Transformers Prime Has Some Of The Most Developed Characters, Period.

Discussion in 'Transformers Earthspark and Cartoon Discussion' started by Soundlips, Apr 29, 2021.

  1. RobotKnight95

    RobotKnight95 Unamused and Insane

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2014
    Posts:
    3,553
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    222
    Likes:
    +2,926
    I'm failing to see any rule about good guys not being allowed to kill their enemies or why it should be applied to Prime exclusively. "Good guys don't kill"? There's an endless list of heroes who prove otherwise. Hell, Optimus sought revenge on Megatron after the warlord nearly killed Rafael. He realized the war was never gonna end in peace so long as Megatron lived. I believe the phrase is "One shall stand, one stall fall". As in, one will die.
    Remember this.
    And like I just said, people will only focuses on Arcee's dead partner trait and completely ignores the list I just gave of other things she's known for. Burnout, you just proved my point that people will not look at other traits but instead super-focus on one for an argument sake. Cognitive bias at its finest.
    It's amazes me how you've cherry picked what constitutes as characterization. Saying that a Cybertronian sport, being thrown by two "jock" characters isn't something to be considered but Knock-Out's movie ventures are.
    B R U H. I literally listed Bulkhead enjoying the same interests as Miko, all the Autobots getting involved with their school projects, and more. YOU EVEN CONFIRMED IT. That is their down time. I'll concede that yes, they did show less of that as the show went on, but by then it focused more on the conflict than the bots chilling.

    1) Tell me, no seriously tell me, in what version of Transformers doesnt have the main objective involve taking down Megatron. The instigator of the war. Leader of the Decepticons, the villain, faction. Also, they're DECEPTICONS. As in Deceptive. Even Dwayne Johnson figured that out.
    2) No one told Arcee revenge was pointless. She gets reprimanded when she goes off on her own but nobody ever says "revenge is bad".

    I'm honestly amused how far people will go to justify this. I will say again. Character writing is more than just a basic summary of a character. It is how one reacts, converses, and interacts with objects and others. This can be done is subtle ways that can't be picked up on because they aren't drawn to attention.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  2. Applejacktimus

    Applejacktimus Still see the Sunshine

    Joined:
    May 28, 2012
    Posts:
    8,756
    Trophy Points:
    287
    Location:
    Laconia-2
    Likes:
    +25,829
    Nh. I think this thread's starting to degenerate into a dirt-slinging fest, even if I agree with the negative opinions on the show. Not gonna take part in that.

    Hey uh, just gotta correct you on this since I've seen you make this mistake a few times: Starscream did not have the Omega Keys in Partners when Arcee forces him to fight her. Partners was late S1 and Inside Job was late S2, and Arcee wasn't involved in the Keys incident. The only thing at stake in Partners was Starscream possibly joining the Autobots, however I think that was a real possibility as he was questioning his place at the time, even if he only would have taken advantage of them.
     
    • Like Like x 8
  3. Shady boi

    Shady boi Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2020
    Posts:
    2,242
    Trophy Points:
    212
    Location:
    Velocitron
    Likes:
    +4,175
    Ebay:
    Prime Wars
     
    • Like Like x 4
  4. Matrixbeast

    Matrixbeast Here comes a thought

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2010
    Posts:
    9,263
    Trophy Points:
    287
    Likes:
    +1,735
    Ebay:
    I don't really have much to comment, but concerning Arcee's nonstop beef with her partners dying...
    I remember in whatever episode, where the Spark Extractor appeared, and wiped out a platoon of Vehicons en masse, and basically confirmed to the audience that they weren't drones, but actual, living Cybertronians.

    The Autobots slaughter them constantly. Shouldn't Arcee have even an ounce of sympathy considering the pain she goes apparently goes through?
     
    • Like Like x 11
  5. Rojixus

    Rojixus Generation 2's Strongest Soldier

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2020
    Posts:
    5,974
    Trophy Points:
    247
    Likes:
    +18,461
    Nope! The Decepticons killed Tailgate and Cliffjumper, so fuck every last one of'em!
     
    • Like Like x 2
  6. The Zingos

    The Zingos Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2014
    Posts:
    737
    Trophy Points:
    127
    Likes:
    +85
    Anybody who defends TFP is only doing so out of nostalgia, associating the show with better times when they had no responsibilities and their only concern was wondering when their next bottle of milk was going to show up in their crib.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  7. YellowCorvette

    YellowCorvette Average Core Gundam enjoyer

    Joined:
    May 19, 2017
    Posts:
    9,778
    News Credits:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    247
    Location:
    Kuala Lumpur
    Likes:
    +68,716
    Ironically enough, all of these points do remind me of the time where I do think that maybe this could be a setup for a potential plot point to further complete Arcee's character arc, where someone from the Decepticons eventually grew disillusioned with the Decepticons cause (Maybe Dreadwing or Breakdown) later defects to the Autobot's side and stays there for the rest of the series. Arcee doesn't want him on their team, but while Optimus Prime understands her grievances, he cannot overlook the guy's sincerity or the edge that his inside information could give them.

