What were the problems with Prime?

Discussion in 'Transformers Cyberverse and Cartoon Discussion' started by Jalen Frisby, Apr 9, 2019.

  1. TFXProtector

    TFXProtector Well-Known Member

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    I think that's what happened with their professional relationship. They split from each other a couple of years ago, maybe three? And it seems like they're doing better as just friends than as working partners. Still, I'm not trusting either of them with any property they get their hands on. Some of their creative choices have been remarkably questionable.
     
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  2. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Lean Mean Angry Machine

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    See, the problem with Raf isn't so much that he did the black site hack as it is the fact he's virtually a deus ex machina - he solves every technology problem almost effortlessly, even though most of the time we're talking about technology that should be by all logic impossibly more sophisticated than anything Raf would have access to.

    And yet he is somehow instantly better at it than the very robot aliens who have been working with such technologies before humanity even existed. Soundwave can't even lock Raf out of a network by isolating and then blocking the IP port - he has to physically sever a connection in order to get around a kid whose biological limitations should mean he is incapable of matching Soundwave's speed because Soundwave is a literal computer able to think exponentially faster than the human brain.

    And then going back to the black site, Raf simply hacks into it from the comfort of his own home. Like, he's never actually in the line of fire even though there's some pointless battle going on outside the control center - the Decepticons never at any point seriously go after Raf. Now, if Raf had to be on site to do the hack, then it would have been pretty interesting and raised the stakes properly, but the whole affair being done from his own room just takes the teeth out of the situation.

    Ultimately, Raf is too smart to the point he damn well shouldn't be in the public education system in bumfuq, Nevada - he should be getting multiple degrees from the highest institutions in the country for understanding shit Steven Hawking couldn't realistically ever wrap his head around.

    Sure, it's a cartoon, but Raf was way too crucial to solving virtually any problem that couldn't be brute forced. And then he's utterly ignored because what finally tips the Decepticons off to the usefulness of humans? Miko pushing a goddamn button. The act of pushing a goddamn button outclassed Soundwave getting outplayed twice at his own job, somehow.
     
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  3. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP Be strong enough to be gentle

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    The problem with Prime is that it clearly lacked any idea of what the hell it was doing, what the hell it wanted to be, and where the hell it was going.

    It had no focus, and ultimately seemed like a show that just accomplished nothing of merit. It wanted to be an epic, but could barely string two episodes together coherently without botching something integral. It had all these ideas and just mishandled them horribly because it had no idea what to do with them, even if it was obvious.

    No, it really isn't. Not when it removes any sense of interest or proper resolution to storylines it's a part of.
     
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  4. Slaskia

    Slaskia Well-Known Member

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    Just a quick theory/thought on Raf. It's possible he's a mathematical savant, like the one character from a Mass Effect 2 DLC (Project Overlord I think?). In that DLC, said character was able to both understand and 'talk' to the Geth in their 'language' (which sounded a bit like BumbleBee's beeps and boops in that show). If Raf is the same, that could explain his OPness on the computer front, but that doesn't explain how Soundwave still couldn't handle him (when the one guy from MECH just shut him down in seconds in the 'Convoy' ep), or being able to hack into a top secret facility. (those places are on a completely separate network. I don't think you can even hack in via Wi-fi) Or the school thing.
     
  5. Insurgent

    Insurgent The Amazing Tango Mysterio

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    This is my biggest gripe, with Optimus in general these days. He's lost something. He's just a super serious, dull, flat person. At least in the movies, he expressed emotions, rage, frustration, weariness, the occasional moment of levity. But G1 toon Optimus still had the best personality to me (and Primal, but he's not a Prime). Whereas the toon Prime was serious, he treated threats gravely, but we also saw a personality. He played basketball, he made jokes. I believe there was a similar conversation to the one above in an ep where someone asked Optimus if he wanted to hear something and he replied "As the humans say, lay it on me man." We would never have an Optimus act like that these days.
     
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  6. maurice

    maurice Well-Known Member

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    Very one sided as problem with most tf shows.
     
