TRANSFORMERS: RISE OF THE BEASTS

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by xd Accrocate, Jun 22, 2021.

  1. BigRed

    BigRed Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but your post is filled with "details that are part of the Transformers DNA" that had not been part of the DNA in a widespread mainstream form back in 2007 outside of anything except the original G1 brand. Arguably not even now, since out of all modern cartoons, only Cyberverse bothered repeating that lore to such accuracy in relation to the old cartoon. Absolutely weak to say "popular excuses" as if those things needed to be excused too, since Transformers has clearly been a healthy franchise for long and long years while making use of that methodology, so clearly it worked and clearly no child ever walked out of the franchise because "They gave the name Perceptor to a character who isn't a scientist or a microscope" or because the robots crashed on Earth in meteor mode instead of inside of a giant starship. And that is not getting into the assumption that characters most recognizable forms would be the G1 versions when we have various G1 characters that have been outclassed in the public's mindshare by newer versions such as Bumblebee himself.

    You are free to say that your "ultimate transformers movie" is one that echoes your childhood dreams, but everything else is just woefully exaggerated to untrue. It is also weird to talk like the films have been somehow not "setting the basics" when first movie was a basic "Autobots and Decepticons fight on Earth for a powerful object from their alien world" story that various cartoons had already done by this point.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
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  2. Novaburnhilde

    Novaburnhilde シン・ブリュンヒルド

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    Were you introduced to Transformers through the Bay movies? Just curious.
     
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  3. Minibots

    Minibots Well-Known Member

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    You’re absolutely right.
     
  4. Novaburnhilde

    Novaburnhilde シン・ブリュンヒルド

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    Yeah for reals, it's not like a definitive film adaption of stuff like Iron Man or Batman exists- oh wait.

    I'm mostly being cheeky but these empty arguments being repeated ad nauseum is getting me to the point where I just can't be fucked to respond to it when it comes up. Maybe 'definitive' was a poor choice was words, but to pretend like there aren't foundations / staples of this franchise simply says more about your understanding of said thing than it does about the thing itself.

    You can't please everyone for sure, but you don't have to in order to make a truly amazing Transformers film, which I believe is ultimately what these folks are asking for.

    Be honest @waniel239, the issue you take with the word 'definitive' is it subtly implies the one
    you like most isn't the 'definitive' one, right? This isn't a put-down or judgement I'm simply trying to cut through all the flowery language and get down to brass tacks. Are we really gonna start pretending now that every single entry of Transformers has the same amount of value because some people may be nostalgic for it, or like it more than the others?

    I don't even know why I bother with this tired topic still, because I know what the response I'm gonna inevitably get will look like.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
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  5. TheSoundwave

    TheSoundwave Well-Known Member

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    I get where you're coming from, but I personally think the whole thing says more about fan assumptions than the film itself. I agree with you that fans associate a Porsche with a blue stripe with Jazz. I did too, when I first saw this car. I feel like this is the sort of thing fans (myself included) need to be wary of, and tell our brains to dial it back. It's fine to make theories and draw comparisons (the human brain is wired to do that, after all), but it becomes a problem when people can't enjoy something new because they're so fixated on one car looking a bit like another.

    Fans tend to view new things through a relatively narrow lens of "stuff I know and/or remember", and then filter that by "stuff I like". To me this whole Mirage thing feels like...when the trailer for Force Awakens came out, and people thought Boba Fett owned Maz Kanata's cantina in Force Awakens because the Mandalorian flag was outside. Because a lot of fans' only knowledge of the Mandalorian flag was limited to Boba Fett's shoulder. And they ignored all the other flags outside the cantina, because they wanted it to be Boba so bad. What's funny is that if the trailer came out now, people would be saying it's Din Djarin's cantina.

    This Mirage car honestly only bears a mild resemblance to Jazz. Jazz was never a silver 911. Jazz had all sorts of racing markings. And there were other Porsches in G1. It's funny how no one's drawing Nightbeat comparisons, even though this would be an equally serviceable altmode for him. I do think it looks more like Jazz than Mirage, but in the same way that Spiderman looks more like Superman than Batman. He's red and blue, but he doesn't really look like either.

