Apparently you've never heard of the Nuremberg trials if you think that's far fetched.

 

Why the fuck does Batman need to be the one to kill the Joker? What about the city? Why is it that the city hasn’t put him to death? Batman says he would fight people like Joker, but would never kill them because he took an oath to protect others even going as far as saving the villain from themselves, because if crosses that line than he really is on the wrong side of the law.

Batman doesn’t have an officer’s badge so he can’t just go out there and start taking lives just because there’s ruthless people.

I’ve said this before and I’m getting fucking tired of constantly repeating myself, I don’t mind Optimus killing it’s the way he fucking does it that irritates me. Watch him rip other transformers head off their bodies like a fucking slasher villain is fucking disgusting, it’s not refreshing, it’s not cool, and it’s definitely not heroic.

 

Were they given the death penalty by a single individual carried out on sight for personal reasons without trial?

Your lack of understanding of due process is frightening.

I agree so much with every part of this post.

You can't blame Batman for not killing the Joker when the Joker has been captured, put to trail and imprisoned more times than I take a shit in a week. Nor is Prime supposed to never kill, but he does it in the worst fucking ways. Sentinel is actually the one and only time I see a problem with Prime killing, because it was a ruthless, cowardly way when Sentinel was totally defeated and no longer a threat. Everyone else Prime certainly had little option besides killing, but he didn't need to mutilate them to do it.

But people don't understand that. They don't understand you because in their minds there is only two extremes: Prime must either be a total pacifist or a ruthless, psychotic murderer. Those are the only two states in the minds of those who subscribe to Bay's depiction of justice, then anyone guilty deserves any punishment imaginable, and anyone who's righteous has the right to do whatever they want to whomever they want. Prime cannot be a pacifist, obviously, so therefor his extreme brutality is warranted because "they deserved it."

 

Thanks and your positively right! Sentinel was at that point basically defeat and was no longer a threat. Even when he’s talking to Optimus about why he did what did, he has an apologized tone to show Optimus that he was sorry for what he did.

 

I don't know if he was apologetic, but he was seemingly genuinely remorseful in some way, if only for betraying Optimus. He's was a sociopath and a backstabber, but he actually believed he did what was necessary right up until the end. Really, he and Optimus are not so much different. Sentinel doomed Earth to save Cybertron, and killed his enemies without regret or mercy in order to do so. Optimus doomed Cybertron to save Earth, and killed his enemies without regret or mercy in order to do so. Sentinel may have wanted to enslave humanity, but Optimus actually killed their home planet. From Sentinel's warped point of view, it's not hard to see Optimus as the villain.

And yet, Sentinel spared Optimus early on, hopeful he'd see his point of view, yet Optimus gives Sentinel no such courtesy. Sentinel, the unquestionably insane man who wanted to enslave an entire world to rebuild his own, was more merciful than the leader of the Autobots. Does that sound right to any of you?

Honestly, Optimus likes to cry about how there's so few of them left, but he's probably killed more Transformers than Megatron has at this point. You'd think he's want to spare as many as he could, lock them up with fleeting hope of rehabilitation than see his people dwindle any more, yet he sees killing, not just violence, as the first and only solution to every problem.

Whatever happened to the Optimus who was kind, gentle, idealistic, and used violence only as a last resort? The Optimus who believed that fighting for something didn't necessarily mean killing for something. He wasn't some spineless pacifist who would rather sit idle than take up arms, but I've always seen Optimus as a pragmatic yet hopeful leader. A much, much better Optimus once said in regards to his enemies: "defeating them doesn't mean we have to annihilate them."

Apparently Bay Optimus never watched Beast Wars.

 

Because the city won't do the damned job. Because apparently Gotham's justice system can't find it's ass with both hands, a road map, and a compass. If Gotham would actually deal with the problem, then Batman wouldn't have to kill the Joker. Look at The Dark Knight - Joker never came back after the first movie's events. Yes, out of the story that was because of Heath Ledger's passing, but in-universe the justice system worked, and Batman didn't have to kill Joker. Also, he's already on the wrong side of the law. Vigilantism in general, regardless of whether you're killing criminals, is frowned on by the authorities.

