Yeah, no need for expletives.

Megatron has seen off Primes before so I don't buy that he and the Autobots are lost without Optimus Prime... He's also conquered worlds other than earth before and known what to do with them, more reasons why AHM works best as and should have been a 'what if' book set in another universe. I didn't enjoy Megatron v Devastator or the Decepticons fighting aimlessly versus the Human Race enough to forgive how weak the story was as I wanted more than just fightscenes and explosions from 12 issues of a four dollar a month comic, I'm sorry. Maybe it would have been more enjoyable and a tighter read as the 6 issues it was supposedly planned to be, but that wasn't how things played out.

Spotlight Jazz was mediocre at best, but I won't blame Shane for that.

 

The problem with that is Megatron would have to solely exist in-continuity to fight Prime, without any goals.

But this Megatron is the same Megatron from Furman's run, who has better things to do than piddly-fart around. With the Autobots out of the way, he could be setting up new infiltration forces, or fighting battles on other planets. If Ore-13 still exists, his troops can mine it as they did before he arrived in the first place.

It's a decent idea, but the foundation is quicksand.

 

Not only that, but "Megatron cannot do anything without Prime" was also done to death in the Marvel comics. So... not exactly breaking new ground, there.

 

Wow... things is heatin' up in here!  

Disagree. IDW Sixshot is a planet-beater, with armour forged out of dark matter from a black hole or whatever, who even Megatron needs a kill-switch for. Not exactly a fair comparison.

But unfortunately Jazz is the victim of a common bias against those original G1 cars... many of whom never really got much credit for their abilities. Thanks to the G1 cartoon, Jazz basically just became "the guy who likes rock music". Let's remember that Jazz is Prime's right hand, meaning he's one of the Autobot elite. While not quite as high-ranked as Prowl, he is probably more likely to get his hands dirty on dangerous solo missions. Springer and the Wreckers are the guys who charge in guns blazing, and hit it until it doesn't stand anymore. Jazz is the guy who slips in, gets the goods, and parachutes out again, and anyone who saw him is either dead or incapacitated.  

His G1 bio goes to great lengths to describe just how absurdly competent he is, and he sports a hefty 10 SKILL in his Specs. Instead, most fans seem to feel that his interest in Earth culture and his affable nature undercuts how "badass" he really is. Shane's depiction of Jazz was LONG overdue, and finally gives him a bit of credit. It's one of my favourite moments from AHM, especially considering how utterly peripheral Jazz was in Furman's run.

And just because:

In short, he's James Bond, McGyver and Shaft all in one package. Springer is a heavy who's probably used to throwing his weight around. While I wouldn't necessarily give Jazz even odds in a clean fight, taking Springer by surprise and turning the tables is exactly what I'd expect from him.  

Okay, I agree with you there. Cliffjumper has always been the guy who thinks he's a badass, but more likely will just get himself in over his head. He has below-average strength, intelligence, endurance and skill according to his old Specs... so I think Shane was going out on a limb there, trying to make Cliffy into some kind of super-commando.  

Definitely a matter of personal taste. I couldn't care less about Furman's grand epic cosmic plot-to-end-all-plots, because I couldn't be bothered to care about any of the characters. Especially in a fiction like Transformers, where the expansive cast of pre-established characters is the touchstone, I think Furman lost me by making most of the characters bland, overly-verbose mouthpieces for his convoluted plot.

Transformers is a funny fiction/fandom... when you deal in simple stock elements, people complain it's not sophisticated enough. When you ask for more maturity and intellectual exploration, people get up in arms about "it's just a kids' cartoon, it's not supposed to make sense!". And trust me, I know it from being on both sides.  

Honestly, I feel like a lot of the critiques of Drift ring false. How is he really "unoriginal", as compared to just about any other character or comic book archetype? I like innovative characters and storytelling as much as the next guy*, but there are also reasons why archetypes are great, and why they belong in the comic book genre. There is literally nothing wrong with Drift, and most of the people who express their disdain for the character usually have to resort to hyperbolic fanboy cliches that don't actually represent the character... or at least not yet.

*which incidentally, is why I liked All Hail Megatron... despite its flaws, it attempts to tell a different kind of TF story, one that is character-driven rather than event-driven... though admittedly to the point that the "plot" is only barely supported as a framework to prop up the ideas and interactions.

We know that's not true. We had Movie Ratchet, Animated Ratchet and Universe Ratchet all on the racks at roughly the same time. There was Animated Jazz and Movie Jazz, Animated and Movie Bumblebee, Movie Smokescreen and Universe Smokescreen... the list goes on. Evidence suggests that it really doesn't matter if a character simultaneously exists in multiple toy lines, so really I can't see that being a reason for Universe Jazz not being produced. Just sayin'.

NOoooo... that would be due to Furman's lamentable lack of research and attention to character... remember?

Absolutely... Springer is a MONSTER, both in terms of his Spec stats and description. However, under the circumstances in AHM, I think it went down precisely how it should have. Springer leads with bravado and self-assurance, and Jazz pulls a fast one on him. It's not so much that I'm rooting for the underdog... Springer just gets so much chuffing in the fandom and media, and it's nice to show that someone like Jazz still rates, y'know?

I think the big problem with this thesis is that it means that all these characters are absolutes, and cannot be swayed one way or another. I do agree that despite attempts to make Grimlock "cuddly" or a "righteous" well-meaning thug, he is still fundamentally a bully... a "might-makes-right" type, and I'd like to see that portrayed more often. It's quite possible that guys like Grim and Slag are only with the Autobots because the Decepticons pissed them off at some point, and now they oppose them largely out of petty, unheroic traits like bitterness and spite.

Here's the thing...

I actually agree with you about Sunstreaker's motivations for betraying the Autobots. I don't think it works. It doesn't make internal sense. It's a half-baked idea. He's so distraught and dislikes humans so much that he completely destroys the entire Autobot galactic infrastructure and loses the war? Hrm. I don't buy it.

However, I will stand by the notion that Sunstreaker is one of the Autobots I would most see as sympathetic to the Decepticons (barring any personal beef he may have with them). It always felt like Sideswipe would be his anchor... Sideswipe is no angel himself, but at least feels like the lovable rogue, who deep down does the right thing. Sunstreaker has no such moral compass in my interpretation, and as such, he is even more untrustworthy than guys like Mirage, Slag or Twin Twist.