    The two don't get along and it eventually hits the boiling point when Arcee confronts him about how the Decepticons are the ones that are responsible for her partner died, and that she would never ever forgive them at all (To the point where she could mention that she would gladly take the chance to kill them if she can get away with it without Optimus's interference)

    Through gritted teeth, the guy tells her that it was war and that he also has no other choices. She doesn't accept that and keeps pushing him, until finally snaps and calls her a hypocrite because, as he reveals, everything she says about him is true about her as well. He tells her that she also killed someone he cared about; He gives her a name and when that doesn't ring a bell, he describes what happened with a voice that barely constrained his grief and anger towards her as well. From that moment, maybe Arcee could eventually grow to the harsh reality and realization that she has become so filled with desire for vengeance within herself, and become no different than the Decepticons she swore to eliminate.

    Maybe from this, Arcee could learn that no matter how well-intentioned you are, you can become so desensitized to everything in a war that the enemy becomes a faceless mook to be shot without thought or remorse in your eyes; rather than an actual person who was also fighting for what they believe in and that they're not so different after all.

    Despite this harsh revelation didn't automatically make them friends, both Arcee and this guy eventually got the understand each other mutually, forgive and reconcile with each other in their respective partner's death, and reach the same conclusion of the only way to stop this conflict is to stop Megatron.

    Yeah, it sounds a bit far-fetched; but it'll probably be a much better character arc rather than both of her grudge against Starscream and Airachnid went and ended nowhere.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2021
    • Like Like x 11
  8. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout ...and I'll whisper "No."

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Posts:
    45,445
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    467
    Location:
    [REDACTED]
    Likes:
    +41,173
    Except, again, that was gratuitous violence that was completely unnecessary as Bulkhead had already rendered the Vehicon unconscious. A simple gunshot to the head would have been enough, but he literally tears out its internals.


    First off, the point of my paragraph was explaining why Arcee is always negatively viewed because of 'Dead Partners'. Sure she did some other things but that doesn't change what left a lasting impression. That's a failure on the show and you can't deny the fact that her two biggest problems with two Decepticons is literally copy pasted across them to the point they basically killed the same dude just painted differently.

    And while Arcee gets the brunt of it, the whole 'dead partners' thing isn't exclusive to her. Wheeljack and Dreadwing come to blows IIRC because Dreadwing kills Seaspray, a character who doesn't even technically exist beyond prose as we never actually see him (how convenient, telling instead of showing), and in the OTFCC snippet I posted, the morons writing this crap clearly were even aware that they overplayed 'dead partners' with Arcee so they didn't do it again with Breakdown/Bulkhead.

    And then there's fucking Miko. She gets the special version where it's almost dead partners because holy goddamn, more of a shit is given by the show that Bulkhead almost dies as opposed to Cliffjumper who only Arcee seems to give a shit about, and Miko pressing that damn launch missiles button is so Earth shattering that it literally influences the direction of the plot. Namely because Megatron is a fucking idiot.

    So...what the hell were the Autobots doing for the three years between arriving on Earth and meeting the kids?

    The main thing about showing what the bots do in their free time isn't simply showing what they are like off the battlefield, but an opportunity to develop the oft neglected fact these characters are coming from their own culture and civilization. Even though the bulk of it collapsed with the death of Cybertron, they could continue doing the things they liked and from an anthropological standpoint, this is a preservation of their lost way of life.

    Personally, one of my favorite examples is AllSpark Day from Rescue Bots. It might legit be the only case in the franchise where Cybertronians are shown actually having their own holiday, which frankly isn't all that different from typical human ones, and the episode ends with the town getting together to help their resident robot aliens celebrate it in a show of appreciation. Heatwave, who at the beginning of the episode wasn't keen on actually celebrating the day because they aren't on Cybertron anymore, admits at the end that maybe AllSpark day does in fact have a place on Earth after all.

    IDW continuity after he decides to abandon the Decepticons. They even included Autobot stickers with the CW Megatron Leader toy around the time that happened.

    My memory must be fuzzy, so thanks for the correction. I really wasn't paying too much attention to Prime at that point so I'm not surprised I'm getting some details wrong.

    Even worse, they almost killed Bulkhead! Which is literally worse than if he'd actually died!
     