 

It's also real hard to sell comics if you have to keep coming up with new villains just for them to get thrown in jail.

And then you get shit where all the bad guys are in jail and start trouble. What are you going to do, they're already in jail. Arkham City, anyone?

If Gotham's justice system could actually handle being a hub of supervillainy, then Batman's very existence is unnecessary, since his entire reason for running out dressed as a bat to punch people is because the police are not able to do it. Look at all of Batman's greatest villains from his early years and you'll see that each of them reflect Batman himself like a twisted mirror, because the whole driving sense of that setting is Batman is not mentally well. Two Face is Batman's duality, Riddler is Batman's intelligence, Penguin is Batman's wealth, and Joker is Batman's insanity (the dude runs out in the middle of the night to punch bad guys because he still hasn't really gotten over his parents getting murdered in cold blood).

Plus, the GCPD itself is better than literally any law enforcement agency in the Payday universe where they have literal spec op invisible ninjas and shit and still can't manage to keep the world's most infamous clown-masked, bond villain-tier bank robbers in jail for any significant length of time. Except Hoxton, he got kinda screwed.

Yeah, no. The only reason Joker wasn't in TDKR is because Heath Ledger was dead. Or did you forget that a major plot point of TDKR is that Bane lets all the bad guys out of prison? Hell, Scarecrow is the show trial judge!

 

Maybe Cybertronians don't leave it up to the city to execute villains in the Bayverse.

 

More likely Michael Bay never really cared about Optimus as a character to begin with, hell you could say that about all the transformers in these dumbass movies. The majority of them have little to no personality whatsoever and then they’re all killed off before they’re even truly developed as characters to the point were the audience doesn’t cared about these movies anymore.

I totally agree with on all this by the way.

I agree with you on vigilantism in general is bad, but it’s even worse when you start fucking killing the criminals. Criminals are still people too and Batman cares about all life, even for the villains. Batman isn’t an insensitive person, he cares for the victims of the villains he faces. Even if he did kill the Joker what makes you think another person won’t step up and take the Joker’s place?

 

Will do.

What i meant was that most of what Sentinel did was too farfetched for someone to do in real life.

And what makes you think the Cybertronians would have the exact same process as us? Just look at how quick the Knights were to sentence Optimus to death.

 

The fact that they talk like us, look like us (sometimes) act like us, uphold the same values and ideals as us, and that Optimus' motto is literally "freedom is the right of all sentient beings." Sure sounds like a civilization built on due process if their leader is supposedly one of the most diplomatic creatures in the universe. (supposedly)

The Autobot's society is pretty well-reflected in how much they act like us and seamlessly mingle with us on a personal and social level. They act like typical westerners unless there's some ham-fisted alien/robot allegory for our lives they posses. The idea is not that Optimus' actions run contrary to our views, it's that they run contrary to his views. The idea that they aren't as civilized as us despite, well, listen to the way Optimus talks... it's just absurd and an excuse for bad writing.

Betraying your allies and attempting to enslave an entire race of people is far-fetched?

 

And you're still wrong.

Charles Manson? Carl Panzram (who was put to death for killing a police officer after incarceration)? Pee Wee Gaskins (claimed to have murdered over 100 people, was only executed after incarceration for blowing up another prisoner with C4)? Richard "The Iceman" Kuklinski? Whitey Bulger (killed by other inmates)? Faisal Shahzad (2010 New York Car Bombing attempt, could have potentially killed hundreds had the damn thing gone off properly)?

Every person I just named off the top of my head (admittedly not the last guy, I had to look up his name) were guilty of horrible crimes yet were not sentenced to death when tried for their initial litany of crimes, where applicable.

And then there's the Nazis. Again, the reason I brought up the Nuremberg trials is because that's where all the Nazis got tried for all their war crimes. You know, fun shit like the Holocaust and what the Nazis did with the Jews.