So there it is... I can totally see Sunstreaker turning on the Autobots, but I wasn't convinced in this case. I don't think he'd lose that much sleep over a little bit of genocide though... that's sort of what being a sociopath is all about, right?  

Much like Jazz's secret badassery, this is another thing I LOVED. These are how these characters should always have been written... not as bland supporting cast members, but as movers and shakers in their own right. Prowl's agenda is an example of how subplots SHOULD be handled. We need about 5 more subplots like this, and for them to be stretched out over a couple of years, until they come to a boiling point. THAT's good writing, not this 6-issue trade-paperback-friendly bullshit.

Agree! I have never been a fan of Jazz. He's nowhere near my Top 10 TF characters, but I have always liked Prowl for some reason. That said, I like it when characters get their proper due, and Jazz was way OVERDUE. If you read work from any TF writer, you'll see their "favourites" emerge... whether it's Grimlock, Ratchet, Blaster, Bumblebee, Hot Rod, etc... but unfortunately, Shane McCarthy can do no right in some peoples' minds.  

Exactly... finally we get a sense of Megatron's larger plan for a new empire... something beyond simple "lord of the galaxy" megalomania or "convert Cybertron into a space dreadnought" short-sighted war-mongering. It revealed that Megatron's driving force is above all, a weird sort of idealism. I liked it.

Also I found the Starscream/Megatron dynamic very interesting in AHM (and for what it's worth, a good follow-up on their relationship in Furman's run). The point is, Megatron really LIKES Starscream. He's been grooming him for leadership for so long now, in his tough-love kind of way, and looks forward to the day that Starscream actually surpasses him... but that day hasn't arrived yet. The circle became complete when Starscream defended the critically wounded Megatron with emotional fervor. Great, great stuff there.

Agreed. I would describe it as a bit clumsy, but with interesting ideas and a reflective tone. I hated AHM #1, and thought the last issue was kind of lame, but I looked forward to everything in between because the writing was actually getting more adept, and more intriguing with each issue. You could practically feel McCarthy getting more comfortable as he progressed.

See, that's just it... I'm not even a big fan of Jazz (though admittedly, I like him better than Springer). But it drives me crazy when characters are mishandled or important traits are ignored. It's kind of sad... I guess it's impotent fan rage, but it bugs me when it's obvious that I know my G1 Transformers better than the guy writing the official text. I mean, dude... you're getting PAID for this! Get it right!  

To put it in context, I always disliked the idea of Headmasters... and in this case, the Hunter story didn't really seem to build on Sunstreaker's existing character in any interesting ways. Granted, it never got a chance to develop much further, but it sort of felt like it could have been ANY Autobot car in pretty much the same scenario, and it would have changed nothing. But then... that's Furman and his lack of characterization for ya.  

See, to me this is why Perceptor's IDW portrayal is actually guilty of most of the things that people are accusing Drift of being. Perceptor has gone from the absent-minded professor, to a silent, brooding, John Woo-action stone-cold sniper badass in a nearly instantaneous transformation. He became a super-badass not through any training process or deux ex machina or magic potion... he got shot in the chest, and then simply WILLED himself into badassery, which I find weak. The fact that he modified himself into a super-soldier makes it even more preposterous, since it raises the question "Couldn't you have done all this at any time?? WTF were you waiting for?? You could have converted the entire Autobot army into super-soldiers by now!!"

I mean, as a "nerd pushed too far" Perceptor becomes exactly the kind of empowerment fantasy that fanboys fall prey to too easily. And honestly, a "nerd pushed too far" will still often be a nerd who gets his ass kicked. Perceptor's transformation still feels like a make-over, a posture... and in the battlefield, that's not enough. A battle hardened and experienced soldier is an earned status, not simply a nerd's whim.

Furthermore, we don't really get to experience this transformation... Perceptor just shows up, and he's the frickin' Terminator. I have no problem with him acting as a sniper... his abilities and gear already make him ideally suited to that task. But I find that the accompanying attitude, competence, and two-gun athletics, to be waaaaaay too much.

Nah. Cliffjumper is like the Chicken Hawk from the old Looney Toons. "Lemme at 'em!!" is his strategy... but he's got more spunk than actual power.

On the same topic of Cliffjumper, I just have to take exception to anyone characterizing him as a sniper or marksman. This image comes almost exclusively from that MTMTE episode where he pulls that enormous gun out of nowhere and takes a shot at Megatron (which misses, it's worth pointing out). Cliffjumper is by definition, exactly the worst personality type for sniper work... or anything requiring patience, subtlety or restraint.  

Except now in Mike Costa's run, he has joined the Autobots. Not sure how I feel about that... Thundercracker seems to me the type that would be more likely to try to change the Decepticons into the type of cause he believes in, rather than abandoning it. I feel like he has too much pride to switch sides entirely.

Uhhhh...

Well, for one, I was using the "ninja" as a purely generic loose term for "kick ass martial arts guy"... but I think it's worth pointing out that the "samurai ronin" archetype you're talking about is so idealized that it's almost irrelevant. The Bushido is founded on obedience, unwavering devotion to a master, and an utter lack of self-worth. A ronin is one who, more than anything, has abandoned the Bushido, and the ethics that drive it, in the interests of self-preservation or greed. A ronin is a mercenary, a samurai so false, that he refused to die with his master. In short, a ronin is scum, a rebel against society itself.

To put it another way, the romantic ideal of "honour" among the samurai is little more than an anachronism, a fraud... and a construct of an elitist ruling class. But if you wanted to find a corollary in Japanese heroic fantasy, the archetype of the "Koga Ninja" also fits him... that is, the "good" ninja, who serves the cause of law and order. It's no more or less credible than the "heroic ronin" in the end.  

If anything Drift is closer to the Chinese chivalric fictional archetype of the Xia... or perhaps some form of warrior-monk... knight-errant types who serve the public good, who respect personal honor, who lead individualist lifestyles, and espouse certain noble virtues or philosophies.

Heh... just being a bit anally retentive there... don't mind me.  

There we go.  

