Unpopular transformers opinions

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by Smokeyoreo18, Dec 30, 2019.

  1. Rewind Eject

    Rewind Eject Still no war in Ba Sing Se

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    Really want to know what people were thinking when they decided the Decepticons were rebelling against a corrupt government and Optimus was enforcing that corrupt government.

    Like I'm sure there's a bit more nuance to it, but all I can imagine is "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings - now shut up and get back in the mine!".
     
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  2. CyberstormSM

    CyberstormSM Turbo-Revvin' Young Punk

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    Well, I think that was kind of the point. Orion was a cop, but he wasn't aware of how corrupt the Senate was. It's only ever suggested that he was handling street-level crime, not anything more than that. Really, it's because of his encounter with Megatron that he realizes the truth about the Senate, which leads to him down a pretty interesting course. From "Chaos Theory" to "Shadowplay" to "Elegant Chaos," Roberts is essentially showing us how Orion is becoming more and more of a deep thinker after his encounter with Megatron. He goes from cop to reformist to outlaw over the course of those three stories, largely because of his increasing awareness of the flaws of pre-war Cybertron.

    Then the Autocracy trilogy comes along and kinda poos on that, but I think the story that Roberts was trying to tell with Supercop Orion was pretty interesting.
     
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  3. Bee427

    Bee427 Still here and queer

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    I could kind of see Coptimus working in a different story, but IDW OP really was just a tool for the Senate, despite his attempts to do the right thing. And I think it would feel wrong to try that today. I vastly prefer archivist or dockworker Optimus as a representative of the working class that's being oppressed by either a corrupt government or the Decepticons. Someone who would protect people who couldn't protect themselves. It would fit more nicely with the "strong enough to be gentle" theme for Optimus' character.
     
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  4. Rewind Eject

    Rewind Eject Still no war in Ba Sing Se

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    I get it but I don't think it fits Optimus. Deep social thinking is definitely not the part of Optimus that I think he should need an encounter with Megatron to gain. Call it simple, but if people are oppressed on Cybertron, Optimus should always be on their side. He's Transformer's Captain America and seeing him on the side of the Authoritarian status quo hurts the same as if Captain America did so.

    Also, perhaps there is more to it, but in the first part of "Elegant Chaos" he was fighting Sentinel Prime. But I know that Sentinel was succeeded by Zeta Prime who Optimus also worked for. How did he go cop, reformist, outlaw, and back to cop?
     
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  5. Nova Maximus

    Nova Maximus Well-Known Member

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    Prime.PNG

    Orion was a cop mostly because of his alt-mode that let him become one, and even then he was pretty oblivious to how many of Cybertron's populace living conditions were until he had an encounter with the Senate's enforcers.

    Main reasons he stayed as a cop was a) reform instead of uprising, and b) After Sentinel's death Orion helped get Zeta into power, who he believed would bring change (and did somewhat) and the Decepticons had started using terrorist tactics like bombings. It wasn't until Zeta started revealing his true colours that Orion took action.
    Orion.PNG
    Zeta.PNG
     
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  6. CyberstormSM

    CyberstormSM Turbo-Revvin' Young Punk

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    @Nova Maximus basically said what I was going to say.
     
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  7. sikkusushotto

    sikkusushotto Well-Known Member

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    Never thought about this before but now I can't unsee this. A Cayman or Boxster (less backpack kibble?) would be the perfect car for a smaller bot like Bumblebee.

    To fit in with the finding-an-old-beater story, I'd go for an EG Civic.
     
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  8. Megastar

    Megastar Well-Known Member

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    I would like to see the Autobots and Decepticons treat each other as if they were semi-different ethnicities or at least nationalities and that the war has blurred between being a civil war to a race war.
     
  9. Zentropy

    Zentropy Toys > Fiction

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    I think tribalism is the last thing we need on our fictional entertainment. I’ve tolerated my limit of such bullshit in real life.
     
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  10. Applejacktimus

    Applejacktimus Arboreal Frippery

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    Transformers may be a pretty imaginative, almost fantastical setting with a bit of an escapist feel by consequence, but personally I'm not interested in escapism in the slightest, especially if it brings down what could have been an even better story. Bring on the emotionally, morally, and spiritually testing and introspective stories that shake us to our core, I say.

    That said, Autobots and Decepticons being separate races at war because of race just... no...
     
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  11. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    G1 cartoon had them as different production lines, Not too different when you think about it
     
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  12. Bee427

    Bee427 Still here and queer

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    I can't fully explain why the idea of the Autobots and Decepticons being separate races feels so iffy to me, but I think it mainly comes down to overly simplifying the causes of the conflict between them. They clash because they have different beliefs, not because they were built differently. There can be some physical differences, like Decepticons being more inclined to flight-capable/military alt modes and Autobots going more for civilian vehicles, but I really don't like the idea of them being different races from the start. Cultural differences within the same species, yes. Flat-out race war, no.
     
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  13. Rojixus

    Rojixus I AM NOT YOUR ENEMY!

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    Same. There is no such thing as "too close to home" or "too political" in my book. I'm very much willing to be made uncomfortable for the sake of a good story.
     
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  14. Cyberbot8460

    Cyberbot8460 INSTANCE ABREACTION

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    I like to say that the Decepticon faction was formed as a military rebellion against the existing government, with Megatron, a well-established general forming it, explaining the more militaristic alt-modes of the Decepticons.
     
