Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Soca Taliban, Jul 10, 2014.
You're freedom to throw a punch ends at my face. Same principle for Optimus. And the nitpicking continues.
This is the best way to think of it. OP did not go back on his belief that freedom is the right of all sentient life. The writer "fucked up again" lol.
OP kept to his belief and he gave the Dinobots their freedom back not once but twice. Once when he freed them from the prison ship and again giving them their freedom after the Hong Kong battle, when he released them and told them they were free.
Now, I do think "the writer" could have wrote that scene a bit differently and not have OP threaten Grimlock with death as he did, and still be able to get his point across and get the Dinobots to aid him. It was a bad choice in words on the "writer's" part and a bad choice on Bay's part to allow that line to be used in the context it was.
OP could have easily said "I give you your freedom back! Now stand with me against those that took your freedom or stand against me and all that I stand for!"
Great, this again.
I think they just wanted an excuse for Prime to fight Grimlock
Even Optimus Prime has his limits.
For some reason, I can very clearly picture Michael Bay reading the title of this thread and going, "Meh, hippie liberal BS, MY Optimus is going to be a badass!"
Because that line holds no weight, it was incredibly forgettable. Sounds more like the movie tagline, or what they cram into every trailer/tv spot (oh wait).
Based on what? The cinematic Dinobots have no preexisting characterization prior to this point. I see many people making presumptions based on established history in other fictional sources.
Here's the thing. A lot of people are lauding Prime for this particular scene, citing his desire to save his family and the humans they are sworn to protect from destruction. WWell, perhaps Grimlock was protecting his family. From a logical standpoint, it's unlikely that Lockdown kept them fully "charged" as their obvious size and power could prove disastrous. Perhaps Grimlock knew that his "family" could be hurt or killed, and stepped up to defend against that.
Based on that logic, Grimlock is the real hero, putting his own family's interest ahead of Primes.
I am going to end this thread right now. The Dinobots are Autobots. People are seeing Autobot emblems on them. Autobots are soldiers. Optimus Prime is their commander. When the commander gives you an order, you are expected to do your duty. If you refuse a direct order from your commanding officer in wartime you have committed mutiny and that is punishable by death. Its not a freedom issue, its a responsibility you owe your commander.
Grimlock fucking roared and proceeded to attack Optimus, after he FREED them from bloody prison, and pretty much just said to them "stand with me and my family, and help us defeat this dangerous threat... Or stand against me". Grimlock started the fight, and looked like he literally wanted to kill Optimus, because he's a hot-headed brute that doesn't like for anyone to tell him what to do. Optimus gave him a chance to join him peacefully, it didn't work, so Optimus had to show his authority and beat Grimlock's ass in order for him to listen. Optimus wasn't actually going to kill Grimlock, he just needed the Knight to yield and listen to him. After their duty helping the Autobots was done, Optimus set them free and waved goodbye.
Grimlock has and always will be a hot-head that hates ANY authority accept for his own, ESPECIALLY Optimus Prime's.
Except the Dinobots were held prisoners (probably in some form of stasis) aboard Lockdown's acquired ship, for thousands of years. They more than likely did not recognize Optimus as one of the Primes they served under. The trust and loyalty to Optimus was not automatic and understandably so.
My point is as their commander, it is his right to command them to fight. He doesn't need to ask for it. Soldiers are supposed to follow orders. It's not an enslavement issue.
I see there might be two possible solutions
1. Movie Optimus has adopted Nova Prime's philosophy- Freedom is the right of all sentient beings- freedom from the tyranny of will!
2. There's a terrible bit of dialog in the first movie where Megatron is going on about humans being scum and should just be killed off and Prime retorts "they have the right to choose." Now this line has always seemed funky as it implies they have the right to choose whether or not a genocidal maniac kills them but I wrote it off as just bad dialog. Obviously, this quote is canon for movie Prime-he honestly believes you have the right to choose if a genocidal maniac (in this case Optimus) kills off you and your people (this case the dinobots.) He was only bestowing Grimlock the honor of the decision. Considering Drift is introduced by threatening to kill bumblebee, and Optimus's first words meeting Cade are "I'LL KILL YOU!" this may actually be the movie version of the universal greeting.
I understand where you're coming from. That being said, Optimus did kind of make a hypocrite of himself. He firmly stated that freedom is the right of all sentient beings. Irregardless of them being soldiers, the Dinobots and other Autobots do have a right to choose to live their own lives. They fight WITH Optimus, not FOR Optimus. They fight for the same cause, freedom. Optimus basically told the Dinobots to either fight FOR him or die. That's not leadership, that's tyranny.
That's a bit dishonest...
They do. And they would have been given a nicer choice had the lives of thousands of people not hung on every second.
Their freedom ends when their choice, or lack of choice, leads to the death of thousands.
I'm sorry, but that is a weak argument. For one, you are presupposing that the Autobot military functions in the same manner as our own (depending on which country you hail from). Two, it is most likely that the Dinobots' existence predates that of Prime, and so the Autobot insignia Slug bears on his crest may have represent something differently.
And besides, based on that premise, then the creators have every right to recall Prime to serve whatever mission they deem appropriate, as is their prerogative as their creator and assumingly his leader.
I am pretty sure he didn't mean absolute freedom, where you can do anything you want with out consequence. They are free to join the cause if they want, but doing so comes with responsibility to the chain of command. That's not tyranny, that's the law.
Separate names with a comma.