And a man named Albert Speer.

The reason I bring up Speer, a man you've probably never heard of, is because that motherfucker basically did everything you just said was far fetched. And no, he was not put to death when tried at Nuremberg.

1937, Hitler makes him Berlin's General Building Inspector...and he promptly started eviciting the crap out of the Jewish population a part of a 'resettlement' program that while not explicitly stated, most likely ended in such places like Auschwitz - PLEASE tell me you understand the meaning of that name. In 1944, he's been the head of the Nazi Munitions department and so he gets the bright idea of trying to increase fighter plane production via a special task force...whose entire job was to enslave the Jews to build planes like the ME-262 in secret industrial facilities inside artificial caves.

At Nuremberg, he was found guilty of war crimes, crimes against humanity, and to this day is largely considered to have played an instrumental role in Hitler's Final Solution - you know, the meticulous and total attempted extermination of all Jews, a.k.a. the final phase of the Holocaust. But he was not put to death like many at Nuremberg. Instead, this man who had ties to a kill count greater than what Sentinel and all the Decepticons in DOTM did, was only given 20 years in prison. He was released in 1966, wrote some books and enjoyed some post-WWII popularity for giving an 'insight' into the Third Reich while also stating he regretted not doing something about the crimes of the Nazis sooner (even though in 1944, as mentioned, this guy pretty much was the reason they started using Jews as slave labor). He died of a stroke in 1981.

I recommend you watch this. It's based on a true story. And it'll make you reconsider what is and is not 'too far fetched' when it comes to how far gone morality can be in the eyes of mortal man.

Who the fuck cares about if he actually gets over his god complex? Making him live like a slave to the very people who he had tried to enslave is a fitting punishment simply by reducing him to insignificance. Can't be a god when you can't do much more than fight fires. Incidentally, that's exactly what the prop vehicle is doing - after the filming, it got repainted and deployed as an actual airport firetruck, though I forget the exact airport.

 

Yeah I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that this discussion is going a tad far since its involving real world tragedies and murders, etc.

 

This discussion involved questioning why Sentinel was executed instead of given a fair trial, with Bee Camaro saying that somehow, what Sentinel did was far too unrealistic (in so many words) to fit within normal concepts of morality.

My point about bringing up Speer was to show that, no, it really wasn't, because that shit has happened and was judged such that Speer was not sentenced to death for being involved with the Holocaust and doing, on a somewhat smaller scale, exactly what Sentinel had done or was planning to do.

Which ties back to him being shot in the face entirely unnecesary on the part of Optimus Prime, since Sentinel should have been tried, if not by the surviving Autobots, by humanity itself.

 

Exactly my thoughts.

 

Not every alien that invades gets trailed in fiction.

Where's the justice for the Independence Day aliens then? They have to answer for their invasion.

 

Also I just realized this thread isn't about BAYformers Prime, it's about BAformers Prime.

 

Well at the end of the day that didn't happen and nothing at this point is going to change it. Hell Sentinel even died in the novel and comic versions, it was always going to happen to him.

 

That doesn't change the fact you can't claim Prime did the right thing in the interest of the greater, moral good. Which last I checked was kinda the whole point of this thread, trying to explain why Prime wasn't somebody who killed for the sake of killing and that he somehow was totally in the right.

Like, up to this point, we've had people try to suggest he's got PTSD, that it's entirely normal for people to rip their enemies apart in bloody gore, that somehow a race of aliens that are blatantly based on human culture norms and society don't have the same concepts of just killing, and now that Sentinel somehow was single handedly responsible for shit that far outstripped what the human race has done to itself to the point that Frontier/Vigilante Justice has been promimently endorsed at the cost of ignoring the right to due process of law.

And none of any of that has held up to scrutiny.

EDIT: You want to bring up the novel? Yeah, Sentinel dies, but Megatron lives because Prime doesn't kill him and instead accepts the truce.

 

We've all been talking about the wrong guy for the past 14 pages, then.