    At the end of the day neither Mirage or Jazz were defined by their specific automobile manufactures. Paramount gave us a brief description of this character's personality, and he sounds way more like Mirage than Jazz. That's why this isn't Jazz. Because this role wasn't written for Jazz. If they just changed this to Jazz, that would be way more of a nameslap, because we'd end up with an anti-authority Jazz who questions Optimus Prime, and (from what we've heard) looks like Mirage in robot mode. Aren't things like personality and robot design more important that automobile manufacturer?

    It's very likely that the choice of altmode is context-specific. Like, maybe Mirage is posing as a car that belongs to a rich person that's attending the party in the leaked script (if that's to be believed). Choosing a trendy status symbol like a Porsche 911 would make a lot of sense if something like that happens. It would be like criticizing the fact that Bumblebee was rusty and beat up in the '07 movie without seeing the context of the film. Yeah, Bumblebee being a clunker would seem a bit weird, until you realize they made him rusty in order to justify why Sam was able to get him cheap (a shiny well-maintained vintage car would be way out of Sam's budget, and feel really suspicious in a junky used car lot).

    If an ambulance or mechanical T-Rex were seen on set, I would honestly be saying the same thing. Like, there were multiple characters in G1 who turned into an ambulance and multiple who turned into a mechanical T-Rex. And more in later incarnations. I think it would be a bit silly to get mad if it doesn't turn out to be Ratchet and Grimlock. Just because they're the most popular characters with those altmodes doesn't mean only they can turn into them. If they write a script that calls for Wheeljack as an ambulance, I'm totally open to it. It's not like Wheeljack's racecar altmode mattered storywise. Considering he does repairs on Autobots, an ambulance might actually fit him better. A T-Rex being Jetfire would admittedly be a bit weirder, but if it were needed for the story I'd be open to it.
     
  6. waniel239

    waniel239 Monitor of the 15th Galactic Convergence

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    The thing with Marvel is that even for their "definitive take" on the comic-based mythos, they've still had to make some serious compromises to make the classic characters and storylines work for modern audiences. A good example of this is the fact that the most "classic" looking Iron Man suit doesn't appear until Endgame, with the Mark 85 looking the most like the classic Iron Man in terms of color scheme. Another good example is the change of Nick Fury's ethnicity from white to black, from Hasselhoff to Jackson, among other stark differences between the comics and the MCU. There are even those who feel the Marvel movies are unfaithful adaptation because they don't go far enough. But as far as I can tell, every Transformers adaptation has laid down the basics in some form or fashion and moved forward from there. Maybe they don't all go the route of the original, but they tend to stick to the classic narrative within the bounds of their own continuity.

    I agree with you that with the right people on board, you can make a successful adaptation for more casual new fans. But what would be considered the best adaptation? What you may think may differ from another TFW regular, who differs from another independent of you two.

    While there is one widely accepted and appreciated "definitive" take on Iron Man, there are many takes on Batman across film which can each be considered "definitive" for one reason or another. The issue I take with "definitive" is that it implies that there is some end-all be-all version of something that everyone will have to accept and/or like because it is "objectively" the best and most accurate version of that thing. The closest I think we can ever get to "definitive Transformers" is G1 itself, and even then it seems to have its issues and errors with adapting characters that some have pointed out, nor would I want that to be all Transformers is every time it becomes adapted for a new audience or medium. The fact is that you can never please everyone, and no matter what you try or perceive to be the best version of a thing, someone else will disagree with you and find others in their camp. And to answer your last question, yes, since we already do that.
     
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  7. TheSoundwave

    TheSoundwave Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, this is pretty much the truth.

    One 'problem' with the Transformers franchise is that it's not the result of one creator's artistic vision, like Batman or Spider-Man. Those franchises have gone though minor changes over the decades, but the important core elements have been more or less preserved through each incarnation. Whereas Transformers is more like a hodgepodge of stuff that was pulled from a variety of plotless sources (like Diaclone and Microman and whatnot), and then assimilated to make Transformers, with the whole brand structured (by committee) around making the products look as cool as possible. And whenever the current version started getting stale, they changed it up to sell a new product.