Uh, have you read much on Miyamoto Musashi? He's the prototype of the "wandering ronin". His mantra was pretty much "win by whatever means possible". He's also the guy that the writing on Drift's sword is based on.  

This is an absolutely fair criticism. I fully recognize that the events of AHM were really little more than a pretense, plot devices to allow for a certain amount of character development... which is why I didn't dwell on the vagaries so much. But I also agree that more work could have been applied to at least making it seem like the Decepticon plot was going somewhere, or that things were happening for some reason other than "just because".

That's a little biased isn't it? Wheeljack's a grease-monkey and a mad scientist, and I don't really care about those things, so really Wheeljack sucks, right? That's pretty much what you're saying.  

Bear in mind that some of us were quite happy to see characters who were overexposed in Furman's run get knocked into the scenery for a while. Transformers is full of characters, and I don't think a new writer should feel obligated to work with the same elements as the previous writer when given that much variety to play with. And frankly, I don't think Furman was using them all that well to begin with. Springer is as bad a "fan empowerment" character as Drift, and twice as flat. I don't know why he gets so much to do in the fiction, or why people seem to like him at all.

I can't hide my biases... I'll take a 1984-86 character over a Season 3 character any day, so I was happy to see Springer taken down a notch by a first-year Autobot... but all of this is to say, just because Furman used a certain cast that you liked, doesn't mean that McCarthy is a "fanboy" because he moved some of his favourites to the fore once he got the reins. That's an incredibly limited point of view.

I agree with you here... Spotlight:Cliffjumper was awkward, predictable and cheap. Self-contained Spotlights can be touch-and-go... you really have to have something special that you can do with a character, otherwise it comes out like a bad stand-alone episode... or possibly just an over-long MOSAIC piece.

Them's fightin' words!!! If it's not 1984, it's not pure, man. As far as I'm concerned, every year after 1984 was just a successive slide into mediocrity.  

Seriously, I agree about Cliffjumper, but it has nothing to do with his 1984 status. He's just not supposed to be that kind of character. Jazz and Prowl should be awesome, because they were always supposed to be awesome. I don't like Springer much, but he IS supposed to be an Autobot powerhouse, so honestly, I have no problem with him being portrayed as such. Cliffjumper? He's just a hyperactive, belligerent punk, who bites off more than he can chew.  

Again, an entirely fair point.

I believe the scene you're talking about, where Prime actually demotes Prowl based on the Earth situation, is actually a MOSAIC story, not part of the real series.

Exactly my point about Springer... like Getaway, his bio is not very well-written, and comes off like a bad fanfic character with absurd power levels and a dizzying array of seemingly unrelated abilities. I don't believe that anybody should be allowed to praise Springer and bad-mouth Drift while retaining their dignity.  

I'm not sure if that's really my interpretation of Megatron in AHM (though it would fit with his Marvel history)... but isn't it interesting that Costa's ongoing run so far has pretty much done EXACTLY the same thing with Prime losing all sense of direction without Megatron around, with the Autobots spinning their wheels uselessly on Earth, while the Decepticons fall to inner strife, exiled on a dead world? Costa is basically retelling AHM, plot-point for plot-point, but with the roles reversed!!!  

That was kind of cool.  

Yeah... I sort of know what you mean. Omega's about the only "here comes the cavalry" character that I would have accepted in that role. I even smiled a little bit.

zmog

 

Though by the time Animated came it, it had replaced the movie as the main line didn't it? I think Hasbro said something like Universe wouldn't have a corresponding release if it was deemed too similar to a mainline character. I can see then thinking that Animated Jazz an a potential G1 Jazz being too similar

I'd say it's more to do with the desire to keep recognisable 1984 characters together (at least in the real world explanation).

Yeah, I can understand that.

But at the same time, I would like to think that his binary bonding with Hunter, traumatic as the experience might have been, would make him lose sleep over the idea of genocide.

 

Dammit, SMOG, did you see this? 

 

Why can't people just accept something for what it is.

 

The problem here is that it was established that the Decepticons had a protocol for invading planets. It didn't matter whether the Autobots were gone or not, they still had a plan to carry out, which should have meant that we'd see things like proper bases being constructed or the heavy hitters like Sixshot being brought in to finish things up.

What actually did happen in AHM was that McCarthy wanted to write a G1 story that was HARDCORE with mass human casualties and everything.

 

And why cant you accept that not everyone can agree on the same thing?

 

SMOG raises a valid point with Perceptor´s "transformation" from scientist to cold sniper (the training is irrelevant tho, he could have only instaled some subrouttines or progras that gave him sniper abitiles). The dual gun weilding is silly and reeks of fanboyism to be honest. Just like Drift´s "only swords and bigass one he only takes in darkest hours" (seriosuly, in a war were everyone and their mother carries bigass guns, it´s stupid to carry only blades that make you get up close with the enemy), the Dinobots fight with swords, but they also have means of ranged attacks.

Thundercracker changing sides, well, I belive he had some time to see things in another way, so I believe his faction switchng is well justified. I´m actually reading a fanfic were he switches sides because he became friends with a human he kidppaned during the Infiltration timeline (the fic is loosly based in Infiltration and AHM, but it´s it´s own story).

 

Pot: Kettle: Black.

 

Yeah, I've heard Hasbro SAY stuff like that in the past, but looking at how often they've done stuff like releasing very similar characters in different lines (sometimes the SAME line) so they end up on the shelf a the same time, I find it hard to take that seriously as a reason for not doing Jazz in Classics/Universe. Not that it bothers me that much... we've gotten a lot of good characters in that batch (and a few pieces of junk too, I'll admit). I'm sure they'll get around to Wheeljack and Jazz eventually.  

To some degree, sure... but it's not necessarily just the group of characters Furman chose for the Earth mission, but how they were portrayed (or not really portrayed) during that time. Jazz in Furman's run might as well have been, well... anyone.

Also, it's kind of funny that most of the guys Furman used... Prowl, Jazz, Ironhide, Ratchet, Wheeljack, Bumblebee... they're pretty much the entire 1984 command circle... all the highest ranked guys, and almost no basic "warrior" scrubs. I also thought omitting Hound was a mistake, since he's typically characterized as the "scout who loves Earth"... but Furman decided that instead he should be the hard-nosed military CO on some distant outpost? Wha? It's like he glanced at Hound's alt mode and said "Army Jeep = Drill Sergeant... got it!" He did the same thing with the Technobots when he made them into Jetfire's science-nerd team, instead of the volatile shock assault team they're supposed to be. Furman doesn't do his research... or at least doesn't care to work with what is already there.

