also agree that the Image comparison is perhaps not completely fair. I think that DW Transformers comics were much better than YOUNGBLOOD and some of the other, more awful Image titles... but maybe not as good as some of the better Image stuff.

    zmog
     
  9. KA

    KA Well-Known Member

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    just to mess up the odds, FYI, i actually LIKED (some of) DW stuff. namely:
    - i liked pats covers, i think hes a great cover/pinup artist despite hes failing as a comic artist.
    - i LOVED vol3 ish 1-6, amongst the top 3 of all time TF story arcs.

    so, even when im aware of something being off, i can still like it for other reasons. its like being a jumpstarter fan. you know its lame, but you have personal reasons to like it.
     
  10. flamepanther

    flamepanther Interested, but not really

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    I enjoy the recent TF comics, but I do agree with some people that they can tend to get overly grandiose, or try too hard to make every character "deeper," edgier, or more important than they were meant to be, sometimes to the extent of seeming like fan fiction. God bless him, but I blame the influence of Simon Furman. Most of these trends reflect habits in Furman's writing style, and are things that many TF fans have simply come to expect from the comics, whether Furman is writing or not. No, I don't care to elaborate. Either you know exactly what I'm talking about, or you're not going to see it.
     
  11. Gears

    Gears buh-buh-body ya Veteran

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    I agree Ramjet Spotlight sucked, but the current Devastation Arc has been awesome.
     
  12. KA

    KA Well-Known Member

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    in the past the gravity of the stories werent so obvious thx to the peppy dialogue. my fave furmanism is 'time i wasnt here!'. stuff like that kept things light even when the stories themselves are serious.

    you dont have that these days and its not just furman. stuff these days tend to go for the grittier end of the spectrum across the medium.

    that said, my fave scripter these days is rick remender. hes dialogue always feel fresh even when they are cliched.
     
  13. Bumble Prime

    Bumble Prime all the time

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    lol utter pump.........

    i like transformers comics............. I like idw transformers comics, i sadly missed the dreamwave hey days.................but i prefer the edgier look of idw...........

    i think expectations are too high for comics based on toys......hell i still think comics in general take themselves too seriously, yeah they made an x men and a spider man movie.................but comics are for geeks like us, and they always will be , get used to it and enjoy it and dont try to make it into citizen kane :) 
     
  14. flamepanther

    flamepanther Interested, but not really

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    Well, I think Furman and those that have come after him are more often guilty of "too grandiose" than "too serious". You can see it in the last episode of Beast Wars as well, despite it not having the "grit" of a lot of the recent comics.
     
  15. WhiteRabbit

    WhiteRabbit Uncounted Outlier

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    Doesn't mean they don't have that potential though. Any story-telling medium is capable of telling perfect stories. A single image with no text can tell a perfect story.

    It's the opinion/perception of perfection that varies. ;) 

    Transformers are not toys in Transformers comics. They're living creatures with experiences, emotions and motives that we can relate to. It's up to the creative teams to make sure we do, and to make sure we're wowed by the things that make them different from us.
     
  16. MasterOfPuppets

    MasterOfPuppets Banned

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    While I have nothing to contribute due to my lack of comics experience, I will applaud some of the intelligent discussions I'm reading in this thread. SMOG and smkspy for being able to discuss their differing opinions like grown men, and WhiteRabbit for his great post regarding the Bay movie. Bravo. It's nice to read debate and discussion without bickering once in a while.
     
  17. Red leader

    Red leader Well-Known Member

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    Furman comes from the school of actually writting for kids as oppose to writting for adults, he started off here in the UK doing the Transformers back in the 80's and although some of his stuff now looks a bit juvenile he has an eye for an epic story and isnt afraid to let loose with his imagination which is a good thing, I'm glad he is back in the hotseat and generally like the new run of comics, although I would have loved to have seen a conclusion to Pat Lee's stuff..............sobs into coffee
     
  18. jorod74

    jorod74 Psycholagnist (Ret.)