    Transformers has been reinventing itself since 1986. The 'first two seasons' stuff is very different from the post-movie stuff, and Beast Wars was different from anything that came before it. When a lot of people talk about a "definitive Transformers movie", I feel like they really mean "A definitive telling of the G1 first two seasons' aesthetic and feel". Which might be somewhat doable, but even that presents problems. Like, there was never really a core cast...different characters get different amounts of focus in each episode, and a lot of episodes were about spotlighting a character of the week. It wasn't like Animated or Prime (or the existing movies), where there's a nice clean team of 5 or so characters on each side.

    And even if you managed to distill G1 down into something "definitive", it's utterly impossible to encapsulate the entire brand. A hardcore G1 fan's idea of a "definitive Transformers movie" would look very different from an Armada fan's idea. Which is why I feel like storytellers should just focus on telling fun good new stories. Beast Wars isn't beloved because it was a definitive telling of what came before, or even because it had fanservice. It's beloved because it had good storytelling, and because it had the guts to do something new with the concept of transforming robots.
     
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  8. waniel239

    waniel239 Monitor of the 15th Galactic Convergence

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    ^That's definitive Transformers.
     
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  9. Galvatron1998

    Galvatron1998 Maximal

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    Well put. There will never be a "definitive" Transformers movie and I'm all for that. Reinventions are a part of what Transformers is. I think the best we can hope for is a solid batch of movies that honors and respects the brand while also trying something new.
     
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  10. Magnum Dongus

    Magnum Dongus Wishing for a reboot

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    But if you showed someone pre-2008 who is familiar with comics the movie Iron Man design, they would still probably immediately recognize who it is.
    9FF1A72F-8A94-4B67-9678-3DE9E32B5CC8.jpeg 7155CFFE-112C-443A-84C1-BB626EB04D03.png
    With the majority of the characters in Transformers, the same can not be said.
    13376AE6-5F5F-47AB-A6DD-2DD23C561342.jpeg 6043881D-B4A0-4513-9A4A-5461EEF60D87.jpeg
    Ironhide, for example, shares absolutely no design cues with the character he’s apparently based on. Surely a little bit of red could help? Or a head crest? Or something? But no, there was no attempt to update him in any way. That’s the main issue I think most people have. While some design changes are expected, it is equally expected to still be recognizable.
     
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  11. Paok

    Paok Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that modernizing a character's suit a bit here, or changing a supporting character's ethnicity there are serious compromises. I think they know how to keep the spirit of things intact and also a lot of the lore, iconography and tone. But they also know where it fits to change a few things. Which, I find healthy. It's not like there's suddenly a dude who's a billionaire genius with an iron suit who is called Thor in the movies and you're stuck in the past if you don't accept that brilliant change.

    That was my argument too. Every Transformers adaptation has laid down the basics in some form of fashion and moved forward from there, but people argue that "it always changes".

    Some versions lay down the basics more successfully than others. Some diverge more than others. It's a shame that the mainstream movies, that are meant to introduce the brand to the widest possible audience, are on the lesser side of this. To be honest, other than a few names, even fewer design details and just having some kind of Autobots and Decepticons duking it out, it's objectively one of the most diverging series of media that the franchise has ever put out in its 40 year history. You know what everyone thought when the rumour spread that the next movie would be called "The Transformers". I bet most people thought the same. And there's a reason for that.

    Yes, I agree with that. But I would argue that, most comic book characters and the mythologies surrounding them, pretty much came to be in a similar way, because that's how things work. In many cases, it has been decades for creators to be recognised as such and specifically credited with creating characters. Why do we keep forgetting the original creators of the Transformers mythology and characters that we know? Bob Budianski, Simon Furman, Flint Dille, Ron Friedman. Did they work any differently than any of the celebrated Marvel creators? Does their work hold lesser value, because others have worked on reboots in the future?

    And even so, yes, even if Transformers came to be by committee... Isn't the result still the same? It's far bigger than toys. It's a great and timeless piece of mythology that works.