Yeah, you'd think so. But we really didn't get much insight into that period when they were bonded, unfortunately. And yeah, a big part of that is because of Furman being ushered out, and McCarthy coming with absolutely no interest in following any of Furman's stuff up.

Haha! Yeah, I did, but my post was getting so long, I cut it for time!  

Obviously McCarthy had to try and sell us on the idea of Sunstreaker's trauma... "crying in the corner" is pretty much the easiest (and not best) way to show us that he's falling apart. I already agree that it wasn't really a convincing plot development.

But let's look at it... Sunstreaker was blown up, dissected, experimented on, then had his head kept on life support dangling from the ceiling, forced to act as a nerve cluster for an army of cyborg-human clones... he was already a suicidal mess before Hunter even showed up. Then he had a mind-meld with Hunter, followed by an unceremonious separation (postpartum much?)... all of this happened to a guy who is a total narcissistic egotist with a cruel streak, and an obsession with not appearing weak (or ugly). When you add it all up, he's got plenty of reasons to be an emotional, psychological mess, crying in the corner... and it shouldn't all be lain at Hunter's feet.

I certainly believe it STARTED that way, though I think it quickly became something else. As an unsubstantiated point of interest, I'd say that the first issue was written LONG before the material that came afterward. The whole tone, focus and treatment of character was very different from what took shape in subsequent issues.

This is also why I feel like the "it was always intended to be in-continuity" protestations from McCarthy and IDW sound hollow to me. AHM feels like a storyline McCarthy already had in the works for quite some time, and if anything, the act of having to tailor it to blend with the existing IDW setting forced him to improve on what began as probably a fairly superficial "G1 cartoon with more horrible death" concept.

See, this doesn't work for me. If that's all it takes, EVERY Autobot should have all the powers and abilities and skills they want, whenever they want. After millions of years of war, if all it takes to make you into a super-soldier is to apply a software update, don't you think that would have happened long ago?  

Though the point is, Perceptor was already a sniper in terms of his abilities (if not his mentality)... read his G1 bio:

So, we can see that he's already got the equipment and ability... I think turning him into a "silent super-commando" was a step too far though. Also, I have to point out that SniPerceptor doesn't even USE his light cannon to snipe... he's carrying some kind of rifle instead. WTF?? Kind of stupid.

The thing with Thundercracker is that he still is utterly contemptuous of those he views as beneath him... ground-based Autobots, humans, etc... I like to think that Thundecracker's capacity for doubt and compassion are tempered by his pride and his role as a "good soldier". I feel like any shift towards the Autobots would be made very tentatively, and without necessarily fully embracing a total change in allegiance.

But whatever... I'm still interested to see where it goes in the Ongoing... though I'll confess, I HATED the last issue.

zmog

 

Furman was given the task of writing a new universe, a reimagining of generation 1 transformers using old characters in a new way, he was under no obligation to completely adhere to the characters in the Marvel bios and use them as the base for his crew as this isn't Marvel... Hell, even Marvel didn't use or even pay attention to a lot of the bios they created for most of their fiction so I don't see why it's an issue, frankly. It's nice when they are used, like in Thundercracker's case, or Furman's use of blackmailer Soundwave, but I don't see it as essential, I can't say I get upset when they're not strictly adhered to in all cases so long at the characters are written in an interesting way or if they open the possibility up for interesting stories, revelations or character evolution in the future.

Omitting Hound and having him used on another front as a tightarse commander leaves the door open for an interesting story to be told, how Hound arrives and falls in love with the planet, which is more interesting than having him there loving earth by default just because he was written as loving earth 25 years ago for a different continuity. He would have been lost in the shuffle if stationed alongside Wheeljack, Ratchet and Bumblebee, as he was in the cartoon, the marvel comic, the dreamwave comic (Which was a flat out marvel redux) as he was in AHM and as he has been in the ongoing. I saw the hardass Sgt. Hound bit as an act anyway (Hound written as someone who can keep his desires, keep his softer edge hidden behind a brave, fearless face in his original bio), something he needed to put on to keep loose cannons like Skram, Warpath, Road Rocket and Sideswipe in line otherwise he'd have been a doormat... Hmm, a bunch of characters previously known for being triggerhappy risktakers with little regard for those around them being kept away from places they can do damage, no attention to detail or character from Furman there.

As far as the Technobots not being a shock assault team goes, in the middle of a war it wouldn't make much sense for Autobot scientists to be out there investigating dead worlds alone as they'd be just waiting to be picked off by the enemy. The Technobots are all of above average intelligence, are able to work in a variety of terrains and are pretty good fighters to boot so it makes perfect sense.

Seriously, there's nothing wrong with Furman's character choices, in the roles he assigns, but his dialogue isn't his strongest point so it doesn't always come across particularly well. I still maintain a universe with Furman in an editorial role, controlling the direction of the universe with Roche, Mowry and McCarthy (I feel he could be decent with an actual editor there to rein him in, rather than a cheerleader) contributing ideas and doing the bulk of the writing would be utterly solid, the best version of G1 we'd ever see.

 

I'm snipping out most because it's too much.
The problem is mostly in the interpretation.

You're using one or two historical Ronins, which were more or less classified as the ones as you said, abandoned their code to wander. Whereas I'm talking of the ones who abandoned their masters who wanted them to do things against their code, or the ones who wander as good samaritans or for new found realization on life. Or the ones that have lost their master due to various causes(natural death, murder, etc.)
Your example of a backstabbing ronin would be like bludgeon, whereas the yang to bludgeon's yin as I said, is Drift.