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  15. Novaburnhilde

    Novaburnhilde シン・ブリュンヒルド

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    I find it a little ironic that you simultaneously wish for Transformers to bring on the emotionally, morally and spiritually testing and introspective stories yet you also claim "But this... they shouldn't do this." The entire point of making a story that challenges the viewer is to not have limits on what can and can't be told, that means you may experience something that will make you uncomfortable, and that's okay!

    Personally as long as it's well written I wouldn't care either way, even though I don't really consider them separate 'races', just different hardware. This kind of discussion and kneejerk reaction to a concept sort of present in the cartoon and comics reminds me a lot of how the discussions revolving around Tolkien fiction has been ruined by pseudo-intellectuals and race hustlers who think it's appropriate to draw parallels between a race such as the Orcs and real life ethnicities with nothing in common while at the same time calling other people racist.
     
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  16. Ravage Stanixa

    Ravage Stanixa Vox Destron

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    That ship already sailed, didn't it? I'm pretty sure TFA was enough of a race war. I'm not as uncomfortable with the scenario as some of us are, mostly because I think Astolat did beautiful things with it in her fiction which I can't link to here because the Megatron/Optimus relationship is not platonic. But it's already been done.

    (Then again, Astolat made the warmechs and civilian frames not genders, but biological sexes, in at least one of those stories, so idk.)
     
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  17. Zentropy

    Zentropy Toys > Fiction

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    I agree, bring on the depth. If WFC has proven anything, it’s that even transforming warring robots aren’t sufficient to rescue tepid, shallow storytelling. But I don’t want Transformers to utilize racism even if the goal is to demonstrate its offensiveness.
     
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  18. Novaburnhilde

    Novaburnhilde シン・ブリュンヒルド

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    I don't think Transformers is the kind of story that should explore something so foreign to them, besides most people alive today know that 'racism bad' so they don't need a TV show to tell them that it's bad.

    I'm much more interested in TF tackling concepts like sentience, free-will, and other machine / A.I. based concepts rather than beating a long dead horse.
     
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  19. Suboptimal Optimus

    Suboptimal Optimus There Is Such A Thing As Truth

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    I think Hasbro definitely moved away from the 'Autobots and Decepticons are different races' due to the oh so obvious issues it would generate. That said we still see artifacts of this today, with Decepticons-as-caste existing as a concept or the two subraces having different abilities. Generally speaking, legacy Decepticons lean toward military hardware even to this day, being tanks and jets primarily and Autobots tend toward being civilian vehicles. There's been a lot more blurring these days thanks to characters who exist beyond this paradigm, even going as far back as G1 itself (Stunticon and Aerialbots come to mind, as do Battlechargers and the likes of Warpath or Dogfight). It may not be addressed in the lore much today but this idea of miltary hardware versus civilian hardware remain hardwired in the legacy designs.

    That said I don't think this need to be a clear cut. The rules of human biology do not apply to a mechanical species: if an incarnation of Transformers says that Decepticons are physically different from Autobots then its perfectly justifiable. Being warriors and conquerors, it make sense the Decepticons have the means to be bigger and rebuild themselves with advantages such as flight (including space flight for the like of Astrotrain), robot mode flight and built in weapons in either or both modes. Recent Transformers incarnations have leaned more and more toward making them like living beings who just happen to be made of metal but it make sense for Decepticons to rebuild themselves as bigger, stronger or even reprogram themselves to be innately more aggressive and ambitious. Essentially, under this model you can reconcile the old G1 lore and modern takes. Its basically a form of trans-cybertronianism. Bigger, tougher, stronger, nastier and bristling with weapons. This also ties well with the Seekers all being recolors as no doubt the Seeker body type would be well suited to their cause and is likely one of their best designs.

    Personally I'd like to see the angle that, yes, the Decepticons are a 'separate race' but one they are becoming by choice. By embracing their nature as living war machines. In fact, early TFA concepts had the Decepticons as looking scarier, more monstrous and all patchwork. If Decepticons were to exist away from Cybertron for extended period of time and not be waging the Great War then yes, over time, I do think it would be appropriate to call them a different 'species' of Cybertronian. But, again, we have to understand that human logic and analogy need not apply here. Is a Junkion a 'proper' Transformers, for example? Depend on continuity. What about universe where Cybertronian sub species already exist, like TF Prime's Predacons? They are simultaneously a different race/species, so to speak and yet Predaking display the same baseline abilities of other Cybertronians once he learn to talk and transform. But would, say, his T-Cog be compatible? Or any other 'organ'? In my opinion Transformers 'biology' is so convoluted and variable between universes that its very difficult to even say what is and isn't the same species anyway. What about once-human Transformers, like Ginrai, who used to be humans-animating-a-robot-suit by the animating force got split and became its own fully self aware robot? What about TF Prime's Nemesis Prime or Silas+Breakdown hybrid organism? Or the fully organic but spark-animated Savage/Noble?

    I'm not even sure we can debate if Decepticons can function as distinct sub species because we might end up unable to even agree to what defined the Cybertronian species.
     
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  20. Ravage Stanixa

    Ravage Stanixa Vox Destron

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    ...I'm just going to say that prior to the Captain America movies and the Civil War comics, I hated Captain America because there were a lot of portrayals of him when I was growing up in the 70s and 80s (especially the Reagan years, ugh) that were really quite grossly authoritarian.
     
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