Imagine you live you're whole life as a normal, nice, non violent guy who never even fired a weapon. Then one day later, you're on the run mowing down policemen, because that's effectively what happens in this film.

Particulally in the battle scene after Starscream's lair.. they are abosutely mowing these guys down. They are living cybertronians the same as them.
There is a scene where Optimus, the man of peace, freedom for alll jumps up and tears one of the fliers apart for the crime of doing his job.
Autobots killing in combat is normal and fine, but these are not autobots they are civillians. They do not have the mental to do this. It makes no sense. Nor they have the skill to do this, they've had access to weapons for all of five minutes and they're doing these insane tricks, flips and shots. Never fired a gun in their lives by the way.
Sentinel should have the best warriors in the business at his disposal but they are torn apart by total and utter amateurs.
It's lazy writing ignoring logic for the sack of 'we want cool action scene in movie' with no regard of who's doing them and if it makes sense.

and there's the moral issue that this film never bothers to touch at any point.
Murder is an extreme step for someone to take even if they are trying to capture you.. even firing a single shot at these guys should result in serious self doubt and introspection. It should be a huge moment for all these characters but instead it's just glossed over as if it's normal. They want their cake and to eat it, they want to do a humble miner origin but at the same time have flashy super robot fights.

In IDW Megatron takes up a weapon in self defence and accidently kills his mentor.. it's a huge moment for the character and his future. He doesn't just start doing backflips slaughtering everyone. It starts with that one moment where he chooses violence and grows from there. In this film, his first kill is the rando guy after exop dump and he just laughs it off like a psycho.
But Prime even taking part in all this, possibly with even more onscreen kills than Megatron, is total assasination of the character.

 

Your first points were fair criticism, it was also a thought I had, but frankly it’s just a bit of suspension of disbelief, which should come a bit naturally considering the franchise.

As for your other points, I mean, it’s self defense every time. It’s only murder when Megatron kills Sentinel, which was the entire point. It was an execution. In the legal system, it is not murder if I shoot and kill an individual that is literally pointing two guns at my face and about to pull the triggers. Also bear in mind they are killing vehicon drones, these were not other cybertronian citizens with full sentience. I do think the film should’ve briefly introduced and explained these vehicons, but I guess it wasn’t really that important cause, well, they’re just meant to be fodder and the film knows that.

Also, keep in mind the bots were made much more powerful once given the Primes’ cogs. In the background of some fight scenes, you can clearly see various Seekers almost struggling to kill a single vehicon. Our core cast were very strong on purpose.

Yes.. almost like that was the point..

Megatron wanted to kill everyone involved with Sentinel, whereas the others just wanted to return to Iacon and tell the public the truth. They end up fighting because they have to, in order to save D-16, Bee, and the others that were captured. Had there been a way to do it non violently, given the nature of Orion/Prime in this film, I think he would’ve opted for that instead.

Did the entire Seeker hideout scene go over your head? The sheer look of terror from Elita and Bee as D-16 fights Starscream? And then Orion’s face when he sees the aggression and tyranny practically pouring out of his best friend?

This is just absurd. What did you want Prime to do? Do you want him to be a pacifist and never kill a single soul, sentient or not? I’m sorry but what kind of complaint is this. Did you just miss the entire character arc he had as well as his moral compass at the end of the film?

 

Congrats on getting the first thinkpiece thread on this film out that ive seen!

One of the first questions I asked some friends who went to the preview screening with me when it was finished was "so... The vehicon-looking guys, were they drones or like... People? If they were sentient the good guys sure did tear a lot of them apart..."

There's a pretty clear shift (though we could argue about how intentional it is) in the action moving from the race sequence into when things become more combat-focused (when the mecha-deer gets vaporized is a pretty sharp 'stuff is real now' moment), and I figure it's an attempt to build some visual spectacle as well as to tap into the energy of the mayhem of the bay films. It felt like it went a bit far for me, though I did like the choreography a lot, and I guess you can go a lot farther inflicting damage on mechanoids than flesh and blood humans. That might be a second line of discussion here, are the implications of violence different in terms of storytelling, as well as in-universe, for a species that can lose parts and replace them, where reformatting and stasis lock are possible, etc. Cutting someone into pieces, or tearing them in half barehanded is much more graphic and shocking for people compared to just "simply" shooting them, but is that still true for Cybertronians (especially in their society)?

