Travis Knight Comments On Why Bumblebee Left Charlie

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Music, Apr 4, 2019.

  1. TFXProtector

    TFXProtector Well-Known Member

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    So, let me get this straight... The content you hated is fine stretched out for nearly 2.5 hours, THREE times over but you can't handle it for 90+ minutes?

    I mean, really stop and think about what you're saying here.

    Bumblebee cried windshield washer fluid, people found it charming and cute. It looked stupid.

    If you can't handle it for 100-ish minutes, but you can handle it for SEVEN AND A HALF HOURS over three overlong and bloated movies and the only difference is the reproductive organs of the human protagonist, then yes, it's sexism on your part.

    Your argument makes zero sense, and is what people have cried about and clamored for change over for a DECADE. You didn't bat an eye. They do it in a film where it actually makes sense and is handled with care and sensibility and you're up in arms crying foul?

    Good grief. One day, you'll look back on this and feel serious pangs of regret. We always look back and wish we could've done better, been better. Please have your epiphany sooner, rather than later, for the sake of the rest of us.

    Women have problems, too. Women are relatable, too. Women are soldiers who've died for a greater cause and YOUR freedom, too. They have boobies and an innie instead of an outie. Ooh! Cooties!

    Please, stop and think.

    What are you talking about?! The reason the dang first movie dragged on is because we had to watch Sam tell his mother off about Mojo's "bling", dealing with Uncle Bobby B ripping him off, hanging out with a friend who deserves better and also getting arrested by the police and getting caught with his dog's meds. I just explained ALL of that in a few lines and people will get the gist, it took the filmmakers FIFTY EIGHT MINUTES of a two and a half hour film to do the same thing and they still bogged it down with even more garbage like a video game playing "hacker" who didn't actually hack anything (he accessed a SD Card, hardly a hack) as well as the filmmakers enjoying a circle jerk of the military and getting their rocks off during excessive and needless explosions that ran over budget just a few gas cans too many.

    Sam didn't stand up to his bullies, he mocked them and made fun of them until Mikaela stepped in and turned them away. That wasn't standing up to them, that was letting your mouth write a check your body can't cash and fortunately someone else stopped him before he could finish putting his stupid name on it.

    You don't have to like Charlie or her family, but that's not your issue... SHE is not Sam. She's a she, not a he, and you don't like it. That's the very definition of sexism and it's not going to get better for you until you admit you have a problem.

    I guarantee if Charlie had actually been Charles and went through exactly the same thing as the current Bumblebee film, you'd have loved it. Or at least liked it more. And you say Bumblebee is more or less stupid and wasted here... Like he wasn't in the other films?

    He urinated on Simmons. He cried windshield washer fluid. He let Sam and Mikaela make out on his hood while the other Autobots watched. He was supposed to be protecting Sam and failed as Sam was still killed and went to robot Heaven. (Though, I'll meet you halfway on this last one, it was written that way to further the story and get it to conclusion. Still, Bumblebee sucked at his job.) He then became a living MacGuffin in TLK.

    Him being goofy because he lost his memory is the thing that offends you most about him thus far? Are you serious? C'mon. That's a legit crazy amount of reaching to justify a terrible viewpoint to bolster your sexist views. This all started with hating on a female protagonist and ends with you making digs at a character who's been the writers whipping boy since day one.

    Oh, and in case you're forgetting (and you clearly are) this is a last minute reboot, but a reboot nonetheless and the film is aimed at families with kids, they needed him to be relatable and cute to get families on the hook. Now that they're there, he can be all the awesome you need to him to be. Though, I assure you, your definition and mine aren't in the same zip code.. .
     
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  2. Hanzkaz

    Hanzkaz Well-Known Member

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    I remember trying to watch a Bayverse movie with my younger kids back in the day, holy ...! I had my finger constantly on the remote's fast-forward button (Okay, that was for my own benefit, too).

    I'm looking at Bumblebee as a sort of introductory movie. (Kind of like the Knightverse's Iron Man). As the story continues you can go into epic territory. But you need people to care. We need the kids, the up and coming potential Transformers fans to care.

    Also, let's not put families off with Bayverse style toilet humour. They have plenty of other options if that's the case.