There are more than 1 type of ronin.
Ronin simply means masterless. In history you'll find examples of those good, and those of the opposite spectrum, and everywhere in between. Some masterless Samurai reveled in the freedom to do as they please, to live by warfare, whereas others sought innerpeace, and respected the blade or wanted to attone for the lives they took. But yes, the bad ones got the most press. But isn't that true of everything? Bad press goes farther and lasts longer than good press. Many of the 'good' ones, you'll find their lineage changed from samurai to swordsmiths, but there are still those that wandered doing 'good' for others with their blade in tow, prefering not to draw it when they could avoid it, adhering to your "monk swordsman" comment. Though they weren't called monks back then for doing this. They simply were Ronin or Swordsman. The 'monk' aspect is just the modern way to quantify the differences, though even monk isn't quite right, as it assumes a form of prayer like religions, whether tibetan chanting, or otherwise. Since the various swordsmen in the past varied in this degree of religeous usage, very few having similiar, some having none, it's hard to really use monk to quantify this. They just are what they are, swordsman of varing moralistic values, just like in the old west you'd have gunslingers, sheriffs, bounty hunters, criminals, killers and so on, but they are still all gunslingers some with a badge, some not, some good, some not(having a badge not always meaning they are 'good' either). Yet when you hear gunslinger, what are the first 6 you think of? All bandits aren't they? Well unless you went towards annie oakley, and Wild Bill Hicock, but the same can be said of swordsmen. The most famous come to mind first, whether good or bad, and it's not until you really start going through the list do you see the differences between the types and of how many.

But to be fair, most of my comments about the ronin are more aptly applied to just wandering good samaritan like swordsmen, which included some ronin, some chinese swordsmen, and even those of european descent.

Then you also have the novel romanticized notion of Ronins and Chinese swordsmen that's been a big media thing over in asian cultures for the past 60 years. (honestly longer, but thereabouts is when the bulk of the last 30 years of films and dramas were adapted from novels, or remade. Like The Legendary Swordsman, and so on.)

The self discovery story archetype is pretty universal between these nations though. An 'evil' soldier, or of other moral ambiguity given a moment of enlightenment from exposure to something (what that is varies story to story), generally leading to a training regiment under a master, that leads to them forging a blade or blades of their own in the process of this new definition of self, and sometimes, though not always, carrying a relic sword that speaks of their past in memory of either their school/master/tribe/whatever the source of their enlightenment is, especially if it was subsequently destroyed. This is more or less where drift derives from in essence. Down to even having a Samurai/Ronin quote associated to him. Albeit, not the best hasbro choice, but the quickest to grab via google, instead of really trying to find a good and personality fitting one.

I'm just tired of seeing Ninja associated to drift, because it's the furthest thing to what he is, or represents. Like I said, think less Naruto, and more Samurai Champloo or Rurouni Kenshin when it comes to Drift. Or if you want a more modern example, to really get a feel for the swordsman archetype Drift represents, there's a sword master episode of Avatar that best explains it for newcomers. Granted Sokka is only going from inept, to useful with that, instead of evil to good. It also leaves out the basic 'school destroyed' scenario usually prevalent to what made this newly self discovered swordsman wander.

As for the 'good' ninjas, I was aware of their existence, but the training is also different, and lacking many of the defining steps to the 'enlightened' swordsman archetype, they have their own instead. The 'good' swordsman (since I'm going to have to clarify it seems lol) has a more reverence for the blade and what it represents in how they were taught. There's an ancient Japanese and Chinese proverb that speaks to this, though it escapes me at the moment. (When you don't sit in front of the info for over years, you don't tend to remember names, phrases, and dates that well anymore. xD) Something about drawing blood with the blade under dark intentions.


As for sunstreaker.
He's the vainest autobot isn't he? Why does it seem so far-fetched that he'd blame humanity for his feeling 'dirty' and 'unclean', and the loss of his 'perfection'.
Even if it was by what amounts to a group of 'evil humans lead by a decepticon'.
Even in human mentalities, this isn't rare at all. Grosse overgeneralizations misconstruing the few from the many due to an emotional situation that caused exceedingly high amounts of stress, pain, or turmoil. Is it irrational? Yes, but that's kinda the point to it. It's an irrational fear brought on by a circumstance or event. Like having a bad clown experience, so you blame all clowns.

 

No, but it IS G1. The original bios are G1. They are the original, primal, immutable pure form of G1. It may be a Marvel writer who originally invented it all, but I'm not even asking for adherence to the Marvel comics that came after... just acknowledgment of the original characters that are being used.

In that sense, YES... Furman is writing a G1 series, with G1 characters... so he IS obligated to follow that example. Read the fucking bios, do your damn research, and stick to the roots. Interpret from there, if you must. Build on that.

The issue I have with Furman is that, sure, you can retroactively justify all his choices... but the most blatantly obvious truth is that he just didn't know the material and/or couldn't be bothered to observe the source material. There are some cases where he very clearly demonstrates that he is re-interpreting a character (Galvatron, Arcee, etc)... but other times, it feels like he just didn't care.

Possibly, yes... I mean, the Earth team didn't get a lot of development in Infiltration(etc). I was just raising the point that rather than dumping all the top-ranked 1984 Autobot officers together onto one backwater planet, it would have made sense to put someone like Hound (as one example) into the mix, since he is a SCOUT and topographer by function, and having a strong romantic attachment to Earth and it's landscape has always been an aspect of his character... an aspect that's rather wasted if you never put him on Earth. Out of all the characters Furman had to play with, putting a dreamy wanderer like Hound into the drill sergeant role felt like a clear case of going with the most obvious cliches. "Here's a guy who turns into an army jeep... duh!"

It's like writing Prowl as a security/detective character just because he's a police car... it's lazy and it's stupid.

Hound has never been a gruff tough guy who keeps his soft side hidden. Don't see where you're getting that from the bio... though incidentally, that's supposed to be part of Ratchet's personality, and is something we NEVER see. Ratchet, from his Marvel days, right up till IDW, is painfully bland, despite all the attention lavished on him.

My point is that unless Furman actually demonstrated that he was portraying the character in that layered, meaningful, way, we have no reason to give him credit for doing so. Instead it just seems like another cardboard characterization.

Based on Furman's track record (and the fact that devil-may-care loose cannons make up roughly 2/3 of the entire Autobot population  ), I'm ready to chalk that one up to coincidence.

Just go read the profiles for the Technobots. They are not only emphatically NOT scientists... they are a bunch of twitchy, impatient, stubborn, volatile loose cannons, who have pretty much no business being in a research environment, let alone near delicate equipment. Their job is pretty much to blow shit up and shoot people.