    • Like Like x 6
  9. TheUltimateBum

    TheUltimateBum Nautica Lover

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2016
    Posts:
    2,670
    Trophy Points:
    217
    Likes:
    +4,986
    Umm, Rescue Bots and RiD2015 are knocking on the door.
     
    • Like Like x 9
  10. AStreetcarNamedWheeljack

    AStreetcarNamedWheeljack Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2021
    Posts:
    571
    Trophy Points:
    132
    Likes:
    +1,517
    That wasn't Tailgate, that was copy paste Cliffjumper.
    [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 4
  11. TheUltimateBum

    TheUltimateBum Nautica Lover

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2016
    Posts:
    2,670
    Trophy Points:
    217
    Likes:
    +4,986
    I remember the first time I saw this scene... I was laughing my ass off. Doesn't help that I already heavily disliked Arcee, but just the fact that Tailgate is just Cliffjumper without any change of colors just really made me laugh and not in a good way.
     
    • Like Like x 10
  12. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP Be strong enough to be gentle

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2005
    Posts:
    98,379
    News Credits:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    462
    Location:
    agile house
    Likes:
    +102,007
    Instagram:
    I don’t think there’s a single line of non-literal dialogue in the whole show. I think one of the most painful examples is after Megatron’s return and punishment of Starscream, he says outright that their positions are now reversed, and that they will never be reversed. Then Starscream literally says afterwards their positions shall be reversed. It’s so painful and clunky, but clearly thinks it’s so clever. It’s bad enough that the irony is spelled out for the audience, but the characters literally speak their motivations aloud in awkward dialogue.

    I’m reminded of how in TFA whenever Starscream talked to others (usually Decepticons) he’d adopt this very flowery, embellished dialogue, but when he was alone he’d often mutter to himself like when his wing got bent or telling himself to keep a “solemn face” after he thought Megatron died. It wasn’t over the top or silly, it was just normal.
    This is the same Arcee who hypocritically grinned with pleasure as she shot a defenceless, comatose Megatron for no other reasons to be petty, then a few eps later left a healthy, conscious Megatron alive in a rock pile because killing him would not be what Optimus would do. This is also the same Arcee that told Bee not to be consumed by vengeance after RAF was shot by Megatron, and a few episodes later abandoned her team to continue her personal vendetta.

    The morals of this cartoon were so ass-backwards.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2021
    • Like Like x 15
  13. GeoSociety

    GeoSociety Quit

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2018
    Posts:
    727
    Trophy Points:
    172
    Likes:
    +2,035
    Transformers. Prime. Has. Some. Of. The. Most. Developed. Characters. Period.

    "Hey Optimus, wanna see something funny?"

    "No."
     
    • Like Like x 13
  14. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP Be strong enough to be gentle

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2005
    Posts:
    98,379
    News Credits:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    462
    Location:
    agile house
    Likes:
    +102,007
    Instagram:
    My young, naive twenty-two-year-old brain honestly thought that line would be setup for a joke later on in the episode where Prime does see something funny and has an awkward dad laugh at it, humanizing Prime a bit and giving him some personality.

    But no, he really did not want to see anything funny.
     
    • Like Like x 11
  15. MrSoundmeister

    MrSoundmeister Bang,Bang Boom!

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2010
    Posts:
    5,730
    Trophy Points:
    287
    Likes:
    +4,382
    What makes it even more hilarious is that Tailgate in the show is basically just very similar to Cliffjumper compared to his toy. Like Tailgate's toy at least had different coloring. Seriously, if they really wanted to find use for the Cliffjumper model, just do what they did to Dreadwing & introduce someone like... Hubcap or something. Like depict the guy as a one-off character that doesn't even need to get killed. Maybe make a plot line involving Arcee noticing that bot sorta reminds her of Cliffjumper, i think they could have some explanation like "Oh, this? I honestly thought this body-type is standard-grade for most Infiltrators" or something in that nature.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2021
    • Like Like x 4
  16. BigRed

    BigRed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2015
    Posts:
    3,490
    News Credits:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    222
    Likes:
    +9,122
    If the show wanted to do a message on how all your enemies are fuckers that need to motherfucking die die die kill them all then they shouldn't have wasted episodes pretending that the situation was grey and not black and white or flirting with the idea of redemption for enemies, only to backtrack on it by making them increasingly more and absurdly cartoonishly evil, until suddenly for the show's finale we have Megatron become good cuz Unicron zapped him a couple of times.