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  7. IamaMeatRabbit

    IamaMeatRabbit Well-Known Member

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    • Optimus was boring and rarely showed any emotion or personality.
    • Bumblebee couldn’t talk.
    • Arcee was annoying.
    • The show had such a weird relationship with character death. Cliffjumper died in the first episode, but since the viewer’s didn’t have any time to get to know him. So his death didn’t matter. Then in the last episode Optimus died. But he has no personality, so who cares? Meanwhile, when Bulkhead gets severely injured and everyone is like “He’s gonna die, OH MY GOSH!!!1” he doesn’t die. Instead he’s back to normal in a few episodes.
    • Wasted potential with Unicron, the Predacons, MECH, Breakdown and many more.
    • Boring relic hunts. Armada does this way better with the Minicons.
    • Expensive animation prevented new characters from being introduced.
    • Good ideas were never used. For example, the Maximals were going to show up, but this idea was scrapped.
    • Dinobots were teased but never showed up.
    Now, despite all this, I do still somewhat like Prime. I think it’s one of the better Transformers shows I’ve seen. Plus, it’s 1000 times better than it’s sequel, RID 2015.
     
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  8. Cliffjumper

    Cliffjumper green

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    The only problem is.....THEY KILLED ME IN THE FIRST EPISODE!!!
     
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  9. Gzstg

    Gzstg Well-Known Member

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    then resurrected you as a zombie only to kill you again.
     
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  10. TLK Barricade

    TLK Barricade Keep calm and Hail Megatron.

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    Transformers: Prime is, in my opinion, one of the best series we've gotten so far, and I hope to see more like it in the future, but even I have to admit that it wasn't exactly perfect. Autobot Burnout especially has some pretty good points about it, though he did make a few mistakes here and there (one of which Slaskia already corrected him on, so I won't include it here):

    Alpha Trion did help defeat Unicron, but he didn't help put the Chaos Bringer inside the Earth, nor could he have possibly known he was in there without having been to the planet (and there is no evidence to suggest he had). Earth was formed when Unicron's comatose body started collecting space debris around it (because he apparently has his own gravitational pull).
    "Mountains" of abuse? Before Predaking revealed his sapience to them, Starscream was the only Decepticon who wronged him in any way, and the worst Starscream did was hit him in the face with a pipe, which seemed to do little more than annoy Predaking. Everyone else (aside from the Autobots, of course) treated him pretty well, so it's no wonder he didn't even consider turning on them.

    Like I said, though, you have some very good points aside from those. I still love the show, but it's definitely not perfect. Here are a few issues I had with it:

    • Optimus Prime rarely showing any emotion and flat-out refusing to have any fun whatsoever during his free time.
    • Not quite enough characters on either side (it probably would've helped if so many didn't get killed off prematurely). Personally, I would've loved to see a few flying Autobots and at least one combiner team on each side (preferably the Aerialbots and Combaticons).
    • Raf's ability to understand Bumblebee not being explained.
    • Some of the relationships not being fleshed out enough (Bulkhead and Breakdown's rivalry, Arcee and Tailgate's partnership, Skyquake and Dreadwing's brotherhood, etc.).
    • MECH not getting enough screen time or being able to accomplish much. Imagine if they had been able to build their very own army of killer robots and the war officially became three-sided.
    • Airachnid's fate. Instead of finally being killed by Arcee, the writers decided to lock her up until the final season, during which she returns for only a single episode and is left stranded on one of Cybertron's moons with her Insecticon army (whom she later decides to feed upon, presumably turning them into vampires like her in the process) by Soundwave, never to be seen again. It's too bad the sequel series was so child-friendly, otherwise we could have gotten an episode where they somehow managed to return and Arcee finally got to put her longtime nemesis down.
    • Not enough Autobot deaths (and two of the Autobots who do kick the bucket just had to be resurrected solely because they're the most popular).
    • Ultra Magnus, who is Optimus Prime's protege, second-in-command, and presumed good friend, is treated as a pathetic weakling who can't hold his own against Megatron for even a single minute and a complete failure as a commander. What's even worse is that this isn't the only incarnation of the character to be treated unfairly. At least once, I'd like to see him be written not only as Optimus Prime's permanent successor, but as a successor who's actually good at the job.
    • We never got a proper Unicron fight due to him being inside the Earth, as his transformation would have destroyed the planet and killed everything on it with the possible exception of the other Transformers.