Not only does Furman default to the most superficial cliche/misconceptions again ("Techno" is in their team name... they must be scientists, duh!), but he writes them as Jetfire's team of indistinguishable science gophers. If you're going to spotlight the Technobots, you might want to at least address the fact that most of the team is composed of gun-crazy macho barnstormers, insubordinates and paranoiacs.  

I believe that I've just demonstrated rather convincingly that there IS something wrong with his character choices... and a big part of why his dialog isn't very strong is that he substitutes conspicuous prolixity for characterization.

Another thing I've mentioned in the past... it's a minor thing, but it bugged me nonetheless. There are about three 1984 Autobots noted for having resilient, impenetrable or nigh-indestructible armour... one is Brawn, the other two are Ironhide and Sunstreaker. So of course, Furman picks two of the Bots MOST LIKELY to survive an ambush by humans, an explosion, or a conventional car crusher, and makes THEM the guys who are done in (or nearly) by just these things. Yes, it's a petty thing, but it's just one more example of why Furman doesn't choose his characters well. Or that, at the very least, he completely avoids any opportunity to demonstrate that he has any knowledge of those subtle quirks and traits that help define the characters he decides to use.

I cannot disagree with this. I'd LOVE to see that come to pass. I also notice that Costa didn't make your all-star cut. Bravo.  

zmog

 

Uh, no. I'm using THE actual historical reality that defined the status of "Ronin" and likely characterized Ronin samurai on the whole.

You seem to be working largely from a survey of romantic-fictional Ronin found in popular culture. Admittedly, considering that Transformers is itself a piece of fantastical heroic fiction, your approach is not exactly unwarranted. I'm just pointing out that if you're going to get technical about the definition and associations with the term "ninja", you should also be aware of the utter fabrication that is the romantic construction of the "Ronin" as hero.

I think you'll find that very few such samurai ever existed. "Samurai" means "servant", and feudal Japan is NOT an individualist culture, nor a particularly moral one. Japan was founded on a rigid set of ethics and protocols. The Samurai Code, as one finds in the "Bushido" or Hagakure, has almost nothing to do with a personal sense of right and wrong, but rather the utter sublimation of one's personal feelings in favour of obligation and service to one's feudal lord and the social contract.

I'm just pointing out that Drift is no more a "ronin" than he is a "ninja" because neither class/type actually has much claim to respectability.

However, in samurai pop culture, you do find a character type that resembles him... the "kenshi" type...the swordsman who seeks a pure path through the sword, to enlightenment, to personal excellence, to whatever... however "kenshi" are not "ronin" necessarily. Sometimes they are even commoners. This is why it's closer to the Chinese "Xia".

Actually "Ronin" literally means something much closer to "Drifter"... and that describes them better. Most Ronin were actually no better than licensed scum, mercenaries and thugs. Being of the Samurai class gave them certain rights above the common folk, but they would have been seen as no better than bandits and dangerous vagrants in most cases.

You keep saying things like "in history", but it sounds like your sources are more based on heroic fiction, than actual history. The "heroic" ronin is as much a myth as the "chivalrous knight"... which itself was largely a construct of early Renaissance romanticism, often based on middle-eastern influences imported after the Crusades. Real knights were nothing but professional killers, in a very literal sense.

Again, I suspect your comments owe more to fantasy than actual history. You don't seem to be understanding the samurai mindset. Killing was not bad. That was their JOB. A "true" samurai, who lived by the "code" considered himself metaphorically "dead". His life was meaningless, and with defeat or dishonor of his lord, a "true" samurai would have cut his own guts out.

Now obviously, many samurai were a bit too attached to their guts and probably had a stronger sense of self-preservation... maybe the doctrine/philosophy of servitude didn't quite take root in them, and they were the guys who didn't kill themselves. I think it's important to point out that this was FROWNED ON by their society, and would bring dishonor to your family line. Hence being a "Ronin" was pretty much the EXACT OPPOSITE of living the life of a "true samurai" according to the Bushido.

Again, monks are not always religious... in Japan especially, Zen Buddhism is actually quite different from religion in the usual sense. However, in China, the notion of moral rectitude is typically identified with itinerant monks (like Shaolin monks). Some of this is a bit biased however, since the Shaolin were also often supporters of anti-government rebels, so their exploits have also been whitewashed by folklore.  

Let's also be reminded that a lot of what we consider to be the romantic age of The West, with gunslingers, both heroes and desperadoes, is mostly bullshit. 99% of "gunslingers" were really nothing more than murderers who killed for sport, over gambling disputes, or for money. And that includes the ones who wore a badge.

Well, technically, Annie Oakley was a circus performer, and Bill Hickock was mostly famous for gambling and shooting people he didn't like. I don't think either one of them has any kinship with the "honorable" or "heroic" swordsman you're talking about.

See this is just it... Drift is a wandering "heroic" swordsman, who devotes himself to an almost monastic ideal of purity (no blasters, atonement, belonged to a secret order of neutrals). And in that sense, he fits the motif of the literary martial-arts hero.

However, this discussion did sort of spin off into a discussion of what it meant to be a "ronin", and I think this is where I disagree. I feel that you are conflating reality with idealized visions of the past that really have no basis in fact. It's all romantic embellishment that was added to the folklore long afterward.

An interesting exercise is to look back on the heroic myths of different cultures and see how those figures who are viewed as "heroes" are really little more than "anti-heroes" by modern standards... at best! Greek heroes like Hercules was little more than drunken brute and rapist, and the noble "Xia" of the Romance of Three Kingdoms actually spend a surprising amount of time murdering and betraying each other. And yet, as the years go by, their stories become more and more sanitized, until we have something that in no way represents the true lifestyles of those historical warriors.

Again, using the term "ninja" is really just a shorthand. I realize that "real" Ninjas are not really the same deal (though Actually, we haven't really seen enough of Drift to even fairly judge whether he is more "ninja" or "ronin"... or some kind of blend of both. That's the funniest part.  

Naruto is kind of an absurd image of ninja culture, especially in that it presents a world where there are no "samurai" that represent the societal alternative to "ninja". Kenshin is flat-out fantasy, and Samurai Champloo is a ridiculous culture jam of street style and chanbara fiction cliches. Not exactly the best sources for historical reference points. Incidentally, Mugen in Champloo technically isn't a "ronin". He's a commoner, a criminal and an ainu. Jin is technically Ronin, though.

