Super 7: Super Shogun Optimus Prime

Discussion in 'Transformers News and Rumors' started by Slender102, Feb 18, 2020.

  1. CatalogDave

    CatalogDave Well-Known Member

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    100% buy for me. Can’t wait!
     
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  2. AzT

    AzT Moderator News Staff TFW2005 Supporter

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  3. Charlock

    Charlock Lighten Up, Francis.

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    That sure is a thing they did.
     
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  4. Predaking000

    Predaking000 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, it's funny seeing minds blown and the weirdly rage-filled posts whenever someone introduces a toy that doesn't fit into the MP/Generations mold.

    This is an homage to the Jumbo Machinder line and isn't made with articulation or modern sculpting in mind. It's an unapologetically vintage-styled figure. Flynn is an avowed vintage Japanese toy nerd.

    I'm no big fan of S7 (mainly disappointed with their quality/QC across a number of products) or Jumbos (didn't want to fall down the rabbit hole of vintage toys that regularly sell for thousands of dollars), but I can at least appreciate/understand what they're going for, and the toy history behind it.

    To me, a bookshelf stuffed with cheapie $20-$30 Generations figs can easily add up to more than $350, but would be worth considerably less to me. Just not my thing--the light-feeling plastic and frequently wonky fit/finish--though I realize what Hasbro's going for, and why it appeals to a lot of fans.

    It's why I don't look at a Chevy Bolt and lament the fact that it's not a Maserati, or vice-versa. Cuz, you know, they're two completely different things intended for two completely different audiences.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2021
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  5. artiepants

    artiepants Transformers '84!!!

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    How many underdetailed badly-proportioned non-transforming Transformers can one company make?

    the grill and “cell shading” on the windows on this guy are just embarrassing.

    you know what I want, is a company doing this sort of thing, but instead of bland, badly portioned Sunbow lameness, let’s see some dynamic, awesomely-proportioned Studio Ox-inspired radness.
     
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  6. TenScaryMonkeys

    TenScaryMonkeys Can You Believe How Great These Pants Look?

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    For $350, I can buy an actual, original Shogun Warrior that’s been discontinued for 40 years.

    This thing is very cool. I love its aesthetic and philosophy. And there is absolutely no way I would consider buying it at anything even vaguely approximating that price.
     
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  7. Charlock

    Charlock Lighten Up, Francis.

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    I feel like Super7 has no clue how to price their products, even before you take into consideration the inevitable QC and production issues associated with them.
     
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  8. Predaking000

    Predaking000 Well-Known Member

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    Their Ultimates figures have been sellouts so far, despite fan complaints about pricing and quality (complaints that I agree with). I don't know their numbers, but if I had to take a guess, I'd guess they're doing okay, especially given how they're snapping up licenses left and right.

    A company's products are profitable across a varying range. A Jumbo Prime might be less of a moneymaker with an even more niche audience, but the Ultimates figures might help to offset that and more. One thing S7 has done well is diversify, in terms of types of products and brands.

    Just because you don't like the way a product is priced doesn't mean that the company's not gonna make money off of it.

    Their products also tend to attract more middle-aged collectors, who tend to have more disposable income.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2021
  9. Charlock

    Charlock Lighten Up, Francis.

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    I don't recall saying they weren't going to make money. Can you show me where I said that?

    My opinion is that their pricing strategy is misguided. Just because something sells out doesn't mean it's priced appropriately, either. Anything in a limited run has a much better chance at selling out than, say something produced at a much larger scale and stocked at large chain stores.
     
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  10. Predaking000

    Predaking000 Well-Known Member

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    Okay, so why would it be "misguided" (from the company's POV) if it's profitable? Why would they be "clueless" in their pricing if they're making money? A company exists to make money.

    Misguided because you don't want to pay the price, sure. But that's a different issue altogether.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2021
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  11. Charlock

    Charlock Lighten Up, Francis.

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    Misguided as in not in line with competitive products within the same market.

    You can have your opinions and word them however you like to make assertions, but they're still just opinions. From my experience with their products and from watching numerous reviews on them, they're overpriced in comparison to similar items of better quality.

    I don't think their products are worth their price, so I don't buy them. Period.