    (The fact that I still don't hate the show surprises even me.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
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  11. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Lean Mean Angry Machine

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    Except in the Covenant of Primus, Alpha Trion is firmly established as one of the Thirteen. If I remember correctly, it was the Thirteen who put Unicron into Earth, therefore Alpha Trion was there when it went down. Plus, the idea that he didn't know exactly where all that crap ended up doesn't work given that completely undermines the point of trying to do all that coordinate bullshit.

    It was a turn of phrase. If you couldn't tell, I don't find the show all that enjoyable.
     
  12. TLK Barricade

    TLK Barricade Keep calm and Hail Megatron.

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    I was going by what the show alone told us, not any of the expanded material. Said expanded material (not just the Covenant, but the other novels, as well, along with the comics and games,) contains so many self-contradictions that Hasbro ended up abandoning the idea of an "Aligned continuity" anyway, so I don't think the Covenant is actually canon to Prime, instead taking place in an alternate universe where similar (but not identical) events happened.
     
  13. Fenrys

    Fenrys Formerly Tigatron2002

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    nobody "put unicron into earth" rather unicrons dead body ended up becoming earth over time. there was no planet earth originally
     
  14. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Lean Mean Angry Machine

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    The book was written in concert with the show, though - they are the only instances where Soulus Prime exists. According to Hasbro, the book IS canon to Aligned. And yes, there are contradictions abound, much like how the Nemesis is and is not Trypticon simultaneously, but that doesnt change the fact they are supposed to be in the same context officially.
     
  15. ABrown

    ABrown Well-Known Member

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    Was it perfect? Absolutely not. But I have no complaints. It's one of my favorite action cartoons ever created, Transformers or otherwise.
     
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  16. Liege Nemesis

    Liege Nemesis Snarks about old cartoons

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    It feels like a lot its issues came down to money. The show cost a ton to make, necessitating the small cast (just like Beast Wars). It was budget issues that forced them to axe Breakdown and marginalize Airachnid given that they were the two most expensive actors on the payroll (presumably. I mean, it wouldn't shock me if Welker/Cullen cost more, but they aren't exactly going to off the two primary characters). It wouldn't surprise me if the artifact hunt plotline and the lack of a big, grand expansive battle type thing vs Unicron or whatever wasn't the result of having to scale things back and write "smaller" episodes that wouldn't be so pricey to produce.

    Personally I liked the focus on Arcee. She and Jack had the best human/transformer dynamic on the show and it was refreshing to get a version of Arcee that had a reasonably deep characterization and not have the show be focused so much on Bumblebee thanks to his super-breakout star power on the heels of the Bayverse movies.

    My biggest complaint was that the seasons got weaker as we progressed and I felt that Predacons Rising was a very underwhelming finale, especially tacked on over the otherwise very good S3 final episode.

    Having watched basically every bit of official animated Transformers fiction produced since G1 except the Rescue Bots shows, Prime is easily in the top group of shows when it comes to entertainment value, storytelling, and visual appeal. Whether that's well-deserved or a symptom of the fact that most TF animated series have been lacking in some crucial regard is up to you.
     
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  17. Collectotron

    Collectotron Well-Known Member

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    I really like Prime but upon a recent rewatch I've realised the amount of problems it has the worst is that many characters never get their story arcs resolved such as :

    1.Arcee wants revenge on Starscream and Airachnid which goes nowhere Airachnid gets sent to Cybertron's moon and nothing happens to Starscream.

    2.Bulkhead's rivalry with Breakdown was one of the best parts of the show but because they couldn't afford to pay Breakdown's va they just kill him off suddenly.


    Another issue is the sudden resolution of plots such as:

    1.Bulkhead's injury Ratchet even says he may never be fully functional again but then 3 episodes later he's back on the battlefield.

    2.Season 2's ending was great the Autobots were scattered and defeated but then 3 episodes later they're back together in a base meaning season 2's ending was totally pointless.

    Another issue was some of the absolute bullshit in the plots such as:

    1.At the start of season 3 when Wheeljack does that risky stunt above the smelting pool to escape and then Starscream reveals he let him escape to lead them to the other Autobots there is no way he could of known that would work.
     
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  18. Slaskia

    Slaskia Well-Known Member

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    I like to think that the ep 'Partners' concluded the arc with Arcee wanting revenge in regards to Starscream. It's somewhat resolved with Airachnid in 'Armada' when Arcee imprisons her in the insecticon stasis pod, though I do agree Airachnid's storyline as a whole is hanging thread that should have been cleaned up.