    Arcee was told that she shouldn't rush into danger mindlessly out of petty revenge after she herself admited her bloodlust cost them custody of the decepticon second in command Starscream. Then episodes later she tells Bumblebee she knows how bad it feels to see a friend harmed but that seeking revenge will get your ass killed. In the very next season, she rushes for revenge and almost gets her ass killed twice, then she does it AGAIN but contrivance allows her to kick Airachnid into a stasis pod and then Optimus congratulates her for it, even though it was the -exact- same situation except this time she won. So I guess mindlessly rampaging for revenge is bad, til its not, then its bad again, then its not because you won.

    Badly written show. Bad dialogue, wonky tone and messages, weak character writing, dialogue written by consulting thesaurus every so often, weak plotting and even budget handling. It just wasn't good my man.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  17. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP Be strong enough to be gentle

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2005
    Posts:
    98,379
    News Credits:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    462
    Location:
    agile house
    Likes:
    +102,007
    Instagram:
    It's amazing how virtually all Prime's biggest shortcomings are due to unfulfilled promises and extra effort made for setting up plots they never intended to resolve. Don't make Bulkhead's injury out to be a potential lifelong disability, just make it an injury he needs to recover from. Don't mention history you won't explore. Don't pretend to have moral messages if you're not going to commit to them or be consistent. Don't have Arcee learn her lesson if she's just going to forget it. Don't give her duel revenge subplots if you're not going to properly resolve either.

    Prime's failings were in false promises and wasted potential, but if they just didn't include those promises no one would've cared. Of course then the show would've been the exact same bland, formulaic, plotless meandering akin to the UT, which I think says a heck of a lot. Prime accomplished arguably less than Armada and Cybertron, and it's pattern of unresolved plot lines is eerily similar to Energon's own dismissive abandonment or mishandling of plot threads.
     
    • Like Like x 10
  18. Shady boi

    Shady boi Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2020
    Posts:
    2,242
    Trophy Points:
    212
    Location:
    Velocitron
    Likes:
    +4,175
    Ebay:
    I would say no too if the funny thing was the utter joke of a show i was in.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  19. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout ...and I'll whisper "No."

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Posts:
    45,445
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    467
    Location:
    [REDACTED]
    Likes:
    +41,173
    The worst part about the whole Arcee dead partners thing, and really with Prime in general, is that it's almost entirely telling and not showing. Sure, Cliff bites it at the beginning but Arcee is acting as if her brother died, which while sort of okay is honestly hard to really feel the gravitas of because we really just didn't know who Cliffjumper was before he stupidly went into a trap alone and got killed for his trouble.

    Not to mention people feeling ripped off because Cliffjumper getting his own unique body apart from Bumblebee that looked fantastic and billed as a major character in the promos? Everybody was hyped. And then all the hype was burned at the beginning as Cliffjumper's greatest significance was literally just the dead guy everybody got angsty over, specifically Arcee, because they couldn't simply be mad at the Decepticons for destroying their home planet.

    And then along comes Airachnid and all they do is literally repeat the exact same crap they did with Cliffjumper, except this time we don't even hear the guy talk, we're just told Arcee liked him as a partner and then whoops he's dead so time to hate airachnid. The revenge plotlines revolve around understanding relationships that we were told existed, but never actually SHOWN. Cliffjumper only gets shown in a flashback episode well past the point anybody truly gives a shit about the matter.

    The only time a character relationship actually paid off with a revenge plotline was Miko wanting to avenge Bulkhead, who again didn't even die nor suffer any lasting consequences, but as a character Miko herself is just a big ball of problems. Namely, she is the least Japanese-like Japanese person I've seen in fiction, to the point the show seemed to use the exchange student backstory as an excuse to make her the kooky genki girl. After all, for somebody who comes from a culture with a dominating obsession with respect, she shows none to her host family, and for somebody whose primary language is not English, she doesn't speak a word of actual Japanese which she should have in times where she would have mentally defaulted to using the language she is most familiar with which, again, is not English. If you pretend that officially she isn't actually from Japan, or otherwise isn't a native to a non-American country (I.E. adoption from another country so she was raised in the states but not born in them), then IIRC the only things that would change are three throwaway lines in two episodes of Darkness Rising; the one where she specifies ignoring her host family, the one about her cats back in Tokyo, and the one about the groundbridge being able to send her back to Toyko.
     
    • Like Like x 8
  20. Novaburnhilde

    Novaburnhilde 狡猾の死神

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2013
    Posts:
    25,072
    News Credits:
    45
    Trophy Points:
    362
    Likes:
    +53,080
    This is sort of why I usually roll my eyes when I hear people bitch about nostalgia in regards to Geewun, because a lot of the time it just sounds like they're angry that THEIR nostalgia isn't being catered to. I think a lot of the defenses for the Bay films come from a similar place, due to a big chunk of fans with the franchise now being quite young when the first live action movie came out.
     
    • Like Like x 2