    I don't fit the niche interest group for the particular product in this thread, so I won't buy it either. I will be curious to find out if those that do buy it find it worth the cost, though. I'll also be interested in knowing f the production value is any higher than Super7's other offerings. I really hope they can improve upon themselves.

    Edit: Tablet doesn't like the word "if."
     
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  12. Predaking000

    Predaking000 Well-Known Member

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    What other company is making two-foot-tall original Jumbo Machinder tribute figures (the subject of this particular thread)?

    I collect a lot of retro vinyl figures from Japan. The pricing is in line with that of retro-esque specialty products, not to mention urban vinyl figures (S7 has also always produced higher-priced vinyl).

    In fact, I just saw the news regarding an upcoming jumbo-sized vinyl Leopardon. You know how much Medicom's asking for this big hollow robot? About $700. Just to, you know, compare apples to apples.

    Leopardon.jpg

    As you yourself said, S7's products are made in smaller numbers than, say, Hasbro's stuff. Hence the higher prices. So why compare their stuff to mass-produced figures? Why assume it's the "same market?"

    And again, why are they "misguided" if it's working well for them (assuming it is)? You're simply saying their prices suck (for you). That makes much more sense, and I don't actually disagree that much on that score, given how disappointed I've been with their quality as well.

    But, yeah, pretty much everything here is an opinion. I was just saying that what you said didn't make sense to me. That's all.

    As far as S7, I've owned a number of their products over the past few years...the Ultimates have occasional joint issues and not-infrequent paint issues. The Super Cyborgs and Reactions have generally good build quality and occasional paint/finish issues that are annoying. The only toys I really like are their Keshi figures, as they're generally hard to screw up, quality-wise. The fact that they're neither painted nor articulated really helps.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2021
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  13. TenScaryMonkeys

    TenScaryMonkeys Can You Believe How Great These Pants Look?

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    I think my personal confusion (and annoyance, to whatever extent I’m ever legit annoyed over plastic robots) in this specific instance is that they’re severely limiting their own potential customer base here. ThreeZero has shown several times over that there’s a high end market for large scale, non-transforming Optimus toys. And Hasbro has shown us that the ability to produce aesthetically pleasing hollow vinyl TFs at insanely low pricepoints exists.

    Will Super7 make money on this? Undoubtedly. There’s a market for almost everything, and niche vinyl collectors are willing to spend crazy money on their hobby. So far, all cool. Don’t like it? Don’t buy it. Don’t like the price being asked? Same answer. With you all the way.

    It just seems like these simply cannot be that expensive to make, and if that’s the case, I suspect they could easily move huge numbers of these things at prices closer to what collectors consider a reasonable impulse buys.

    To go a little bit deeper - The original Shogun Warriors (rounding up for generosity) were about $15 in 1980. Adjusted for inflation (and again being generous) that’s a hair under $30 in 2021 money. Given how niche this item is, go ahead and throw another $50 on there for it being a small batch item, cost of the license, and general Nerd Tax. And then, screw it, another $10 just because. At $90, I would ABSOLUTELY pull the trigger on a big, goofy Optimus with rollerskates, and suspect many others would too.

    But at $350, it just feels like they’re ONLY catering to the vintage Shogun Warriors collector, who’re already used to paying that kind of money for the real deal, while overlooking a vast potential sea of dorks like me who’d be happy to have such a fun, silly item.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2021
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  14. Charlock

    Charlock Lighten Up, Francis.

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    You win this thread. Thank you for being more articulate than I could be.

    You're absolutely right. There is no way these things are that expensive to produce. Full stop.
     
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  15. Predaking000

    Predaking000 Well-Known Member

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    On the one hand, I agree that S7 is kind of pushing the envelope w/pricing to see what they can get away with. I've not been crazy about their pricing on various figures lately either.

    To play devil's advocate, though, if this Jumbo Prime is a low-run figure, then obviously, they'd have to charge more to recoup the production cost. I imagine that the molds weren't cheap to produce.

    Low-run, retro-styled figures like the Leopardon I posted above are much more popular in Japan than here, and they tend to sell better (and at much higher prices) than they do here. I think a lot of people (not saying you) are completely missing that context. But to your point, the otaku tax is a real thing.

