I always thought it was originally planned to be the last movie in the franchise (before AOE was announced of course). All the Decepticons were killed one after another. It sure seemed like it was a last stand.

 

Yes it was, and TF4 was meant to be a very soft reboot (just new characters, but set in the same movieverse).

 

It was originally billed as the big send off. Bay was talking about how he wasn't going to do any more Transformers movies and Paramount at the time seemed like they might actually get bold enough to reboot Transformers because the trend had been run three movies and reboot.

If Paramount knew they were going to chicken out then they wouldn't have wiped out all the A list Decepticons. It would be like Warner Brothers killing all the A list Batman villains and deciding they could carry on with Calendar Man, Penny Pincher, and Kite Man.

 

like kite man wouldn't single handedly carry the whole batman franchise   filthy casual

 

Yes. And honestly Paramount should have stuck to their guns. I thought Dark of the Moon was a great ending to the franchise.

 

Agreed. However they kind of shot themselves in the foot because of all the big name decepticons that got killed off. Unless they find a way to bring them back, it looks like Screamer, Shockwave, and Soundwave won't ever be seen again until the inevitable reboot years from now

 

It was, Bay marketed this movie has being the final movie he would direct and the final movie in this universe, heck he even said that one point that he wanted to end it in a way that the studio would have to reboot it if they were to continue (of course that didnt happened) and thats why most of the A-List Cons died, because this was meant to be the last movie in this universe, so they had no reason to keep Megatron, Starscream, Soundwave and Shockwave alive after this.

Then the movie made 1 billion and the rest is history.

 

well they still have that prequel movie, so DOTM wont be the last time we will see the movie version of Starscream, Soundwave and Shockwave

 

Yes, it most likely was, but I am glad as hell it was not the end of the Bayverse. Honestly as strange as this may sound, while I did enjoy DOTM, and it did kill off the named Decepticons (or so we thought) it never felt like the fictional universe was complete at its conclusion. It always felt like the protagonists simply thought it was over, but there were other things going on that they were not aware. I say that not just because the Movieverse is continuing. I say that because some of the things the characters say near the end. For instance, Megatron saying, "Who would you be without me, Prime?" and Prime's response of, "Time to find out!" always felt to me like Megatron knew that Optimus could not be Optimus without Megatron. And Megatron is proven right in the end.

The same thing is true of Prime's closing monologue in DOTM; it is eerily predictive. Prime talks about how there may be times when their allies turn against them, but that the Autobots will never not protect Earth and its people. And what ends up happening? Humans turn against the Autobots, and they seriously contemplate leaving Earth and leaving humanity to its fate.

Also, by continuing after DOTM it actually allowed the films to go into very interesting directions and introduce very interesting characters in my opinion. Post-DOTM we have Lockdown, the Pathetic Dirty Foursome, Cemetery Wind, Transformium, man-made Transformers and humans being manipulated by Megatron, Creators, Knights, Dinobots, and now Arthurian legend, Hot Rod, Onslaught, Barricade's apparent survival, and more. This all extremely interesting in my opinion, and in my opinion post-DOTM Bayverse is the most exciting the films have ever been.

 

To a certain extent I do agree. However, with Galvatron in now they could've added Cyclones, Scourge, Motor master, or another somewhat big name to carry on. Apparently Onslaught is in TLK. Plus we have to remember that there are others they could add in that weren't big names in G1. This is after all a movieverse.

 

Pretty good points

 

Dotm definitely was the original end all of the bayverse. Of course as others have said, studio makes money, thus things happen. AOE was meant to be that soft reboot and "re-styling" of the universe. Look at the design differences and so on. Also AOE was suppose to be the start of another trilogy, yet I think with the worse then expected reception and the growing popularity of shared universes Paramount got wise (hopefully, I mean they still left bay as director). They got the writers room together and are connecting all the movies more coherently now. This is how we now have TF:TLK. Which instead of being not only a direct sequel to AOE, will be more of a story that also connects to the previous movies better then AOE did with just following DOTM. Also we are getting more then just 2 more TF films now. We are getting a saga basically.

 

You actually could totally do Calendar Man - The Long Halloween is a classic Batman storyline where CM is central to the plot. Like a non-canablistic Hannibal Lecter perhaps - the version from Arkham City would be absolutely sublime for the silver screen.