The "destroyed school" isn't really that common in real Chinese Wuxia fiction, which is mostly what Sokka's training and master are based on, rather than a "samurai" corollary. Clan/school affiliations are more akin to secret societies than dojos.

Of course, there are also many archetypes of the "heroic" ninja to be found in heroic historical fiction... Hanzo Hattori, Ishikawa Goemon, Jubei Yagyu (though the latter was a samurai as well), etc... and yeah, the "path" is different. But "enlightened swordsman" archetype that you're speaking of is more of a modern invention than you may think.

Speaking of "history", one has to remember that most of the philosophizing and formality surrounding swordplay, the "way of the sword", and the Bushido, came during a relatively peaceful period of Japanese history when Samurai were a perfumed ruling class, and most of them had never been to war, or had to actually kill someone in their own defense. It's easy to reflect on the spiritual, aesthetic and metaphysical aspects of fighting when you aren't facing the hard, dirty realities of actually staying alive by whatever means necessary. Looking at the warriors and martial philosophers who have truly stood the test of time, like Sun Tzu or Miyamoto Mushashi, you'll notice that they speak little of esoteric purities. Instead it boils down to win by whatever means necessary, even fighting dirty... by sword, by gun, by stick or by trick.

Heck, even Bruce Lee said "If you want to kill somebody, get a gun!"  

I agree... but the cause and effect are disproportionate. I could totally see him being psychologically damaged and bitter about his ordeal, but I wasn't convinced it would lead him to do something as stupid as basically destroying his entire faction, just to "punish" humanity.

zmog

 

I'm sorry, but the Marvel bios do not automatically apply to an all new universe, sticking rigidly to them until the end of time will deprive us of a lot of interesting stories and condemning Furman for ignoring them when even Budiansky, who wrote them, largely ignored them is just wrong. You don't like his writing style, fine, but to single him out for 'lack of research' considering he's written an all new universe is misguided. He wasn't the first not to strictly adhere to the the letter of the marvel bios and he won't be the last.

Budiansky wrote the technobots as such triggerhappy warriors, they chose to flee the war to and hide out on nebulos with Fortress Maximus' crew then do next to nothing until they were blown up by Starscream. I have read the bios and Lightspeed is a data processor so completely a warrior, yeah. My point was that the technobots were Autobots of above average intelligence (see the Budiansky penned tech specs) who were assigned to assist and likely protect Jetfire and were never shown doing anything particularly scientific, well, no more than any other Autobot, just assisting, fighting and helping him with the Monstructor Six, so yeah... I don't see any reason why it's so beyond the realm of possibilities that a team consisting of gun crazy, an overly cautious miner, a twitchy trigger happy nut, someone with anger issues and a data processor are out of place in the role Furman put them in, protecting Jetfire away from the front lines or places where where subtlety or stealth is needed and you're just nitpicking as you don't like his writing. Their job seemed to be to help Jetfire and to shoot people, but like Hound's unit, they were kept away from places they would do more harm than good, but I'm sure you'll claim that's purely coincidental too.

As far as Hound evolving goes, we'll never know what Furman had in mind for him because he was cut off at the knees, but again, you haven't shown me anything that proves Sgt. Hound is unreasonable characterisation or anything beyond that you feel that Furman doesn't know g1 characters and anything that points to the contrary is purely coincidental or retconing, I'll also say that Furman's use of him is far more preferable than having him appear just to fill out crowd scenes because he was a part of the season 1 cast. I can't argue that Hound wouldn't have been a good fit on earth, and there's no good reason he shouldn't have been used instead of, say, Jazz who was pretty lost in the crowd, but had Jazz been left out, you know people would have complained about it just as much as he's a 'core' character who's an earth culture junkie who's skilled at blending into new worlds, so it's damned if you do and damned if you don't.

As for choosing Sunstreaker, he chose the bot most likely to survive an ambush, you know, because he did. The Machination were shown to use electrical weapons which were able to incapacitate Autobots without blowing holes through their armour which was what they used to down ol' Sunny before blowing up the decoy. Ironhide also survived an explosion and was knocked out, not destroyed, knocked out. I don't care for Transformers being portrayed as nigh on invunerable, so yeah, I feel a car crusher would rightly do a number on Ironhide, who was written to a T by Furman as he was 'never the sort who likes to be told what to do, (as) he prefers action to words' whose 'gruff exterior hides his kind inner soul; his concern for the protection of life'.

His dialogue may be is weak, but I feel every character Furman used in a prominent role IDW's G1 run was used in the role assigned for a reason, I don't get that feeling from anyone who's followed him on the main title, the current motivation for using characters seems to be because they appeared in the cartoon which is far more shallow than any accusation you can level at Furman. It's just a shame that his overexposure and his often weak dialogue concealed most of the characters subtleties during his run, there should have been more open tension between Sunstreaker and Hunter during Maximum Dinobots, for example, which would have been a far better read with Roche, Roberts or McCarthy handling the dialogue, but it's done now.

Costa... Ugh, Costa. Andy Schmidt says he has plans for the next 4 years of Transformers comics with Costa at the helm, I get thew feeling that it'll turn out to be a years worth of comics spread out over that time with chunks of the plot pinched from the cartoon with horrible, horrible G.I. Spike on center stage. At least with McCarthy's work, I care enough to get angry, Costa's stuff just leaves me cold and rather bored as they're a 2 minute read that I'm left with little desire to go back and reread as most plot twists can be seen from cybertron and rely on the Autobots being idiots.

 

I'm pretty sure that no fiction has ever actually characterized the Technobots by their profiles. In fact, they've barely been used at all. A few scant appearances in the Marvel comics and Season 3, and a supporting role in Headmasters where the individual members never got any characterization? And, when they were used in Season 3, they generally WERE treated as scientists, just as Stormbringer used them. Sometimes the public view shapes what something becomes and the profiles ends up being irrelevant.

 

That's true. The toy bios may have described the character traits back then, but that doesn't mean who or what X character will always stay static. Stories and characterizations get tweaked over the years, just like other works of fiction.