    Regarding the Shogun Warriors, they originally came out in '77-78. If we plug in the $15 price, my inflation calculator is spitting out $60-ish.

    But that said, the Shogun Warriors comparison does require a big caveat. We have to keep in mind that these were mass-produced toys from Japan that were rebranded/repackaged in America with minor alterations in some cases. It's not like Mattel had to develop and produce these toys from the ground up. More importantly, they were made to sell in large numbers (found in Sears catalogs), unlike this Jumbo Prime.

    Same for the diecast Shogun Warriors and, later, the Godaikins. Same for the Gobots and the Transformers. American companies were able to save on development costs by simply repackaging and occasionally repainting the toys, and then selling them in large quantities here.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2021
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  16. TenScaryMonkeys

    TenScaryMonkeys Can You Believe How Great These Pants Look?

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    Totally with you. But to further advocate for a slightly different devil who lives in the same cul-de-sac, back to my ThreeZero analogy from earlier... Do we really think the Bumblebee Optimus DLX was less expensive to license, develop, produce, paint, assemble, package, and ship than this, or that the market for a $200 non-transforming transformer is that much larger to make it up on volume?

    I’m also willing to advance my argument that this (and other, similar products) aren’t priced in alignment with what they cost to produce - They’re priced at a level that specific collector market is already used to paying for vintage items. If you’re willing to pay $500+ for a really nice vintage Mazinger, what’s $350 for a Prime of similar quality to sit next to him on a shelf? The Mazinger didn’t cost $500 to make, it costs that much because they’re rare, because they were cheaply made, disposable consumer goods to begin with.

    They can charge what they want, and if it works for them, cool. I have no beef with any of it. The value, as ever, is in the eye of the consumer. But in this instance, that value seems largely in the cachet of the thing, not in the material or production costs.
     
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  17. Predaking000

    Predaking000 Well-Known Member

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    No disagreement here. While you were responding, I edited my previous post to reference your reference to the otaku/nerd tax (been a minute since I've seen that term), which is a good point.

    S7's definitely been levying it across all their lines.

    As a vinyl collector, it's the bane of my existence. The price for that Jumbo Leopardon? Insane. Which sucks because I really want it. But as you say, it's what the market (and collector) is used to.
     
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  18. MegaMoonMan

    MegaMoonMan OFFICIAL MMM REP

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    $350 for that shampoo bottle hunk of shit? HAHAHAHAHAHA No.
     
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  19. Dragonclaw

    Dragonclaw Comic Ink - Dublin, CA

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    For Three Fiddy I'd rather have a jumbo of the Loch Ness Monster! I'm not dissing this entirely, As more of a Shogun Warriors collector than a Transformers collector this should be right in my wheelhouse...but it misses the mark with me. maybe because it just looks like a blown up PVC figure, maybe because I see Shogun Warriors as giant robots...so Optimus seems too small to stand shoulder to shoulder with them...I dunno...it doesn't scream Shogun Warriors to me...so i'm passing....

    THIS on the other hand I am all over, so it clearly isn't about price other than the "I've coveted a Leopardon jumbo for my collection for so long but don't have the many thousands to spend on an original without my wife beating me over the head with it once it arrives'...Anyone know who, where and when leopardon preorders are going up?
     
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  20. SmokePants

    SmokePants Well-Known Member

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    You do not have the information required to say whether the pricing was "appropriate" or not. It has to be assumed that this was the price it absolutely had to be in order for them to make it. And a price that you might have deemed appropriate would not have worked for them economically. You don't know anything about what this costs to produce.

    This was a pet project for Brian Flynn. It's only happening because he wanted it in his collection. It turns out that trying to make this particular style of figure in 2021, after most factories have abandoned blow-molding (among a myriad of other factors), is way more expensive than it is probably worth. They won't be doing reproductions of vintage Jumbo figures because they would not be cheaper than the vintage originals, whose value would come way down if a re-release actually happened.

    This was either $350 or it wouldn't have existed. Period. A lower price would not have attracted enough new buyers to cover the cost of lowering the price. I'm not buying it. I have no affinity for this style of figure. I'm just pointing out the vanity in questioning price points when you literally know nothing about how it was determined. All anyone needs to worry about is whether it's worth it to you.
     
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