One of the many reasons why there's been such a movement for a reboot. Think about it in terms of how TFTM killed off almost all the early G1 guys only to replace them with completely new characters who never quite filled the same shoes for the fans of Prowl, Ironhide, and the original Ark crew plus the others. The characters most commonly associated with the big names have draw power absolutely no amount of modern marketing can provide - people want to SEE these characters simply because they are around. Soundwave be an emotionless creepy guy who is home to a bunch of smaller guys, Starscream be a laughably poor planner in terms of trying to overthrow Megatron (which is completely justified in how he's still second in command despite being openly disloyal - it keeps Megatron on his toes against whatever inane plan Starscream tries to pull off on him next, which as a result keeps his defenses up against anybody actually playing a long game to sieze leadership for themselves and is smarter/more patient than Stascream), and Shockwave is kind of a mix of the two.

People want to see characters they know do stuff. This is why killing off established characters exactly in the way AoE did it only to replace them with a bunch of new guys three films later nobody is familiar with (or in the case of Hound completely not like the typical characterization) is a bad move. It can be done if the new characters can prove to be just as dynamic as their predecessors (I.E. Animated Prowl from G1 Prowl) but doing it so late in the game via a hard reset in this manner throws away any existing progress - making the task exponentially more difficult to sell new characters to people who are upset over the fact these new guys are the reason the old ones they liked were killed in the first place.

How? Megatron's dead, Sam and Carly actually get serious, Cybertron is fucked, and the films had been going for damn near five years which is well within the average lifespan of a Transformers flagship line before the reboot is needed for generational refreshment and thus appeal to the new generation of pre-teen boys, replacing the grown up kids in highschool or going into college. The good guys won in the end, all AoE does is retroactively diminish this by making the humans more of a threat to the Autobots than the Decepticons from this point on.

I took that more as a comment on their near-eternal rivalry, since Megatron in Prime makes a very similar comment after the first zombie raising ("we've been at this a long time, haven't we Prime?"), but Hasbro's been pushing Prime as being more than merely being defined by Megatron - the official version of The Thirteen has been pushed hard and of course #13 is in fact the dude who gets resurrected as Optimus Prime (so he's basically robo-jesus), the movies have established he's basically a destined hero simply by being the only one who can kill The Fallen because reasons (if the 'brothers' exchange from the first film is taken literally, there's actually not a reason to believe Megatron couldn't have killed Fallen) AND this Knight nonsense that doesn't seem to have any previous mention in any official movie lore, canon or otherwise, prior to AoE.

So it's not so much 'what is Prime without Megatron' but more 'what is Megatron without Prime?' Because right now Prime is looking pretty damn close to demi-god tier while Megatron keeps getting exhumed from his grave because they refuse to drop in somebody actually new like Overlord or Straxus.

He was talking about Sentinel Prime in that speech.

Dead.

Because they can't just make a film where Prime and BB are the only good guy robots, try as they might.

I think their entire driving momentum being their boss trying to monetize harvesting the aliens being lost beause their boss is dead kinda doesn't point to them still being a thing.

The properties of which are completely worthless given how the TFs go from being nigh-invulnerable short of being attacked with extreme heat or cold weapons, to being able to get killed with conventional military caliber bullets. As in they're weak to shit tank armor isn't affected by.

Who are still objectively inferior to the original alien Transformers.

Ever read the lore behind Binaltech Battle Ravage? Literally the same deal except BR's lore humorously states future Ravage is powered by present day Ravage shoved into his cassette player (which actually ends up dead center on his ass, so he's shoved up his own ass as a result).

Litterally the most generic, boring name possible given we know nothing else about them. Seriously, there's two similar races in TF lore; the Quints (who did make the Transformers in one of the G1 creation origins presented in the cartoon) and the Vok (who did some truly crazy shit like fuse two Maximals into one being for shits and giggles).

Because it isn't like Game of Thrones/high fantasy being popular as all hell right now can't possibly have influenced this.

Where? The movie doesn't identify Dinobots at any point in the film.

Seriously, I can't count that - it's a signature term and for the film to not use that one word despite keeping the group mostly intact namewise is M. Night. changing names in TLA because he thought it sounded cooler tier bullshit. Uung(gh).

Because Transformers history apparently stopped being cool enough to support its own completely detached history. I can rail against Prime all day but even with Unicron being wasted and the overhyped bullshit relics, at least that show never fucked with human history to the point of active Transformer manipulation on the level of Kingdom of the Crystal Skull or any given episode of Ancient Aliens. But the movies are basically making the TFs into the fucking illuminati because they're technologically advanced aliens and not because of their unique mimicry abilities.

Bumblebee clone - not even original robot design given Stinger was a red BB last film.