    Agreed. There was so much teasing build-up regarding their history, only to get no resolution.


    More like four/five eps, but still I think part of the issue here is that we have no indication on how much time passes (in universe) between many episodes. How much time has passed between 'Toxicity' (when he was nearly killed), 'Hurt', 'Out of the Past', 'New Recruit' and 'The Human Factor' (when he get's cleared for battle)? The humans never wear different clothing. There's no change of seasons (or even mention of them: granted, considering I live in a similar area to Jasper, 'seasons' in general may not 'exist'! XD). In fact, the only time what day of the week is even mentioned is 'Scrapheap' from what I recall.
    Granted, this issue is a common one with shows, from what I've seen, but it is a detail I'd like to see taken into consideration more....

    Agreed. Their separation should have lasted a whole season, imo, with the destruction of Darkmount and the return of OP saved for the season finale. Instead, we had that rushed and we got flying robo dragons (not that I don't mind dragons....)
     
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  19. TheSoundwave

    TheSoundwave Bounty Hunter

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    One of my main ones is that it kind of lacks vision and premise. Say what you will about RID, Cyberverse, or even Combiner Wars (I don't even like the latter two), but at least they have distinct premises. What exactly is Prime's "thing"? I'd be curious to know what went down during the pitch meeting. "Well, it's kind of like the other shows, but it's 20% darker". The only thing that stands out is the animation and the film-style cinematography. Strip that away, and you mostly have a show that's just aping off superior incarnations. And yes, I am considering the Bayverse superior. Despite some major problems, the Bayverse legitimately has a clearer identity than Prime does. You can't argue Bay doesn't have a vision, or that the movies lack premise. In a way, the Bayverse and Prime are opposites. The Bayverse is decent premises executed poorly. Prime is nothing executed decently.

    Like a lot of Orci and Kurtzman projects, Prime feels like a rough draft that should have been revised before committing it to screen. There are so many "whys" for me. Why three human kids? Why not just take the most interesting characteristics of each (pretty much completely eliminating Jack) and simplify them down to one or two? Why Airachnid? Why hype this up as a darker show, and then essentially abandon that after the first mini-series? Why not kill more characters instead of having characters mope over Cliffjumper for three seasons and one movie? Why does Soundwave not talk until the third season? Why do they build up a Predacon army, only to kill that army before they hatch, and then bring in a zombie Predacon army anyway? And what was up with making it look like Smokescreen was going to replace Optimus Prime at the beginning of Season 3? Everyone knows they won't do that! Why not use Hot Rod in that role, which would legitimately leave us wondering?

    Again, there were interesting ideas, I just think they needed to be refined. And they needed to be in service of something more interesting than "a slightly darker take on Transformers". If it weren't for TFP's standout animation, I legitimately don't think it would be considered a notable TF show. Just imagine TFP with RID's animation. Would you really think it was anything special?

    One other thing I take problem with is the design aesthetic. It's easily one of the ugliest in the brand for me. It's weird seeing these super-stylized and angular robots alongside humans who kind of look like typical animated characters, and semi-realistic backgrounds and automobiles. Animated's style works because everything else in the show reflects it. I also think the faces in TFP are often disproportionate (Optimus -the main Autobot- being one of the worst).
     
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  20. Voidseeker

    Voidseeker Active Member

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    1. Some of the designs we're unappealing I despised tfp Starscream's design that said I loved wheeljacks for being a badass homage to G1 robo deathstroke.

    2. The main antagonist has his head buried in the sand half of the time he acted like a smart ass but Megatron always threw away opportunities that could've lead him down the path of permanent victory "Total victory is within my grasp" He also rarely ever lead a charge on the front and had a tendency to make dopey decisions.

    3. Cowardly Starscream and the death of skyquake they pulled a micheal bay here and just flushed all the characters potential down the toilet by reanimating him. As for starscream he's way to cowardly to the point it makes you wonder why the hell megatron would promote him to the position of second In command being associated with cowardice in war this much when you have a milenia of experience under you're belt makes zero sense.

    4. Vehicle parts being attached to Cybertronians without alt modes I mean there already handing you a giveaway as to what there going to transform into when you see there parts to add to that it makes no sense, and it always bugged me throughout the series.