Who became cyclonus

Discussion in 'Transformers Cyberverse and Cartoon Discussion' started by ChromedomeMaster, Apr 11, 2019.

?

Who became cyclonus?

Poll closed Apr 18, 2019.
  1. Skywarp

    14 vote(s)
    56.0%
  2. Bombshell

    11 vote(s)
    44.0%
  1. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    you are confusing 2 different episodes

    In the Rebirth he used the matrix to re-activate Vector Sigma, and talked to Alpha that way

    He did talk to alpha with the matrix only in “the return of Optimus” but the matrix was emptied after that
    but why do you keep assuming it’s only 300 years we are talking about?

    Like I said,the Beast wars characters come from a time about 300 years after the Great War

    But we have no idea when the Great War ended. It could have been an 9million years after the Rebirth goor all we know

    If we are talking the G1 cartoon strictly that is
     
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  2. Refletor3

    Refletor3 Well-Known Member

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    Your logic is good. (Example: 2+2=4)

    But their are other/different logics outside of your own that are also good.
    (Example: 8÷2=4)

    So....g1 comic = apples
    G1 animation = bananas
    Beast wars continuity= apples + bananas

    Let us assume your equation to be true. Why can't this be allowed to be a sequel? A male and a female have children with a blend of genes to suceed them don't they? Humans do not clone themselves.
     
  3. Refletor3

    Refletor3 Well-Known Member

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    [QUOTE="Primeultra, post: 17147339, member:

    Example. Who became cyclonus?[/QUOTE]

    See, you are still denying facts

    Who became Cyclonus was never, Never a plot hole or a contradiction

    It was just fans of Skywarp that were hurt by what they felt was a bad choice.I felt the same way, but I always accepted the evidence in the film, which was pretty clear

    Now up until about 10 years ago (maybe a bit longer) Skywarp supports at least had the possibility that it might have been an animation error to hang their hopes on

    In fact I recall a great deal of the debates (on fan sites like this) all pointing out all the animation errors of the film and claiming the same to support their beliefs

    But all that failed, all hope for Skywarp went out the window when the storyboards became public

    It’s clear as the sun, it’s written and drawn on those boards.No plot holes or contradictions at all

    Bombshells/or a clones body became Cyclonus
    [/QUOTE]

    No contradictions?
    Its clear is it?

    What is amazing is that you actually believe that! 20190816_173235.jpg 20190816_173450.jpg 20190816_173403.jpg
     
  4. Refletor3

    Refletor3 Well-Known Member

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    You got to think outside such narrow minded thinking.

    We both agree that g1 comics, us anime, and japanese anime are different realms.

    But what you fail to realize is the possibility of borrowing ideas from other realms to make a sequel.

    Examples: in g1 comics we have spiderman appearing. We have the lost world of marvel. Yet the anime burrowed this idea in dinobot island.....yet it is still in its own original story line and realm. People do this all the time. Aliens vs predator. Cobra commander appear in g1 anime. (An idea that marvel allready developed in gi joe vs transformers)....
    Headmasters was continued in transformers. Transformers the movie of the anime was incorporated into a future of comic book realm....
    Do you know how many totally different people have used ideas from other realms to fit into their own realms? This is art buddy not physics. Laws are constantly broken and recreated. Ideas are changed and blended. Which often result in new ideas. And sometimes the new ideas are claimed as sequels of old ones...despite differences.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
  5. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    Exactly Humans do not clone themselves .You don’t even realize how you just proved my point do you

    And children are not the direct continuation of either of their parents

    They are something NEW, with only parts of the 2 different people that came before

    The problem here is that the beast wars didn’t just incorporate a few ideas, it’s that they incorporated ideas that completely clash with each other

    We know they took the name “The Ark” for the ship from the comics, and that doesn’t present any contraction

    But it’s different when the borrowed Primus......if they had only borrowed the names “primus” that would have been something that could have been overlooked

    But that’s not all they did, with the introduction of “the covenant of Primus”, the transformers Bible, they introduced the concept of a transformers religion......and that was completely unheard of in the G1 cartoon