Oh boy, a name!

Seriously, until we know anything about the character, there is no evidence to support this significance goes beyond a nameslap.

Even he couldn't escape the de-alienization - his new head is shit and ruins an otherwise decent robot mode redesign. And I'm sorry but I can't take the 'new' police cruiser mode seriously. It's tragically inferior to the original form in every way in my eyes because it tries too hard to be 'cool' like it was a rejected Fast and Furious prop.

Just an observation, but this also marks the point where the films heavily dive toward Anicent Aliens territory of blaming all of human history's unexplained phenomena on aliens and away from truly detached and original Transformers lore. It's about how humans are important in defining the Transformers, not about how the Transformers are supposed to be their own civilization separate from humanity.

I'll have to complie some information but I feel there is a boatload of observations from the show Westworld about how narratives are constructed that would excellently illustrate how the faux-epic details of the framing plots and setting simply are not enough for me to rectify how neglected the Transformers are in their own films to the point the majority of all opportunites for characterization are missed because the writers have never seen an episode of the original Knight Rider show.

 

Just keep on force-feeding people your opinions, there. How is it shit, exactly? Especially compared to the original head which, need I remind, most people hated the alien aesthetic. His head wasn't that distinct, easily comparable to the likes of Blackout and such who had very similar design philosophies. The new head is fairly distinct, with the multiple goggle-like sets of eyes, which'll be easier for most to follow than a head that is nothing but jagged metal pieces. When I first watched TF1 I didn't even know Barricade had a mouth with teeth.

Aside from being a newer model of mustang, is he really that different? He's now a dark blue instead of black but otherwise what exactly is "trying too hard to be cool?"

 

Apologies, meant to put 'in my opinion' at the end of that. However, the head being more rounded just sits at odds with who Barricade is supposed to be, given what he does in the first film and the general depiction in side material ala toy bios. He's the epitome of bad cop, brutality and pretty much a twisted version of law enforcment. He's not trying to be your friend, he's strictly business and the hold head reflected that with the elongated spike crests and the double-iris eyes. The new design is way too humanoid and round - the original aesthetic difference between movie Bots and Cons which leaked into Prime was that the Bots, being the supposedly more relatable side, were designed to be more humanoid and rounded, whereas the cons were the opposite with sharp edges and spikes. 'New' Barricade comes off as being taken down from being super-intimidating as a bad guy to pretty much about as evil looking as movie Ironhide to me.

Isn't going to stop me from buying the toy because don't get me wrong, I do like the majority of the robot mode, but the head just doesn't fit the character like the old one did in my opinion.

Giant aftermarket spoiler, no Decepticon emblem visible (one of the coolest things I liked in the first film was the subtle integration of the faction icons into existing imagery - Barricade's being one of my favorites), and enough body kit modifications to rival the Mustang GT I made on my old copy of Need for Speed Underground 2 years back. Cop cars do not need aftermarket hood inlets or spoilers large enough to make looking through the rear view mirror difficult - it comes off to me that all the needless street racer fills are an attempt to make Barricade look as cool as those stupid supercars. But it would never, ever pass as a cop car which is a step in the wrong direction given the original did this by default.

And yet the argument of 'this is fiction those kinds of things don't need to apply' which I usually get when presenting these points does not jive with how I also get 'it's unrealistic' when I point out how every attempt is made to rid the alt. modes of visible faction symbols...because of those fucking rent-a-supercars that can't be modified or even dented by accident. It's more of a major problem I've been having with the films as of AoE where making the cars look super exotic or special because that's their stock appearance has taken higher priority over taking conventional 'boring' vehicles and MAKING them interesting - there is a real shortage of creative choiecs like the VW, Onslaught, or the little touches on the original crap Camaro with that fun air freshener. It is a reflection of how hollow these characters are where appearance dictates their character without any personalization - yes, the vehicles are disguises but this doesn't mean unique touches or ornamentation need to be completely abandoned as a result. A vanity license plate, a unique scrape pattern in the paint, or an actual example from the films - Mixmaster's Decepticon-headed MACK dog hood ornament.

They don't do that anymore, which takes away the idea that these are individual robots and not cars shipped straight from a Top Gear episode.

 

Movies aren't usually the place to introduce new characters. Sure Sony could make some all new villain for Spider Man to fight but they are going to stick to villains that have some pop culture appeal. People going hey I remember that character from a cartoon or comic book from when I was a kid gives a studio a known quality over the risk of all new.

