Stop Pretending Bayformers Optimus is a Good Character

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by agent j 15, Feb 1, 2019.

  1. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Ding dong THE BAYVERSE IS DEAD!

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    Well, if you like the Fallout 76 of Transformers media, then more power to you I suppose.
     
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  2. Jetstorm

    Jetstorm Wielder of the Keyblade

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    No, he’s not a good character.


    He’s a great one :rock 
     
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  3. Ash from Carolina

    Ash from Carolina Junior Smeghead

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    It seems like complex characters are not a trait of Bay movies. The characters often depend on the natural charisma of the actors than the director carefully crafting the characters. If an actor could read the phone book and make it sound interesting they can be an interesting character in a Bay film but if they need the input of the director it kind of seems like it just isn't there.

    But to be fair all directors have their strong points and their weak points. It's often down to finding movies that can highlight their strong points and gloss over their weak points.
     
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  4. ObakaChanTachi

    ObakaChanTachi Manny said the N-word

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    Absolutely not. It doesn’t work narratively, Joyce’s whole existence was to be a foil to Attinger.

    Both were partners who worked together in their mutual hatred for Transformers, however what made them different was that Joyce cared about quality while Attinger only wanted the money. Joyce wanted to make the world a better place while Attinger only wanted to fill his pocket.

    Galvatron showed each other their true colours; Joyce was horrified and called paramedics to assist the injured while Attinger dimissed them as “innocents die everyday”. As if that wasn’t enough Attinger’s golden parachute speech finally woke up Joyce to how much of a monster his partner was; prompting his defection to the Autobots.

    It also fits into the theme that redemption equals life. Joyce redeemed himself intime to be spared, Attinger did not and paid for it with death. His role should’ve been expanded for TLK but as usual Bay and his screenwriters had to fuck everything over.
     
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  5. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    There's been plenty of scenes through the movies of Optimus having to fight off multiple adversaries at once.

    How much deeper story do you need?

    Besides, I don't see Optimus as being violent; I see him as a skilled and effective fighter / warrior.
     
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  6. TheWarPathGuy

    TheWarPathGuy MAXIMUM CARNAGE!!!

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    Optimus shows the worst side of the war. His violent nature began to show over the movies progressed. I believe this us because he lost so many close friends and Autobots over the years he wants to avenge them all.

    What if Megatron wants Optimus to be like this so he can get the upper hand?

    I thought it would be cool if the movies explored his rage and violence, what if his sociopathic nature got himself in trouble?
     
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  7. Uncrazimatic55

    Uncrazimatic55 Well-Known Member

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    He is a good character because he has his flaws. The quintessential good guy from the 80's just isn't relatable to this generation. It's why Batman is more popular than Superman. Look at the Attitude era from the WWE/WWF. How guys like Stone Cold or the Rock would have been heels a decade earlier were the new babyface. Especially the Rock. People hated him as Rocky Maiavia.

    Optimus is not the Optimus that we all grew up watching. I grew up with G1. I still have a tough time watching Optimus dying in the 1986 movie, but I understand the new character. A war that's been raging on for thousands of years will do that to a soldier. In ROTF when he says "you'll never stop at one." Optimus probably sacrificed some of his values for the sake of peace, only for it to come back to bite him. He knows there is no compromising with the Deceptions. Which is why he had to take out the Fallen despite the fact he was defeated. After the attack on the shuttle, that's probably another instance that has made Prime more hardened to the realities of war. I have some trouble with him saying "we will kill them all" but I can understand it as a soldier based on everything he's gone through. The only line I have had a hard time with is when he says "I'll kill you." After everything he and the Autobots did for the planet, they have now turned on them, but Cade helps him restore his faith in humanity which is why I can accept him killing Attinger. Cade saved him and he won't betray a friend. That's also true Optimus.
     
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  8. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    Bay didn’t get Optimus wrong.

    The Bayverse isn’t G1, or G2, or A/E/C, or Animated or PRIME, or Marvel, or Dreamwave, or IDW.

    Since the Bayverse is its own thing then Optimus is fine by default. It doesn’t matter if Bay’s Optimus isn’t babied down like the children’s programs.
     
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  9. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Ding dong THE BAYVERSE IS DEAD!

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    I think this is the greatest disconnect between the perceived audience and the actual audience.

    After all, at the end of the day, Transformers exists to sell toys to children.

    The last time they tried making an Autobot leader with prominent flaws, he was G1 Rodimus Prime. You'll find few people who were children during G1 S3's airings that particularly liked that kind of leader.
     
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  10. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    Except 1 doesn’t have anything to do with the other.

    Just because Hasbro makes kids toys doesn’t obligate Paramount to make movies for children. Paramount makes movies for the average person 13 and up, not certain kids 12 and below.

    Besides, the R Rated Terminator franchise had toys, as well as Alien and Starship Troopers.

    So you might as well embrace Movie OP for what he is instead of complain about what he isn’t.
     
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  11. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Ding dong THE BAYVERSE IS DEAD!

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    The entire point of the films is to push toyline product...something that last I checked, AoE really kind of sucked at doing (and that's after the easy observation that Hasbro gave litterally zero shits there because their own reps said they thought nobody would want a toy of Stinger).