    Incidentally, I don't think that CobraKai was deliberately trying to be sexist. I think he just prefers the 'cool action scenes, badass robots, etc' over the 'talky bits, 'domesticated' Bumblebee' and regular 'boring' humans (imo). Bumblebee takes time (in a single movie) to introduce and develop Charlie as a character and her relationship with her new friend. Also Bumblebee needs Charlie. She influences her own movie a lot more than Sam ever did to his three movies.

    With Bayverse, hardly anyone seems to care (too much) if a particular character wasn't there (though in Sam's case you do notice that there's less screaming).

    (By the way, I don't share CobraKai's opinion. Bumblebee is the kind of movie I've wanted all along. But I do get where he's coming from, even if I don't agree with it. He sort of reminds me of me, if they'd made the movie the way he seems to prefer it.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
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  3. Nathanoraptor

    Nathanoraptor Well-Known Member

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    A) When was this and b) how old were your children? Because I was ten when the first Transformers movie came out; I went to see it, as did everybody in my class. In the Year 5/6 class of '07-'08 class of Great Crosby Catholic Primary School, if you hadn't seen Transformers, you were a nobody.

    There was a girl in my class whose uncle ran the local ODEON, so she got a lot of attention (e.g. Valentine's cards) from the boys in the class, in hope she'd get us free movie tickets. She did, BTW; she had glasses and a stammer (which cropped up when she was scared or excited) so most of her peer interactions were not positive.

    In fact, on my last day of primary school, our teacher brought in Transformers for us to watch, because we'd all requested it and she knew all our parents had taken us to see it.

    The kids you should be aiming this at are the 9-12 year-old kids who main-line Transformers toys are made for. Look at the toy reviews on Amazon and they're full of stories about parents who brought younger kids main-line Transformers toys and were shocked when the kid broke them on the first go.

    And some people do prefer "cool action scenes and badass robots"; that doesn't mean we should ostracise them. There was nothing misogynistic about what he said; Sam wasn't really a developed character because we weren't seeing the movie for him, we were seeing it for the cool robots.

    However, I don't share his opinion; when I was ten, I probably would have hated Bumblebee, because I was sick of the talky scenes in the first Transformers and wanted to see more thigns going boom and robots punching each other.

    Conversely, when I watched TLK, I was checking my watch during the "cool" action scenes, because those don't excite me any more. It's because steady exposure to the MCU from the age of 11 onwards, has taught me that it's not just the cool action scenes that make a film enjoyable.

    If you look at, say, Black Panther, all the best bits are not when T'Challa is kicking ass, it's when the film is expressing its musings on power, the cycle of revenge and identity. The action scenes are cool, yes, but they are secondary to the real meat of the film; the plot and character development.

    That's what I hope the TF movies learn going forward; don't make it all about the action. You can tell deeper stories that will enthral and amaze audiences; and, when they leave the cinema, they will be having deeper conversations about the film.
     
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  4. Hanzkaz

    Hanzkaz Well-Known Member

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    You're older than my eldest, then. There was me trying to show kids a cool live-action Transformers movie, and there's a Transformer pissing over a guy, and someone who's losing his pants during a struggle with a Decepticon. Okay, that was probably meant to be funny, but it just got worse with each succeeding movie.


    I wasn't ostracising anyone. I was simply referring to a difference in preference. Some people like one thing, others, something else. Incidentally, I like them too, but I prefer the MCU approach, as apparently you do.


    Yeah, the movie toys were something else, I had a friend who'd bring me bags of plastic pieces so that I could put them all back together.

    And it's too bad that the 50-60+ year olds running Paramount struggle to understand that.


    And this.
     
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  5. Nathanoraptor

    Nathanoraptor Well-Known Member

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    I would say that was the fault of the studio, rather than Bay, Spielberg or anyone involved in the films creatively. ROTF's script was extensively doctored by execs who wanted more comedy; the novelization and comic adaptations (based on early drafts of the script) hew closer what Bay and the writers wanted.

    I was agreeing with you; you said "I don't share this guy's opinions, but I can see why he has them." I was referring to the people who were automatically calling him a raving misogynist when there was nothing in his statement that implied that the protagonist's gender was, in any way, relevant to his dislike of the film.

    It's not just the movie toys; I'd say any main-line Transformers toy is rather difficult to transform for a younger kid. They're made for 8+ for a reason.

    As we learnt from Michael Eisner's tenure at Disney, studio bigwigs have no understanding of creativity; all they care about is what's profitable. There's a reason why Bob Iger is the most hands-off CEO Disney's ever had; and the studio's gone from strength to strength since then.
     