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    as a kid, comics were cheap distractions that mom bought me- i could read a few issues while she was shopping, etc- so i only have like a small number of the Marvel TF comics. and the artwork and stories were kinda bland at the time.
    fast forward a few years. Someone let me borrow Spawn issues 1-4.
    the art looked great. the story was fresh, so i was lured into the Image style.

    which i guess leads me to like DW a little more. yeah I am a noob about IDW so....what can ya do?

    Frankly, all i want is story. a good story.
    and from all the reading i have done, it can be done at a minimalist level or it can be done at a Harry Potter scale (like a 900 page book for a 10 year old to read seems ok.)

    he may not write comics full time, but I Like Harlan Ellison because he can throw out a 5 page story that can rival his novellas. why? good storytelling, knowing the craft and getting the job done consistently. Which I think most Comic Book writers can't do these days.

    I stuck with Spawn for 100 issues and have Curse of the Spawn's entire run for one reason. The story. it had something i could relate to. like Todd "i don't make toys anymore, i make fragile a$$ statues for sale @TRU" McFarlane had a great hook with Spawn. What deal would you make for the one thing you cared about most? part 2: how to deal with being screwed on the bargain.
    And I am not saying Todd's creation is the best, just that i liked it.
    The moment Spawn walked into hell, offed Malebolgia and won the "You get to go to heaven or rule in hell prize", i abandoned it because i could not relate anymore.

    And since i can't seem to find any way of connecting to these TF comics, i don't bother with em.

    There were elements of the G1 cartoon that would be a good way to hook me and get me back into it. like the autobots who were more pacifist and less committed to the cause? or Omega Supreme sulking, not wanting to help prime at all? flesh out the characters better than they have been done lately and i may come back.
    I don't want Character development like you'd study at Cambridge, but something better than the long winded speeches without meaning that is supposed to reveal character to me.
    you could do this with an epic looming in the background.

    that's my opinion, i could be wrong.
     
  19. Glitcher

    Glitcher Banned

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    Just British slang, son. I doubt you'd hear it on your side of the pond. This is what I love about being a Scot; our expletives are more colourful. Blork! :p 

    Correction: I liked Pat Lee's art. Admit it, his illustrations in Dreamwave's very first issue were pretty damn good. Sadly, they quickly degenerated into what Valkysas describes as the 'Stay Puft' Transformers. Now everyone is like, "Don Figueroa, fuck yeah!"

    Again, that's an American perspective. Although there are many critically acclaimed comics in the States, the general outlook towards the medium is that comics are geeky children's books. The roots of this go way back to the beginnings of Marvel and DC, which featured superheroes in goofy costumes, parading through hokey stories to stop mad supervillains in equally silly costumes. Kid's stuff, indeed.

    In Europe, things are different. Thanks to the efforts made by Hergé, Goscinny, Dupuis and Van Hamme, Franco-Belgian 'bandes-dessinées' are more sophisticated and appeal to adults as much as children. Tintin or Lucky Luke don't rely on super powers or daffy antics to sell books, yet they've still managed to establish themselves as some of history's most popular comic characters. Why? Because it was the stories that were the key factor, not the artwork. This is the main reason why comics here are published as hardback albums, unlike the paperback issues in the States (and without any advertisments peppered in, thank God). It helps keep the reader engaged with a longer, self-contained story instead of the mere snippets you get from a twenty-five page issue. Although this means longer intervals between albums in a series - usually a year compared to America's monthly deliveries - the structure and pacing of each story has more potential for creativity due to the extended format. Think of it this way: would you rather watch ten minutes of The Departed each month, or wait a year for it to be finished and watch the whole thing at once? I know which one would make for more entertaining viewing.

    If you want a better idea of what I'm talking about, try reading Scott McCloud's Understanding Comics. He explores the concept quite thoroughly.[/history lesson]
     
  20. flamepanther

    flamepanther Interested, but not really

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    I don't think I've seen advertisements in American comics since the mid 1990s...