    In fact , the idea that the transformers had any religious notions was solely a comic book thing , and it totally contradicts everything we were told about the G1 cartoon autobots and decepticons combined

    The G1 cartoon had no concept of a transformer religion

    That, and everything else they borrowed from combined makes Beast wars incompatible as s “direct sequel”

    Oh yeah, there’s one more thing
    The writers themselfs said it wasn’t a direct sequel to either the comics or cartoon

    Who are we to tell them they are wrong
     
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  6. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    Yes it was clear
    At least to anybody with an analytical mind
    Yes, no contradictions

    It’s amazing that you can actually still deny the simple fact

    Let’s look at your first pic
    View attachment 28361729

    Now tell me, what exactly was the purposes of the movie and the cartoon series. It was an advertisement to sell products....Toys

    Now do you know anything about advertisement strategy and product placement?

    The goal is to draw focus to the main product you are trying to sell , make it stand out amongst the other items on screen by keeping most of the attention and action on the main product, placing the product near the center, upfront or left to right so that it looks bigger then the other products

    Now which one fits that bill in the first pic you posted?
    Answer=Bombshell not skywarp

    The one that was Bombshell (type) was the camara main focus, it was upfront,on the left, it’s bigger and closer, it’s the one the camara stays with throughout the transformation into a plane and follows it as it flys off

    What would be the point of putting the focus on a product in the back ground
    None

    They used the same strategy with Scourge and the sweeps

    It was Thundercracker that was at the center and upfront of the screen to give a bigger appearance , with the sweeps in the background left and right

    Your other 2 pics are honest to god animation errors, Quick as I pointed out before was the only hope Skywarp supporters had for years

    The idea that it was an animation error, like the ones in those pics, and like all the other errors in the film

    Then this was found
    upload_2019-8-16_19-29-24.jpeg

    .....proving it was never an animation error

    The artist animated the scene as the storyboards requested

    How can it be an error when they did what they were told

    Evidence of other mistakes can not disprove evidence of intentional acts
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
  7. Distant1

    Distant1 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for pointing that out, my main thing is that in my head-canon is that Hot Rod and Blasters tapes are created between 1985 and 2005 through Vector Sigma (like the Aerialbots) and hoping that this is not a continuity problem. Somehow, Optimus Prime can use the Matrix to re-awaken Vector Sigma to give Hot Rod and the tapes life.

    With Broadside and Metroplex, I think that hopefully they were created after the movie and perhaps in a similar way (obviously with Metroplex you have some logistical issues). However, with Broadside and Metroplex, I think that they could be created in a similar way to the Dinobots (no sign of Vector Sigma involved) as they never showed that much intelligence as I recall.

    It is just my perception of the show, I just saw the war ending at the conclusion of Rebirth, but there is nothing to stop Galvatron attacking other planets and Autobots trying to stop Decepticon forces, and there is no reason why the Decepticons could not attack Cybertron again.

    Digressing a bit, if the war did go on say for another 5M years (in line with the end of the last golden age until a major exodus), it kind of makes me wonder how long transformers could actually live for. I recall when Optimus Prime sees Alpha Trion, in the Search for Alpha Trion, Optimus Prime says to Alpha Trion that he never expects to see Alpha Trion again, I suspect that could have in part be because of Alpha Trion's age.
     
  8. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    It is a bit of a continuity problem, but you might think it’s not a big one

    Dialog from the rebirth:
    OPTIMUS PRIME
    Something is terribly wrong here.

    ULTRA MAGNUS
    Prime! Where are you going?

    OPTIMUS PRIME
    To get some answers!

    ULTRA MAGNUS
    Prime, where are you gonna get these answers you want?

    OPTIMUS PRIME
    From the one who created me. From Alpha Trion.

    ULTRA MAGNUS
    But he's in... Vector Sigma, the computer which gave us all life!

    OPTIMUS PRIME
    Right. And with the shell of the Matrix, I may be able to reactivate Vector Sigma, and merge with it.