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  6. Hanzkaz

    Hanzkaz Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty sure that when the execs asked for more humour, Bay decided to go for his particular preferred brand of it. It's even been referred to as 'Bay's trademark humour'.

    I mean, I can deal with stuff like that in Bad Boys II, etc, but I don't want that anywhere near Transformers.

    Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought I was being misunderstood.
     
  7. TFXProtector

    TFXProtector Well-Known Member

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    And that's a really sad state of affairs, isn't it? Apparently, Hollywood got the wrong memo and thinks "Oh, to make this movie, based on a kids toyline, we have to include a bunch of sexual references with a LOT of profanity and let's not forget the violence. Let's Evil Dead this thing. Oh, you're going to make the hero pull dude's head apart with hooks? YAAAS!"

    Kids don't need to see and hear that garbage. I don't care if it's rated PG-13, I don't care if "Parental Guidance STRONGLY suggested" is slapped on there. If they're kids, if they like robots, if they like robots beating each other up, if they think it's going to be like the cartoons only with real people... They're going to want to see it. It was incredibly devious of them to make the films in the manner they did. It's disgusting and despicable how twisted they made it.

    Optimus killed when necessary, before, but in the movies, he was straight up a murderer. Even Peter Cullen was uncomfortable with the dialogue.

    EXACTLY. And guess what? You can hook the adults, too, by appealing to their child at heart. It worked, both critics AND audiences gave it incredibly high ratings for this franchise.

    5 other options, in fact. Plus any of his other bodies of work. Heck, there's Deadpool if they need *that* fix. I've never thought Transformers needed people making out on Bumblebee's hood. One, I'd be worried about denting my awesome car and two, it's weird enough to be "stalked" by your computer (location, webcam, and microphone) and your phone (laundry list, too long to mention) but to have your car eying you up as you clean someone's tonsils? Uh, no. The line should've been drawn long ago, but that's the one that makes you go "NOPE! I'M OUT!"

    There are other ways to "adultify" a property without it being disgusting or inappropriate. Honestly, that says a lot more about adults and society as a whole...

    I reread my posts with him and I realize how incredibly harsh and judgmental they are and how I'd be just as PO'd if I were in his shoes, so I have sincere regret for making my point in the manner I did with the amount of judgment (I.E. ANY) heaped on it. I don't have the right to say he's sexist, for that, I'm sorry. I still disagree and take issue with his overall argument, though. It doesn't compute, at all.

    If he had said it was boring, or too small in scope, etc I'd have been fine. It's when he compares her to Sam and three movies that did the same thing that Bumblebee did in one, it just comes across as utterly bonkers and reaching. I'm the one who assumed it was about her being female, that's on me. Bumblebee, as a movie, is derivative, yes, but to complain it does the same thing the other ones do and find it problematic HERE, when it was embraced and loved in the others just makes no sense to me. That part of his posts, I'll continually take issue with and combat every chance I get because that cannot stand.

    It's one thing to have preferences, we all have them, it's another to make an inane argument out of it.
     
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  8. Hanzkaz

    Hanzkaz Well-Known Member

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    Okay, there is that, but what really I meant was that if parents think the stuff you just described is in a particular Transformers movie, many of them are going to go for other, more child-friendly, options. I know I did.


    I believe that CobraKai feels that there were certain elements in Bumblebee that he didn't like (personal tastes tend to vary) which were less 'concentrated', so to speak, in Sam's movies - perhaps, and I may be reaching here, because they were 'diluted' by much greater doses of Bayhem.:) 
     
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  9. BigRed

    BigRed Well-Known Member

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    No, it didn't. The Bay movies had much longer stretch of times with bad human melodrama and bad """"""""humor"""""""" than anything in the Bee movie, by your own metric they're worse than the Bee film. At best you can say the Bee movie has less action, and it does, but the robot screentime and characterization is miles ahead of what Bay did. Bumblebee is actualy a character in this instead of a CGI robot fighter that exists to fight and spew bad one liners.
     
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  10. Nathanoraptor

    Nathanoraptor Well-Known Member

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    What did you end up showing them, just to ask?

    I tried to watch ROTF recently (because I have Sky OnDemand and you have to pay for all the good stuff), but found myself losing interest a third of the way in (after Megatron was revived); I realised that there was nothing out of the next hour and 45 minutes that I couldn't get from watching scenes on YouTube.