In terms of competency, I agree with you that the heroes go from zeros to John Woo heroes more or less on a dime. It didn't even register for me for Elita, who's shown as hypercompetent throughout the film, and bumblebee has a few moments of figuring his stuff out before he's a little ninja knife gremlin - for pax and D16 you're right, it rings a little false - though I'd say the film moves so quickly there isn't really enough time to think about it. Maybe it's another gift of the tcogs from heroic donors, but I really don't like the implications of that. In the end you're right that sentinel's enforcers are getting utterly chumped by people who were nobodies the day before - unrealistic, but not exactly uncommon in Hollywood. I'd agree it's a bit lazy wrt writing, but I'd also be willing to give a bit of a pass due to the pacing/length of the film, and because it's in service of the satisfying action sequences without taking most of us TOO much out of the moment.

Other than in a few exceptions, the main cast are in clear and present danger from their opponents, I don't think their response, even a lethal one, is too far out of bounds. I get where you're coming from wrt hesitation, and the moral implications afterwards of being surrounded by a pile of dead trackers, but that's sort of the same film tropeyness as their skills - unfortunately moral quandaries are reserved only for characters with lines in TF:One and everyone else is cannon fodder.

 

What are your thoughts on him saying Prime killing in this film was an assassination of the character? I found that to be ridiculous, as it implies Prime can or should never kill.

 

I don't think I'd go as far as saying it's a character assassination, if only because that implies intent on the part of the writers. Maybe it's rude of me but I'd be willing to attribute issues with writing the character to incompetence, rather than malice.

Do I think Optimus should be a pacifist and never kill? No. I think maybe Pax should be, but this Pax doesn't show that, or much in the way of gentleness at all (though he does show care for his friends and a sort of nationalistic love for Cyberton and the Autobots). As I mentioned in my previous post, the trackers (and later D16) are trying to kill him when he's in combat, and I don't think it's unreasonable for him to defend himself, though I would have liked to see him try to pull his punches a bit more and spare more of his opponents. He does put his own safety in jeopardy to spare Sentinel, but I can't think of other 'selfless' acts he does in the film (does he step in front to shield bee or Elita from someone else at some point? I can't recall). He helps D16 a few times during the race at the risk to his own progress/safety but thats a very different situation, with very different stakes.

Even if I don't completely agree with Duskscream, I think they're making some good points, and I think it IS a sign of poor writing and the continued addiction of the franchise movies to ultraviolence for the noble hero to plead D16 not to tear Sentinel in half... Moments after Pax tore a different guy in half (albeit in combat). It might not be Murder in the same way as executing a clearly defeated enemy (wouldn't be the first time that's happened, either), but talking about how we can't start the rebuild of Iacon with a murder (or whatever the line is) while surrounded by the brutalized corpses of the enforcers of the old status quo is definitely SOME kind of tonal dissonance.

 

Yes, he does. When the seeker hideout is attacked he jumps in front of Elita when they shoot at her.

As for your other points regarding Orion stepping in front of sentinel despite blowing up vehicons- I just simply disagree here, and I think it’s missing the point. Orion isn’t literally trying to save sentinel, he’s trying to save D16. He literally states the future of Cybertron can’t begin with an execution. And again, him killing vehicons is literally fine.. it’s self defense! I’m not sure what’s with this complaint frankly.

But it was self defense. They are actively trying to kill him. The entire point is sentinel was clearly defeated, hence why they shouldn’t just flat out murder him! That is quite literally what the real life law is for us too! If someone no longer poses a threat, you’re not supposed to still kill them. Sure, Orion and the others bring the fight to sentinel, but what else could they have done? Sentinel was going to murder D16, bee, and the other captives! Then the vehicons and Airachnid all attack and try to kill them.

Did yall really wanna see Orion running around shooting the vehicons in the leg or arm only? Where were these complaints for the bumblebee movie where he’s flat out killing Seekers?

The “albeit in combat” line literally invalidates your entire point there. One is murder and one is not, period. Also you’re kind of exaggerating Orion’s violence here. He only tears one vehicon in half because he had to. He didn’t have a weapon, therefore he used his transformation as one. Are we.. gonna complain about that? The other kills were normal blaster kills.

 

I find these types of discussions interesting, because they talk about something that has been happening for almost 40 years. Apparently it is very bad and horrible for a character in the role of a villain to murder someone, whether in combat or not, but if the person who is murdering someone is a hero, it is a cool sequence and should have heroic music. The same thing happens when a segment of the fandom doesn't like a fiction and they say "oh, look at that character dismembering his enemies, he's a monster" but when the one who does exactly the same thing is a character from the fiction they like, they say "Oh well, but there was no alternative, what did you expect him to do?"
As a writer, I can say that in an audiovisual medium there are many tricks to encourage the audience to think these things unconsciously, such as using a certain color palette, music and sound effects, in addition to putting certain characters in the role of " I had to do it because he/she made me." Personally, I find it much more interesting when the characters' actions are put to the test under a critical eye and expose the audience to decide who to condone and who to condemn, but in a family film like this, that is unlikely to happen.