    I'd say that even the second season differs fairly noticeably from the first. And I'd say that the Beast Era, while not intended to be that, ended up working spectacularly as a sequel and even add depth to the mythology of the G1 world. But, yes, obviously G1, with being the first realisation of this mythology, was also obviously intended to be as the most logical way into it. The format of the Saturday morning cartoon is obviously very different than that of the feature film, so that second argument is pointless. Every adaptation has to fit the medium. And the comics (Marvel, IDW and even Dreamwave) have, most of the times, approached Transformers in the way that I feel that the movies should. I can't understand why they do the "definitive" stuff in the comics, while the movies go randomly experimental. It would make sense to me, if it was the other way around. You'd want to introduce the widest possible audience to the very very basics in a solid manner. Something that "MTMTE" accomplishes in about an hour, mind you. And then take it from there, while you try all the random stuff in the comics.

    Again, let's not beat around the bush. No matter what's anyone's favourite, we have an idea of what the fundamentals of this myth are.

    That, and, less superficially, the main issue is that no single character also acts in a way that resembles the original and familiar version of themselves. Not even Prime. That's the bigger issue I think. If they looked a bit different but still acted like what their names makes us expect, then, I bet we wouldn't bother so much.
     
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  12. waniel239

    waniel239 Monitor of the 15th Galactic Convergence

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    While they would have recognized it as Iron Man, would they have liked it? As for Ironhide, there are bts videos documenting the reasoning behind certain design changes such as not making Ironhide red. I would argue there was a (successful) attempt to update him, as instead of being a simple van shared with Ratchet, he's given his own distinct vehicle to further distinguish him among the group of Autobots in the first movie. And he does have a head crest, maybe not in the same manner as G1 Ironhide, but he does have one.
     
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  13. DarkRed401

    DarkRed401 Well-Known Member

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    At the very least if it has a good soundtrack and cinematography I will be happy with it
     
  14. BigRed

    BigRed Well-Known Member

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    Most definitely not, by the time the first Michael Bay film came out I had already been a fan for 12 years thanks to Beast Wars hooking me in and never letting up. Though I doubt you're 'just curious' considering I recall your past attempts at trying to write off people's opinions by some absurd mad paranoid claim that I was some kind of child pretending to be an old-time fan thru "tfwiki readings".
     
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  15. snokoan

    snokoan Well-Known Member

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    From the set and yes it's rise of the beasts Tyrese pretty much confirmed that. Screenshot_20210727-154746_Instagram.jpg
     
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  16. jungle penguins

    jungle penguins Well-Known Member

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    Unlike Ratchet I think Ironhide was never meant to resemble his G1 design at all. Probably one of those "name cool?" scenarios, like Barricade.
     
  17. Dinobot Snarl

    Dinobot Snarl Well-Known Member

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    After seeing the reviews for Snake Eyes, I've realized Paramount is the problem.

    Snake Eyes is the villain, never wears his mask, is always talking, never scarred / burned, is completely unlikable.
    Snake Eyes is well known for wearing a mask (never taking it off) and being silent because of injuries.

    So the stupid runs deep in this company.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2021
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  18. Novaburnhilde

    Novaburnhilde シン・ブリュンヒルド

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    I'm starting to think the problem was making a Snake Eyes origin story to begin with, his whole deal is that he's an enigma of a man with a past shrouded in mystery. We don't need to know every single detail about how he became a mute, scarred Ninja commando, all we need to REALLY know is that he has shared history with Storm Shadow.

    If they aren't going to even get his backstory right, they shouldn't bother with it.

    Why not a Duke backstory? Especially if they were intending on relaunching the Joe films with this one, why start with the guy well known for being mute and rarely showing his face?

    I can theorize why they'd choose Snake Eyes instead of someone like Duke or Roadblock but that's neither here nor there really, the point is Snake Eyes was probably a bad idea in retrospect. If they were really hellbent on telling his story they should have 1. Waited a few films and 2. Did their research and do it justice.
     
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  19. snokoan

    snokoan Well-Known Member

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    It's like saying why did soundwave take the vow of silence and what caused him for that with his past. It can work what matters is the execution if they made a rated r animated movie about talking foods and get. Bunch of people liking it says alot there about execution
     
  20. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Dukeup Nukhead

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    Except then that's just ignorance because I think you're talking about the Prime version of Soundwave...which had him apparently be mute...at the same time he's around and talking during the events of WFC/FOC.
     
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