Comic books, cartoons, or live action TV shows are a safe place for new characters because if the character doesn't pop well hey it's just one episode. If the character does pop in a cartoon like Harley did then hey we don't kill off characters in the cartoons so super easy to bring back a character we didn't expect people to love so much.

 

It seems like you're misinterpreting a lot of what I am saying. My point wasn't that every single one of these characters or concepts is going to be explored further. My point is that these are all things that I find fascinating or potentially fascinating that already have appeared or will appear in the future.

Not really. First off, Autobots have more enemies than Decepticons in many pieces of fiction.

Second of all, it's not as if AOE is only Autobots vs. humans and that's all there is to it. The main reason Cemetery Wind was as successful as they were is because they had a skilled Cybertronian bounty hunter working with them against the Autobots. AOE is about the combined forces of Lockdown, the Creators, bad humans, and Galvatron's KSI Decepticons threatening the survival of the Autobots and humans.

And I never said it did not refer to that, but it is a funny precursor if you ask me, regardless of whether it was intentional or not.

So a character needs to appear in more than one film to be enjoyable? Dead or not, Lockdown was a highly enjoyable, excellent, and interesting main villain for me and many other fans. Characters don't need to appear in a million franchise films to be enjoyable.

I would have loved to see Lockdown survived, but for a one-time villain (unless he appears in a spin-off, which I'd love) he was really cool.

Who said someone couldn't replace him though? Cemetery Wind is an organization, not an individual. I'm certain there are individuals who survived that shared his ideology.

Again, that's not the purpose of Transformium. Transformium is a programmable metal....that is its strength. Some machines made of Transformium are going to be built tougher than others. Also, as time went on humans got better at fighting Decepticons due to experience and working with their Autobot allies. Finally, there has not been a single Transformer that was killed entirely by regular human bullets. Every Transformer that has died was at the very least severely damaged by Cybertronian or heavy human weaponry regardless of whether smaller human arms were also involved.

Which was exactly the point! The humans in their hubris thought they were making superior robots when they really weren't.

Who says it was their final name? It is simply their relationship to the Transformers. They were intentionally left open-ended and mysterious.

Did Dinobots appear in the film? Then there are Dinobots in the film. And all signs point to them returning.

I hope to see more of them, but at least it's established that they exist, so hopefully the audience can learn more about them in the future.

Do we know that he is simply going to be a Bumblebee clone? Let's watch the movie when it comes out first. By the way, Hot Rod's face design is easily my least favorite design so far revealed from the film, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to give the character a shot.

I think the new design is FAR, FAR superior to the original. It is so much more full of character. It is nowhere near as busy. It has brass knuckles saying "Serve" and "Protect." He has a night stick and a pistol. People bitched and moaned for years about the Decepticon designs being too alien or insectoid, and now that they have more visually expressive designs people still complain.

 

"In my opinion" doesn't make you sound any less vitriolic, though. I mean, I got that it was your opinion, it's the way you're aggressively pushing it. The fact that you don't just offer your perspective, you shut down the opposition.

There's nothing wrong with aesthetic differences between the factions, but I've never bought into the idea that all Autobots must look friendly, and all Decepticons must look intimidating. After all, good and evil are chocies, not anatomical differences. Look at Beast Wars. It had a bit of that, yet Primal's first two bodies could easily pass for bad guys, with the dark colours and red eyes of his season 1 body, and the uber ripped, brutish physique and sharp teeth of his TM body. On the flip side, Megatron's season 1 body has nothing especially aggressive or evil looking about it aside from maybe colours. If he was red, he'd easily pass for a heroic character.

Hell, look at the second most identifiable Decepticon ever, G1 Starscream, who's got downright friendly colours. In fact, his colours are eerily similar to the RX-78-02. Aside from the red eyes, there's nothing evil or intimidating about his design whatsoever. Optimus looks like more of a villain than him, with his mouthless head, and helmet covered in points.

Honestly I still dislike the fact that the movies (and virtually everything these days) still give all Autobots blue eyes, and all Decepticons red eyes.

Of all those things, only the spoiler seems weird, just because as you said cop cars wouldn't logically have spoilers that block any rear view. But it's not a "giant" one, nor are the body mods that gratuitous. I couldn't even remember them until you pointed them out. You make it sound like KITT's attack mode from the 2008 Knight Rider.

 

So basically it's all disneys fault we are all confused as heck!!....with their marvel and Star Wars shizzle all undergoing inflation!

 

I think would be the last TF movie directed by Bay.