    Part of that fact was the vulgar humour. I rolled my eyes when the dogs were humping. I cringed when I saw that the blenderbot's cannon looked like a penis. Finally, I faceplamed when Sam's mother got high on pot brownies and tackled a Frisbee player. It was then that I realised that, after the resurrection of Megatron, there wasn't really anything to interest me, aside from a few big action scenes that I could just look up on YouTube.

    It was then I remembered that my mother had recorded Fantastic Beasts and Where To Find Them, so I put that on instead; I spent 2 hours watching a film that was clever and exciting and funny, with a great story and genuinely likeable characters, rather than watching John Tuturro's arse in a speedo, a man get tased in the nuts and a little robot with a Brooklyn accent humping a woman's leg.

    A wasted afternoon averted.
     
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  11. Hanzkaz

    Hanzkaz Well-Known Member

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    Anything that didn't have the stuff you described below: Disney/Star Wars/MCU, Pixar, old Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings (when they were older - actually when first I heard they were making a live action TF movie, I hoped for a Transformers equivalent of Lord of the Rings. You can imagine my feelings towards the Bayverse and the people in charge:mad: )


    Good old Youtube. That's the best way to watch Bayverse movies . Much quicker than using the fast-forward button on the remote.
     
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  12. TFXProtector

    TFXProtector Well-Known Member

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    But the problem is they weren't diluted, at all. The Bayhem was so intense and so excessive (to the point it makes up at least quarter to a third OR MORE of a 2.5-hour film) because it's unnecessary and Bay LIVES for that. When the melodrama went on for far too long, it became boring and drifted from the point of the film. When the Bayhem kicked in, it was overblown to the point you're like "Oh, c'mon. How many times are they going to shoot this guy?" *looks at watch* "Wait. This film is 150 minutes long and we're only at 90?! OH, FOR THE LOVE OF..." They're always imbalanced, it's always overblown. It's not just that Bumblebee is a rehash and derivative, it's not just that the scope is smaller and there's not much in the way of Bayhem, it's that the film is smaller, sensible and balanced and after a decade, fans can't handle it. Bayhem is a line of coke to them, at this point. That's really sad.

    On another note, I do find it odd that you neglected to quote this piece of my post: "There are other ways to "adultify" a property without it being disgusting or inappropriate. Honestly, that says a lot more about adults and society as a whole..." which Bumblebee did and it still remained family friendly, for the most part, and certainly far more than the previous films did.

    Earlier you were saying you were trying to avoid being misread (or something along those lines, I'm paraphrasing here) but it does seem like you're trying to argue, here, even when people DO agree with you or make a comment in line with yours. I was merely mentioning one of the scenes that would make a parent seek another option (which we both agree is necessary to do with these films) and you come back with "Okay, there is that, but..." and there's nothing to infer from that other than "Yeah, but I'm in a mood, I'm ready to throw down!" when a post more akin to "Yeah! That's actually a pretty good example of what I'm talking about." Parents not only THINK something like that is in the TF movies, they KNOW it is because of reviews from both professionals and the audience.

    Regardless of the scene or the discussion leading up to the reference of that point, you and I are in complete agreement that families will seek alternate entertainment and Bumblebee is just that. The previous films aren't even remotely family friendly. AngelVid or whatever it's called would have a field day trying to modify it to be family-friendly material. I think all of the films would run roughly 20 minutes...

    I have to say, this isn't the first time I've had to make a post like this, in the past month. It's weird, I'm noticing it more and more online that people still argue even when they're being agreed with or the other party is being contrite or both. I'll never understand the need to start, or continue to, fight when the other party is in agreement. Perhaps I'm misreading, perhaps you misunderstood my intention, either way, the internet for all of its connecting people to others has also found a way to drive a wedge between them as well.

    Okay, now I know his post was inane if you and I are in agreement. And I don't say that to antagonize, you and I both admittedly are at odds more often than not in a lot of cases, but here we completely agree. We're both right, btw, his argument is completely flawed and it's a real head-scratcher.

    I'd rather condense the human drama and teenage angst in one film, along with characterization, rather than a string of overblown and really long/boring movies with no characterization. I mean, to each, their own... But I, for one, cannot understand why anyone would want all of what makes them miserable in Bumblebee stretched out over three really friggin' long films that keep you looking at your watch and thinking "I'm being punished for something, I know it. Tell me what I did wrong, I promise I'm sorry."