 

I see this problem with a lot of properties.

Take Star Wars, the worst offender. Luke Skywalker can't bring himself to kill Darth Vader because he's "a Jedi", but had no problem blowing up the Death Star or chopping up hundreds of nameless minions who likely had families to support.

Rey couldn't bring herself to kill Kylo Ren despite having watched the First Order destroy whole planets, and watching Kylo murder his own father, and failing to convince him to stop the assault on the defenseless escape pods. She not only failed to kill him, she kissed him in the next movie, after he tried to kill her (multiple times). But she had absolutely no problem blasting and slicing through minions who were likely victim of human trafficking. Like... wtf.

 

Are we all missing the point of Orion and the others only killing in self defense but Megatron EXPLICITLY going too far by killing a defenseless Sentinel? Did yall even watch the movie??? Am I going crazy here?

I need some second opinions here cause idk if I’m tripping or not @JS_Prime

So let me get this straight @Aernaroth , the issue here is the fact that the movie is okay with Orion and co. killing the vehicons but it’s suddenly a problem when Megatron wants to kill Sentinel? Am I misunderstanding? By all means say I’m illiterate and just not reading correctly here if that’s the case lol cause I honestly am not sure why this is an issue.

 

I don't have time right now to respond to your other post but... Yeah, maybe you are if you can't conceive of how other people might not think the same as you?

"But it's self defense!" doesn't wipe the slate clean. It's an extenuating circumstance, a justification, something we bring up to make taking another person's life more morally or legally acceptable, but it's still killing someone. We can talk about having no other choice in the moment, and that a person has a right to protect their own life, even if it means taking the life of the person threatening it to do so, but that doesn't make killing an ok thing. It still says something about the writing to put the main character in that position and not really acknowledge it.

 

I used chatgpt to dissect your argument and see if I’m crazy or not and it brought up great points.

I think the key to all this is the fact that they only fought and killed vehicon drones. Yes, the movie should’ve absolutely brought this up. Could’ve easily had a line or two where the group discusses who exactly they’re fighting and whether they’re sentient beings or just drones, but oh well. I think the fact that the others clearly act in shock and fear when D16 fights Starscream is because they’re not sure if they’re about to witness actual cybertronian death for the first time. And also cause they’re witnessing D16 be violent.

Also, clearly that just wasn’t a part of the movie Cooley and co. wanted to dissect? So that means it’s bad writing? It would’ve been bad writing if Orion did straight up murder any defenseless vehicon, or bot, and still judge Megatron for doing the same. But.. that’s not the case. Perhaps it was enough showing them only kill in self defense, but again, since they were vehicons, there’s really no point in stopping and going “oh God what have I done” just cause you killed a random fodder bot. This Orion was shown to be more wild and anti-authority from the opening scene. It’s not too far fetched to think he’d have no problem killing with style, given the character that was set up from the literal first frames of the movie.

 

THANK YOU!! This guy gets it! Practically his entire argument are my exact same thoughts @Aernaroth

 

The point here is: When the hero kills someone (no matter who or under what circumstance), the next thing he does is move on as if nothing had happened, a sort of "ok, lets go for more adventures, rise and shine?" Because if so, there are two options: Either the character is written with very little depth, or he is closer to being the next psychopath who wants to take over the world than to being a hero. Murdering someone, under whatever circumstance, should cause something in you, an initial shock, trauma, anger, guilt, and many other things, because it is assumed that as an individual, you understand that what you did is something too strong, even whether you did it in self-defense or to protect someone you love.

 

Killing in self-defense, in the middle of combat, is a bit different from extrajudicial execution of a defeated combatant/non-combatant.

Although it's a bit ambiguous what the situation even is with Sentinel's troopers.
Are those guys actual bots? Or are they classic Vehicons -- mass produced drone units without autonomy or sense of self?
And by that token, with Airachnid as their commander, was she the "Vehicon General?" Otherwise known as the only one with any autonomy?

One of them does talk. It orders Alpha Trion to, and I quote, "Stand down, old timer."
But unlike the regular, common bots, the voice sounds completely synthetic. But the movie never tells the viewer what they are, so it's hard to make any judgement one way or the other about them.

 

I see your point. People get it in their head that self defense that ends in death is the only option when you are met with a risk of mortal peril, but that's just not really true, even in real life.