Sometimes it's circumstances beyond the creative team's control that may have led them to disregard the toy bios as source material. Death couldn't be shown during the Sunbow cartoon's run, so people who never read Ironhide's bio wouldn't realize he was supposed to be nigh-indestructible, because they didn't show Transformers dying till the Movie. It didn't help that Ironhide was probably one of the first Autobots in the cartoon that was shown getting repaired by Ratchet -.-

 

It's NOT a "new" universe. It's a re-interpreted version of an old Universe. IDW is just one more variation on G1, and works with the same cast. I think if you're going to work with the G1 universe, that's one of the rules... you should work with the characters. To be fair, it's one thing to populate a story with a backdrop of players who don't have much to do. That's sort of a necessity when you're dealing with a fiction with so many named characters. But when you do so, you should also take care that you aren't overlooking character details when it's significant, or portraying them flat-out badly.

True, but now we have a precedent, and we have more fans who are involved in the making of the fiction. There's less of an excuse for that kind of sloppiness, and yes... it's a challenge writing for a bunch of pre-existing characters, but there it is.

And it's not an "all new universe"... not even close. It's totally G1. If you're going to do a new take on a character, fine... but you've got to have a good reason for throwing out the previous version of the character, and demonstrate that you aren't doing so ignorantly.

You keep suggesting that referencing the original bios more often in his characterizations would somehow limit his imagination, or make a story less "interesting"... but so far I haven't seen that. In Furman's case, he does often re-interpret some characters from the ground up in order to re-invent them in a new way... but what's less forgivable is the way he very casually uses other characters in ways that demonstrate that he didn't even bother checking to see who they were really supposed to be. In short, more often he makes the characters and stories that involve them LESS interesting as a result.

Again, the example you cite is a poor use of character and more simply a requirement of Hasbro to introduce year's new characters in comic-book form ASAP. Contemporary TF comics are under no such obligations, and more, are written for an audience of mostly adult fans, not kids Hasbro is trying to sell toys to. I think we can safely fairly more attention to detail now.

And yes, I'm glad you've finally read the bios. Lightspeed is the exception among the Technobots, so when characterizing the team I don't think he's a big factor. Arguably Nosecone isn't much of a psycho, though he is stubborn and insular, his function is "assault" and his job is basically just to put big holes in things.  

No, it's things like that which are PRECISELY WHY I don't like his writing for Transformers. The Technobots were window dressing, essentially... nothing more. Their role could have been filled by ANY other 5 Autobots, and probably better. Furman showed no indication of their true personalities or addressed why they were there (though you have been explaining it for yourself... too bad the writer didn't). He quite clearly just put them there because the team name was "Technobot" and propagated the misconception that they're a science team, and didn't go any further than that.

Normally you put people who are good at shooting people, where there are people that need shooting. Frontline soldiers go to the frontline. According to your backwards logic, the Wreckers should start doing geological surveys and the Dinobots should be moved to the diplomatic service.  

Furman's characters rarely evolve... especially if they're marginalized scene-fillers... so I think you're falling into the trap of giving a writer credit for things that we have no reason to believe he was ever going to do. Sgt. Hound isn't an unreasonable portrayal... it's just a weak one.

To take the focus off Furman for a minute, there's a similar character flub in the early parts of All Hail Megatron (2nd issue?) where Wheeljack and Bumblebee are scouting the local area on Cybertron. Bumblebee is berating himself for taking a turn too hard and skidding out, and then grumbles because Wheeljack is fussing and whining like an effete lab technician on an outing... it's just a tiny little exchange, but it completely misses that Wheeljack may be an engineer, but he's also a reckless daredevil and supposedly the best, most insane driver among the Autobots. He's not the type who would be squeamish, nor the type who would need to be told to "man up" by Bumblebee of all people.

Does it affect the story? Nope. Is it important? Nope. But it does show that McCarthy just completely flubbed Wheeljack's character, and it is distracting if you're a fan who knows the characters. On the other hand... there's one moment in Infiltration, when Wheeljack and Hot Rod are out to rescue Ironhide from the dreaded car crusher, and Hot Rod takes note of Wheeljack's tricky driving (something about "you seem quiet, but you have dangerous curves don't you?", which almost sounds like an entry point for a slash fiction, doesn't it?  ). It wasn't exactly a shining Wheeljack moment or anything, but it did surprise me because Furman doesn't normally demonstrate that kind of observation with his characterizations. It was a rare treat.

The Hound thing is just a small thing, really... and more tied to the fact that Furman could have mixed up the Earth team a bit more. But I'd rather have a character sitting inoffensively in the background, where he can come forward and shine whenver needed... than have a character be used in a way that doesn't seem to fit them.

I'll qualify all of what I'm saying with a (probably obvious) observation... I read TF comics for the characters, not the stories. The stories just aren't that good, sadlly, so the characters are the real draw. As a kid growing up with my TFs, I could make my own stories, but my starting point was always those character bios. That's what it's about for me. That's what makes me a happy fan... not overblown space epics or full-scale Earth invasions. I would be entertained by reading TF comics where not much happens, but the Bots and Cons just got to interact and be themselves... which is part of why I'm less critical of AHM than most, and why I LOVE what Nick Roche has been doing as a writer. I realize that's not everybody's thing though...

Is it? I don't remember that bit. Or are we just assuming that's what they did?

Admittedly, Ironhide is not really a hard character to write, since he's been so prominently portrayed in the media, and already has a strong archetypical personality.  

But yeah, he survived the explosion next to him, but was completely incapacitated, and then the Machination were going to dispose of him in a junkyard??? Really?? Trithyllium-steel alloy impregnated with irradiated carbon fibers, most nearly invulnerable Autobot... I thought you were made of sterner stuff, Ironhide.  

HE concealed most of the characters subtleties. HE did it, with bad writing and poor character usage! You keep apologizing for him, as if weird external factors and "overexposure" were what kept him from being a better writer, but the fact of the matter is that he should have been a better writer!!  

Agreed. There are rare moments of quality in Costa's work, but they are all almost always immediately obscured by a layer of shite. I am getting more and more dissatisfied with his work, and this latest issue of Spike Witwicky:Robot Fighter pissed me off tremendously... especially considering he lifted an entire fight scene directly from Mark Millar's ULTIMATES, right down to the small details.  

zmog