    If he used the matrix in the between 1985 and 2005 then the dialog in the Rebirth doesn’t make sense since he would already know he can reactivate Vector Signa
    This presents problems as well
    You should re-watch season 3, they never displayed any signs of a lower body intelligence than any average transformer

    Infact they presented as a bit above Average

    Check out “Thief in the night” for a good example for both characters.....Metro had a rough sounding voice but he was far from stupid
    I would expect that the war would have gone on longer after the rebirth

    I would think that Optimuss surprise thy alpha was still alive would have been because of his age.......but based on the fact that Alpha is far older then anyone Optimus met

    Optimus himself was over 9 million years old at that point, and no one was shocked that Shockwave was still alive
     
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  9. Distant1

    Distant1 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for pointing that out. One thing, in the Key to Vector Sigma, Alpha Trion informs Optimus Prime that 'the Key to Vector Sigma will have different properties on Earth, which could destroy the planet'. Essentially how can Alpha Trion communicate with Optimus Prime, from beyond the grave so to speak, if no Matrix connection exists.

    My fall back position is with Hot Rod and Blasters tapes, maybe they were de-activated by the Constructicons and found by Cosmos, and rebuilt and given new life.

    One thing in Rebirth is that Optimus says that every Autobot leader guards the Vector Sigma chamber with their lives, but by the Search for Alpha Trion episode, it seems apparent that Optimus does not have plan to guard the Plasma Energy Chamber. I am aware that I am looking through the show in retrospect.

    I should, I would say that they never came across as stupid, I just do not recall them having much dialog.

    I am having serious trouble finding the production note to writers that said something like Cybertron was a built-up satelitte, I actually found it when I was at a public library, so it is not on my search history. I feel a bit like Starscream when he says something like you must believe me Megatron.

    I am sure I remember reading that for finding new Autobots they production team discussed freeing Autobots from a Decepticon jail on Cybertron.

    In my head, I have the Starscream Brigade episode and maybe after the movie, the Autobots raided the Decepticon HQ and found Autobot personality components and could bring Broadside back to life.

    I just loathe the thought of Broadside existing before 1984, as if he and SkyLynx were both alive how come the Autobots could not take control of Cyberton, they would seem more powerful than Shockwave and Seekers.

    Say Shockwave is 2 or million years younger than Alpha Trion, it makes it interesting to see how Shockwave would have aged over the next 2 or 3M years. With Optimus Prime, maybe he is only really 5M years old because of the crashed Ark.
     
  10. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    Well I never said there was no “matrix connection”

    But in the episode “the key to vector sigma”, everyone in that room heard what he told optimus

    Everyone heard his warning about the Key......not from the matrix but from CS itself

    Now please dont take this the wrong way, but I feel your desire for a origin story for all is a bit unrealistic

    They are a very long lived race, that had spread far beyond their homeworld long ago......I just don’t feel we need to know everyone’s birthdays lol
    Nope, you are confusing things
    Seems you need to re-watch the rebirth as well

    It was the “plasma energy chamber” also known as the Foundry were the original autobots bodies were forged that every autobot leader was charged with protecting with their lives

    Dialog From the script of “the rebirth”
    OPTIMUS PRIME

    The plasma energy chamber is the foundry in which the original Autobots' bodies were forged, millions of years ago. Since then, every Autobot leader has been charged with guarding the key--with his life.


    Plasma Energy Chamber - Transformers Wiki

    He was supposed to protect the plasma energy chamber, not the vector sigma chamber

    well a lack of dialog is not an indication of a lack of intelligence..... which was what it seemed you were implying when suggesting they may have been given life similar to the Dinobots
    I just feel you are mis-remembering and crossing information from other things you have read

    The only thing I kind of remember ever reading about Satellites and cybertron was from a UK book and the 2 moon bases in the 86 film

    And keep in mind, a moon is also known as a satellite

    The season 3 episode “Chaos” had Kup freeing robots from a jail cell, so I’m thinking that’s what you are mis-remembering

    Obviously I could be wrong, but that’s what it seems like to me

    I see no problem with them being alive in the 80s since as we know, many autobots were in different parts of the galaxy, in facts that’s what we were told about Skylynx

    Many of them were likely too far away to be of any help in those years

    And I wouldn’t assume that it was only Shockwave and Seekers.

    even if you factor in the time after the crash.....we have no idea how old he was when he went from Orion to Optimus

    It’s just a big unknown
     
  11. Refletor3

    Refletor3 Well-Known Member

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    Children are new. Yet they carry on the family name, some traditions, genes. We are mortal and we all die. But children can be called our successors.