    It's fine to stretch out a character's arc over a trilogy, let's say if there's a really long story to tell and there's a beginning, middle, and end. Take Star Wars, for instance. (Before the current trilogy.) Luke was whiny and impetuous, much akin to Sam, and he had his moments throughout the first two films where you're like "THIS kid? REALLY?!" but by the end, he really had become the master and he really did redeem his father and saved the republic from basically the devil himself. It was a whiny kid who became a respectable man who made sacrifices for the greater good. Sam never, ever had that. He killed a guy with a metal tube (and a generator) and plugged a MacGuffin into both Prime's chest and Megatron's. That's it. He's a filler character who annoys, rather than the tether the audience needed. Charlie was definitely the grounding tether the audience required. She was snarky but kind and you could feel for her. Heck, even Cade was more relatable than a whiny brat who screams all the time and is afraid of everything including being sane and staying out of harm's way.

    (I post all of this in the hopes he rereads it, or others will, and have a moment of clarity. Not to argue.)
     
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  13. Hanzkaz

    Hanzkaz Well-Known Member

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    You're preaching to the converted :D . And the 'diluted' comment may have been a bit of an understatement. I have a habit of doing that.:) 

    Oh, I did agree with that part. I just didn't have anything to add to it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
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  14. transf0

    transf0 “Well Connected” The GOAT

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  15. Nathanoraptor

    Nathanoraptor Well-Known Member

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    I was ten when the first Transformers movie came out; I went to see it, as did everybody in my class. In the Year 5/6 class of '07-'08 class of Great Crosby Catholic Primary School, if you hadn't seen Transformers, trust me, you were a nobody. It was all everybody was talking about.

    In fact, on my last day of primary school, our teacher brought in Transformers for us to watch, because we'd all requested it and she knew all our parents had taken us to see it. Nobody raised an eyebrow.

    The Bayverse films are alright for 10-12 year old kids; who are the sort of people who main-line Transformers toys are aimed at. Amazon toy reviews are filled with horror stories about parents who brought younger kids main-line toys and acted surprised when they broke them.

    Of course, my uncle let me watch The Big Lebowski when I was four, so maybe I'm not the best judge as to what is or isn't appropriate...
     
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  16. CobraKai

    CobraKai Well-Known Member

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    I’m gonna say it. Charlie is in NOT BETTER WRITTEN. She is a 100% generic, cookie cutter, by the books, angst ridden teen, whose life problems has no bearing on the story of the transformers. Getting over her dad, her fear of diving, her acceptance of her new dad and family, driving up the coastline with her friend, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING TRANSFORMERS!! She was poorly integrated into the transformers mythos. It’s like they took a made for TV coming of age movie and pigeonholed transformers into it.
    Sam, on the other hand, had his life interwoven into the Transformers story. He went from getting a car so he can get the girl, which realistically, whether we want to admit it or not, all teenage boys thought about at some point, to realizing there’s something much much bigger than him. Bumblebee made sure he was chosen as the car to buy. When he realized that his fate and the Autobots fate are intertwined, getting the girl didn’t matter. The bullies didn’t matter. All that mattered was finding the Allspark cuz he knew what would happen if the Decepticons got it. And he was willing to die to make sure that didn’t happen. That’s damn good writing.
    Charlie finds Optimus’ message, then cries about her dad. Yeah. So much better.
    Let’s face it. The only reason people think Charlie is better is cuz of the anti-Bay sentiment.
     
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  17. BigRed

    BigRed Well-Known Member

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    Are you pretending the entire last act of the movie doesn't feature Charlie running to find out what happened to Bee after the military got him and disobeying Bee's orders of "stay behind" to make sure the Decepticon's SOS didn't reach the rest of their army and doomed both human and Autobot cause?

    Of course you are, because you have to be delusional enough to shit on reality itself to try and defend a movie made by a human being for other human beings instead of the alien boring explodey bullcrap Bay has been doing for 10 years.
     
  18. CobraKai

    CobraKai Well-Known Member

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    Right which proves 2/3 of the movie is irrelevant.
     
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  19. Jalen Frisby

    Jalen Frisby BumblebeeLover

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    No it proves you wrong, You have no idea what your talking about.
     
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  20. hthrun

    hthrun Show accuracy's overrated

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    To me, Bumblebee felt like a character until he lost his memory. Then he felt more like a pet. I liked his character better in the other movies.
     
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