What makes a movie objectively good/bad? Specifically the Transformers Movies?

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Zemah, Aug 25, 2020.

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Can a movie be objectively good/bad?

  1. Yes!

    18 vote(s)
    43.9%
  2. No!

    7 vote(s)
    17.1%
  3. Maybe...

    2 vote(s)
    4.9%
  4. Not sure...

    3 vote(s)
    7.3%
  5. It depends.

    11 vote(s)
    26.8%
  1. Arrogant Arachnid

    Arrogant Arachnid Banned

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    I'll start then.
    One of the biggest problems I can think of that's objectively bad about this movie is that the aspect ratio changes between shots, due to two different cameras being used. It's distracting and looks terrible and I don't really think there's any defending it. I know I already talked about this in my own post but y'know.
     
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  2. Hobbes-timus Prime

    Hobbes-timus Prime Well-Known Member

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    It goes back to artist intent. If it's what Bay wanted, it's not objectively bad. Even if you don't like it. Artist intent has to be the starting point for an objective evaluation. Anything else is a subjective response.
     
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  3. Arrogant Arachnid

    Arrogant Arachnid Banned

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    No, it really doesn't? That is a objectively bad thing to have in a movie. Besides do you really believe that was his intent? Come on
     
  4. Hobbes-timus Prime

    Hobbes-timus Prime Well-Known Member

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    I'm not saying it was his intent. I'm saying without knowing if it was or not, we can't conclude. I'm not claiming to be a mind reader.

    But plenty of movies have changing aspect ratios, so I'm not ruling it out.
     
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  5. Arrogant Arachnid

    Arrogant Arachnid Banned

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    Yes but other movies change aspect ratios for certain scenes, like an action scene. TLK does it between shots.
     
  6. Hobbes-timus Prime

    Hobbes-timus Prime Well-Known Member

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    So? The definition of "objective" isn't "scenes vs. shots."
     
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  7. Arrogant Arachnid

    Arrogant Arachnid Banned

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    Yes it is? Shots means the aspect ratio constantly changes throughout the entire movie for no real reason, that's a problem.
     
  8. Hobbes-timus Prime

    Hobbes-timus Prime Well-Known Member

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    Stop arguing in circles. We just established that we don't know if there's a reason or not. You're assuming there isn't - and you might be right - but an assumption can't establish an objective standard.

    If, say, you found an interview with Bay where he says the changing aspect ratio was due to a production error in the cameras used and he didn't want that to happen, then we could begin to make that evaluation.
     
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  9. Arrogant Arachnid

    Arrogant Arachnid Banned

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    Even if it was a production error it is still an objective fault with the movie. I don't see how intent matters.
    Look we are indeed arguing in circles and the OP requested to avoid arguments, and I don't think we're gonna be agreeing on this. So I say we just leave it here.
     
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  10. ChaosDonkey

    ChaosDonkey Lord Brain

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    guess it was an objective fault in Dark Knight as well. And Tron Legacy
     
  11. Hobbes-timus Prime

    Hobbes-timus Prime Well-Known Member

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    Artist intent is the only basis with which we can make an objective judgment. Did they achieve their intent, even if you don't like what they wanted to do? Then it's objectively good. Did they fail, even if you like the failure*? Objectively bad.

    Your subjective response to someone's perfectly executed intent is valid, but it doesn't make their art objectively bad. It just means it isn't your cup of tea. Which is allowed.



    *The movie "The Room" would be a great example of this. Wiseau was attempting to make a serious drama and ended up making one of the all time great comedies. People love it, but not for the reasons he intended. Cult classic, but objectively bad.
     
  12. Arrogant Arachnid

    Arrogant Arachnid Banned

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    Changing between shots and scenes are two very different things.
     
  13. Shadow25

    Shadow25 Well-Known Member

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    I love the IMAX aspect ratio but TLK handled it terribly.

    In The Dark Knight and Revenge of the Fallen, there are specific sequences shot in IMAX. In ROTF, when the Forest Battle begins, the camera expands, and you are in that aspect ratio for the entirety of the sequence. Then the battle ends, and the aspect ratio goes back to standard. That's pretty straightforward and fine.

    In AOE, the camera does shift between two ratios multiple times in the same sequences, but it's only two and it's usually not done in a jarring way.

    In TLK, there are literally 7+ aspect ratios being used that are haphazardly cycled through at any given moment. It's a headache.
     
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  14. ChaosDonkey

    ChaosDonkey Lord Brain

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    Doesn't matter, its still shape-shifting.
    Sometimes it works, many times it's awfull and annoying.
     
  15. Arrogant Arachnid

    Arrogant Arachnid Banned

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    Dunno how else to word this, I simply don't agree artist intent is required to judge whether or not something is objectively good or bad.

    It actually does matter, quite a lot.
    Take the scene of the woman, Cade, Anthony Hopkins and Hot Rod. While Cade and the woman are arguing, the aspect ratio shifts over and over again mid shots, it's distracting as all hell.
    Or when Cade is on the roof, not only does the aspect ratio change, but the shots are super fast.
    When it happens during a scene swap, you only notice if for like 2 seconds and then adapt instantly. That can't happen when it happens shot by shot.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 26, 2020
  16. Hobbes-timus Prime

    Hobbes-timus Prime Well-Known Member

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    That's fine, but then you have to establish some other metric to judge the art that doesn't cite your own personal reaction. If you can provide one, I'm open to changing my position. But I do need you to provide one.

    You saying the aspect ratio change disorients you isn't objective by definition. It's your subjective response (and it's one I share with you...I'm not saying I like it). But what would make the changing aspect ratios objectively bad beyond the fact that we don't like it?
     
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  17. Arrogant Arachnid

    Arrogant Arachnid Banned

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    I don't know what to tell you, I think why an aspect ratio constantly changing is a bad thing speaks for itself.
    To me, the fact that there are no good things, no positive thing to come out of a constantly shifting aspect ratio makes it objectively bad.
     
  18. Zemah

    Zemah ’Til all are one

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    On what basis is it objectively bad though? You say it's because it distracts you and looks terrible, but that is only your opinion. I'm not saying I like it, because I don't - but just like yours, it's merely my subjective view. Is there any ground, any support or fact which discloses that changing aspect ratio, like it was done in TLK, is objectively bad?
     
  19. AutobotAvalanche

    AutobotAvalanche Number One in Boogieland

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    Objective: TLK frequently shifts aspect ratio.
    Objective: I personally found this disorienting and distracting. (Subjective opinion, but it's an objective truth that I feel this way)
    Objective: many people feel the same way.
    Not Objective: the frequently shifting aspect ratio in TLK is bad.
     
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  20. ChaosDonkey

    ChaosDonkey Lord Brain

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    I think 2 and 3 are just something a lot of people have in common.
    Like hair color or headaches :) 

    I feel that your feeling that you love the imax ratio is subjective. :) 
    I do agree with you.