    Beast wars was a new thing. Yet it is filled with evidence that suggests that it is continueing the g1 saga....in particular the animation. But you are free to dissmiss all the clear signs that indicate this fact.

    I do not see many clashes in ideas. In fact i see more clashes of ideas within g1 itself. Yet one can harmonize the ideas if one wants to. (This is an aspect of art too...(make harmony out of disharmony or vice versa....no rules in art.)

    Just because g1 does not cover something (eg religion, the ark, covenant of primus, does not mean it was not present. Certainly religion, and the ark existed even though they where not explicitly mentioned). I would argue that religion was present in g1 animation though.
     
  12. Refletor3

    Refletor3 Well-Known Member

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    I dissagree. The movies purpose was not exclusively all about selling toys.

    It is very clear that the movie depicts skywarp becoming cyclonus. He just happens to be behind bombshell clone, who also becomes another cyclonus.

    B0SuXYmIUAAxhwO.png
     
  13. Refletor3

    Refletor3 Well-Known Member

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    Another point. I think you rely to much on the intentions of artists involved. As if this alone determines the explanation. (I do not dissmiss that). But i think all fans have a right to make judgements about art. And other artists from a next generation have the right to re-create or make sequels. Even though it might not be exact clone copies or perfect harmony with the original. Yet even in g1 we have multiple artists and writers all drawing and writing different and sometimes even conflicting things. Yet as a whole, they are all unified and focused on a single storyline.
     
  14. Distant1

    Distant1 Well-Known Member

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    If there is a Matrix connection, Optimus or later Rodimus could perhaps reactivate Vector Sigma, just not merge with it, as per your previous post.

    This is a discussion about a 1980s cartoon, I am not taking offence to it. More worried about the cricket.

    My main thing is that in the Key to Vector Sigma, Vector Sigma is key to sentient life for Cybertroniums. Then there is a whole lot of new characters on the screens, with little to know explanations where they came from.

    With new characters I just want their story to fit in with preceding stories so to speak. In the Key to Vector Sigma episodes, it sounds like Vector Sigma has not been used in around 9M years. Everyone is like whoa is that Vector Sigma. With some small to standard-sized Autobots maybe Alpha Trion created them during the 4M year gap as they seem much younger than other Autobots.

    Skylynx, Springer and Blurr I can accept as per the files of Teletraan 2 that he spent most of the time away from Cybertron. But I think it fits in the Autobots being on the side of good 'one for all and all for one' if they are helping their fellow Autobots back on Cybertron, not just fleeing the war and starvation, especially if they are capable fighters.

    Also, I would love to see a series at the start of the war 9M years ago, and it would be good to know what Autobots were around back then.

    Typo, I meant plasma energy chamber, in any case by the mid-season 2, it does not look like the Autobots are doing much to protect it. For continuity, I just wish Optimus, did not have to say that they had to protect it with their lives.

    Frustrating that I could not find it. In the page that I read it has guidelines to Authors about the background of Cybertron, instructions not to use nuclear bombs and not to show a transformer in excessive suffering, or words to that effect.

    I remember the Kup episode, and it looks like none of those imprisoned robots joined the Autobots.

    Really like to know what you (or anyone else) thinks they were doing far away from Cybertron?

    Like I typed earlier in this post, 'I think it fits in the Autobots being on the side of good 'one for all and all for one' if they are helping their fellow Autobots back on Cybertron, not just fleeing the war and starvation, especially if they are capable fighters'.