There are plenty of people whose moral or religious convictions stop them from acting violently in self defense, and even more who would seek non-lethal means if given the opportunity. That's because many people hold something as being more valuable than survival, which I think ranges from noble to naive, depending on the circumstance. Most people wouldn't kill if given the choice and would prefer to leave active threat using different means if possible.

The only mitigating factor I can identify is that the vehicons are an active threat while Sentinel was defeated and requesting mercy. Killing them ended a present threat, while Sentinel could have been incarcerated.

Regardless of that, a life still ends for a person. A lot of people who kill in self defense find little solace in the fact that they were under active threat. Killing is just a jarring thing to do, regardless of the circumstance. I do find it a bit odd that our main characters went from normal dudes to ripping guys apart, but I suppose the movie only had so long to run.

Even our favorite G1 robot dad decided enough was enough in the 86 movie and just started blasting fools on lethal. I suppose Prime is a bit of a "so much and no more" kind of guy. He'll pull punches, but only to a certain point. Then it's castle doctrine and everyone is getting a lead tictac. Not sure what that says about him, but he certainly appears to be okay with some light killing, punctuated by some regal mercy on occasion. After all, mercy IS what did him in back in 86.

 

My problem is they make Sentinel Prime Ted Bundy.

The whole problem with killing Sentinel Prime makes more sense if his particularly atrocities were spaced out of a lot of people. Like he and the Cybertronian elites all were in on this. That's never implied. In fact the opposite, that Prime lied to even the Aerialbots and Chromia who were in the race - Transformers who might not have gone along with his plan (or if you're a fan you assume didn't because they become Autobots in the future). But that's not what happened. Only Sentinel and Arachnid seemed to understand what was going on.

What Sentinel Prime was doing was basically the equivalent of chopping off legs of infants and then telling them some humans are born without legs and making them work in the mines. Like it's bad, bad. But because the movie is so silly at times it has trouble sticking the landing on that.

An interesting comparison is the way X-Men '97 handled the Bastion ending. They spent a good amount of time showing how Bastion was sympathetic. How his mother lied to him too, so when Cyclops' spares him and gives him that speech you understand why he isn't killing him. In Transformers One it just comes off like Optimus Prime is squeamish about murder[ing non-Vehicons].

The movie kind of rip offs the Xavier/Magneto dynamic. I think what really fails there is nowadays Magneto is widely regarded as the correct one, and Xavier has been outted as a jerk. This is, of course, because that dynamic developed before a lot of the head cannon that Xavier is MLK and Magneto is Malcolm X started. The reality is Xavier, the way he is written, is elitist and out of touch - and a massive hypocrite. More like a guy with a white savior complex. Magneto is actually written closer to an edgy MLK. So when you use that dynamic and attach Prime's old school John Wayne persona to that (rather than the philosopher Xavier) he comes off like a few IQ points higher version of jerkass Homer Simpson (who himself was a satire of mediocre men raised on John Wayne).

The movie suffers really from not developing either Sentinel Prime or Optimus Prime/Orion Pax. They have no relationship so there's no emotional reason for him to save Sentinel Prime like that. It actually would have been better if Orion Pax froze and did not stop Megatron from murdering Sentinel - and attacked him after, and then got the Matrix. The freezing up would have shown he's not the Optimus Prime he would become yet, and the lashing out at his friend would show his visceral reaction to seeing an execution. But they don't do that. They never really go into why Orion Pax is curious about the Matrix, history, where he gets his morals from, etc. so when he goes to stop Sentinel Prime's death at the end it just rings hollow.

 

My point wasn't that heros having to kill mass numbers of enemies is bad, my point was that those minions weren't typically granted the same mercy the big bads got. I never saw Rey going back to heal anyone else she cut/stabbed/shot.

 

I'd argue the discussion here is why moms aren't taking their kids to see a "family-friendly" Transformers movie.

 

This is a solid point. I found it strange that they were present for the energon hand-off, especially if they are actual living people with free will. Seems like a massive risk to bring them with you.

Regardless, I do think they are supposed to be alive. While I find it possible Sentinel programmed them to have a sense of dark humor, "Stand down, old timer" seems decidedly too alive to be not alive. And if a drone can taunt like that, I suppose the "aliveness" of our other robot friends should be in question as well...

 

I don't think stuff like this impacts viewership too much. They've had like a billion transformers movies at this point that do a lot worse than kill people. Plus, have you been out and about? People are pretty vengeful. The contingent that is concerned about desensitization to violence has been pretty absent from most circles I have interacted with. Years of Marvel movies and the strange framing of modern conflicts have really given people an appetite for sanitized, justified, "soft violence".