    I like to think Runaround and Runamuck (maybe even the season 4 seekers) were alive in the 4M year gap as well as Punch/CounterPunch, but interested to know who else may have been fighting for the Decepticon cause during the 4M year gap?

    I also entertain the notion that there could have been another cassette playing lamp post.

    Like I typed earlier, IMO it would be good to see a series at or around the start of the war 9M years ago, and it would be good to know what Autobots were around back then and approximately when they were built. Ironhide and Kup are meant to be old so maybe they were created during the first Autobot - Decepticon war and many others between wars. Just like to get some feedback.
     
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  15. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    Exactly
    Which is why all the different G1 continuity are considered family

    Or have you not geared if the G1 continuity family?
    All related in one universe but no all directly related to each other

    Some are like children
    Examples;
    Marvel G1 and Marvel G2
    Or
    Marvel G1 and IDW Re-Gen

    Others are more like Cousins
    Example:
    Marvel g1 and Cartoon g1

    And that’s what Beast Wars is
    A cousin to both the comics and the cartoon
    Thanks again for proving my point
    Religion in itself is a major crash between the two, And I mean major

    and as I stated a person can except and harmonize anything but that’s called personal canon and re-writing

    And religion, as a concept for the transformers , Certainly were not present in the g1 cartoon what so ever

    The The closest thing they had was a king Arthur type of hero myth

    But if you want to try to argue they had religion I would love to see what you come up with
    And you would be 100% wrong

    That’s all the comics cartoon and the movie were all about, Or are you Going to tell me you don’t know how the brand and franchise started?

    The entire thing began when a Hasbro Executive saw the toys At a toy show in Japan and thought “boy we could sell these things”, Long story short they go tomorrow and ask him to come up with the idea
    Willfully denying all facts again

    There’s is zero logic in depicting the guy in the back ground as the named character

    And your picture isint from the movie

    The guy in the back ground isint “another “ cyclonus.....he is 1 member of the armada originally intended for Cyclonus to command, basically Cyclonus was supposed to have a group similar to the sweeps that looked like cyclonus

    And again, the storyboards prove you completely wrong

    Up until now, I’ve treated you with respect and other than a few exceptions you have done the same

    But the comment you just made , about cyclonus clearly in the back,now you seem to be arguing for argument sake alone

    If you can’t argue with any logic at all then this conversation may as well come to an end
    My arguments rely only on the facts of the situation and the statements made by the creators and whether or not the creators completed what they intended to do

    There are times that a creator wanted to do something with their story but never got to do it

    There are other times that they change their mind mid series

    what done with Beast Wars is neither of those types of situations

    The writers set out to take elements from both the G1 comic and Cartoon for their back story.....and at the start there were only small examples of this

    But s the series went on they continued to do so, and that last season drew very strongly from the comics

    Beast Wars is part of the family but not a direct sequel to either the comics or cartoon
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
  16. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I might be a little bit confused by everything that’s been said

    Matrix connection to Sigma the prime?
    Cricket?

    They never acted like “new guys” thou, think about the Aerialbots, they acted like what you would expect newly created robots to act like

    None of that was really seen with the others you are talking about. And I feel that , with those characters , their stories fit perfectly in with preceding stories.

    Again they are a long lived race, and we have seen that many left home for other parts of space and Skylynx, Springer and Blurr Can only be a very small example of how many must have been out their

    Remember Devon?
    I’m sure they were doing good where they were, season 2 showed us the the Decepticons had operations all over The galaxy.....that shockwave has stock piles of energy

    There’s got to be many Autobots out there

    I think the evidence suggests the opposite,it seems Optimus had the key with him on on earth....and Megatron didn’t seem to know the chamber even existed until Vector Sigma “allowed him to” as per the dialog

    Since Negatrib didn’t know about it, and the key was on earth, seems pretty protected to me

    If you ever find it let me know
    You can’t really say that
    For all we know they all went to live on Cyberton after the episode

    Maybe they all went to the Playboy mansion instead, who’s the say

    I believe we’ve had this conversation before, but we know there were many other colonies spread throughout space

    We also know that the cons had operations on different worlds, my guess they were either protecting their own colonies for combating those other operations

    I can see that thinking
    I would rather see a bunch of stories from the 20 year gap between season 2 and 3.......With maybe If you set 9 million years ago
     
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  17. ABrown

    ABrown Well-Known Member

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    The reformatted Insecticons weren't clones. They were the geniune articles. The Insecticon's clones weren't alive. They were non-sentient emotionless empty shells that only existed so long that the actual Insecticons had them under their remote control. Once the control was disrupted, they literally disappeared. Why would non-sentient emotionless empty shells say "nay" to being jettisoned into space? Furthermore, there was nothing to lead one to believe that the Insecticons produced any clones during the events of the movies.

    [​IMG]

    I would've preferred that Cyclonus had been Skywarp, but he wasn't. He used to be Bombshell. I spent YEARS of my life trying tot justify that he used to be Skywarp. But then I realized that the reason that he doesn't act anything like Bombshell, is because's he's not Bombshell anymore, he's CYCLONUS. While Galvatron was basically Megatron in a new body, that wasn't the case with the rest of the reformatted Decepticons. Just as Scourge isn't Thundercracker anymore, he's Scourge.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2019
  18. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    That’s not exactly correct
    There are a number of examples from the before the film that the clone army was placed under the control of Megatron

    Also, these one episode of season 2 in which the clones are huddled at Decepticons hq, talking to each other line they were at a party

    It was only once that they “disappeared”.

    It would have made no sense for the Insecticons to BOT produced clones before or during the battle for Autobot city.....but you are right in the fact that it wasn’t shown

    And side from animation errors, clones is the only way to explain them appearing after they encounter Unicron

    Well said
     
  19. Distant1

    Distant1 Well-Known Member

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    Transformers Scripts - Google Drive

    Please see the 'Transformers series update', you can read about how Cybertron could have been a space station, and the concept of Autobots being released from jail is discussed.

    Maybe a retcon with Alpha Trion receiving the matrix from Sentinel Prime could be done, interesting to know how the word 'hid' the matrix. I suspect Alpha Trion first put the Maxtrix in his chest but maybe the Matrix did not do much for him or maybe it gave him too much information which could adversely affect his decision making. Anyway, when Alpha Trion came across Orion Pax, he passed the Matrix on to him. Just my thoughts.

    In the last 35 years, maybe Optimus Prime and later Rodimus Prime can communicate with Alpha Trion (who is merged with Vector Sigma) through the matrix and Vector Sigma could be activated to give Autobots new life. But neither Optimus and later Rodimus have to merge with Vector Sigma to give new Autobots life. I know we seem to be going over the same old ground. Just like this clarified.

    I remember you are not a sports fan, but cricket can be a seriously dangerous game, but you can wear a sweater while playing (if it is cold enough) and have a break for tea.

    If say Broadside was created post the 1986 movie and before the Thief in the Night episode, they just did not give the audience a look into his very early development.

    If Broadside was around pre-2005, I just think what was he doing in the movie? The big known Autobots would outnumber the big known Decepticons and surely the Autobots would have the upper hand.

    I can agree that there are potentially many Autobots and Decepticons out their, other than SkyLynx I am just against another very big Autobot out there prior to 1984, just think it gives the Autobots too much of an advantage which seems to go against the Decepticons seemingly having the upper hand on Cybertron prior to 2005. If say there was some other giant Decepticons (other than Devastator and say Devastator size) Megatron would have surely called the giant robot or combiner to earth, I suspect.

    Good point!

    Me too, but it would be good if a series 2.5 could potentially link up fluently with a prequel 9M years ago.
     
  20. Refletor3

    Refletor3 Well-Known Member

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    +119
    So how come the insecticons appear in season 3?

    You are free to believe , but according to the threds votes: 56% of the people voted that skywarp turned into cyclonus.

    (My beliefs are that cyclonus is made from parts of a clone of bombshell and skywarp, but he is neither one.) 20190817_195746.jpg 200px-KickbackShrapnelFFOD1.JPG.jpg