    Bumblebee was an effort to try and salvage the direction of the films from mindless blockbuster slop into more family friendly content - and given Bumblebee made almost as much as TLK with half the budget, it's clear Paramount nigh-exclusively trying to pander to the mindless teenage market is not the way to go anymore.

    Yeah and how well did those toylines do?

    I don't have to accept anything - just because that's what Hasbro/Paramount put out doesn't mean I have to be satisfied with it.
     
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  12. TheSoundwave

    TheSoundwave Hooked on a Feeling!

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    I think children can be receptive towards a flawed leader if the character is done well. I think the problem with Rodimus was that he was trying to fill the shoes of a much cooler character, who generally had more of a presence and was more defined. I think a lot of children also rejected him since he wasn't part of the group they knew (like the "new kid" being made class president on day one).

    If Season 3 had Bumblebee/Goldbug become the new leader (similar to the newer RID), I think it would have gone over fine. Or someone like Ironhide. Or if Hot Rod had simply been introduced during Season 2. I think the main problem with Rodimus was simply the fact that Hasbro tried to push their new toys too fast, without giving kids a chance to warm up them naturally.
     
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  13. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    So? Again- movies and toys don’t have anything to do with each other.

    And if parents continued to take their kids to the movies then they apparently have less issue with Prime’s portrayal than some gatekeeping fanboy.

    Bumblebee was already in the works when the films were red lit, and was really sheer dumb luck that it didn’t cease production as well.

    No, it’s clear that Between TLK and Trek Beyond they were spending too much money for the tickets sold and slashed the budget in case they had to take a loss.


    Better than the Indiana Jones toys.

    [/quote]
    I don't have to accept anything - just because that's what Hasbro/Paramount put out doesn't mean I have to be satisfied with it.[/QUOTE]
    Which is funny considering how people call Movie OP psychotic without questioning their own rationality in complaining about the portrayal of a cg character that doesn’t meet their approval.

    Most sane people simply choose to not watch films they don’t like.
     
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  14. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Ding dong THE BAYVERSE IS DEAD!

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    Gatekeeping? Seriously?

    No, Bumblebee wasn't canceled because of dumb luck, it wasn't canceled because Paramount had already completed pre-production for it and basically were just trying to salvage the investment by retooling it after Hasbro had to step in and bail their sorry asses out financially.

    Then can you please tell other people this? I'm tired of being told I have to watch AoE no matter how many times I respond with the fact that I did see it and that was one time too many.
     
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  15. Nathanoraptor

    Nathanoraptor Well-Known Member

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    Well, you are the one who says that Transformers media cannot be made for teenagers or adults. Nothing says Transformers "has" to be for kids, except you.

    Also, plenty of parents take their children to see Transformers movies already; I was 10 when I saw the first one, as did everyone in my class. On my last day of primary school (or grade school to Americans), our teacher brought in Transformers for us to watch, because we'd all requested it.

    Bumblebee was not, however, extensively retooled because of the feedback from The Last Knight. Travis Knight had been hired well before The Last Knight was released and Christina Hodson's script for the film was pretty much the same one that she'd pitched in 2016.

    Pretty much nothing changed in the retooling, aside from a few scenes being added or removed. The one Travis Knight really got bitter about was a post-credits scene revealing the frozen Megatron; he wanted that scene kept in.

    Our issue is not that "you need to watch AOE", our issue is that you are acting like it is personally offensive to you that other people might possess differing opinions to yours. Just say "we agree to disagree" and MOVE ON!
     
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  16. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Ding dong THE BAYVERSE IS DEAD!

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    I never said that, what I said was the main media typically should not be focusing more on the teen/adult angle over what has been the bread and butter of the franchise for the past 30 years. And if somehow that wasn't clear, then I apologize for not being as such since somehow I can't find that post I swear I made.

    Congratulations, you're now in your early 20s.

    I'm sure that masturbation joke went over super well with the teacher.

    Have you even seen the leaked concept art? BUMBLEBEE IS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE VIETNAM WAR.

    The BIG BUMBLEBEE CONCEPT ART THREAD

    And this art is clearly labeled for the Bumblebee film so the only conceivable reason he would even be there is if the original script was extremely different than the final given, y'know, he never leaves the continental United States once he arrives on Earth.

    And the reason he was bummed about the Frozen Megatron was because they didn't get to use the supposedly epic G1-esque design for the guy, not because of the script change that pretty much confirms Bumblebee is not canon to the Bayverse (since S7 is somehow supposed to be formed in response to the alien robots...and yet they clearly have never encountered the alien robots in Bumblebee even though they supposedly have one frozen inside Hoover Dam that all modern technology was reverse-engineered off of, according to Transformers 2007).

    As I said before, if you want to like what is basically the Fallout 76 of the Transformers franchise, then more power to you.
     
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  17. Nathanoraptor

    Nathanoraptor Well-Known Member

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    And I told you that plenty of parents take their children to see Transformers in spite of all that. Evidently, they don't have any issues with all that.

    I should also point out I went to a Catholic school!

    But, seriously, she didn't care; firstly, she was one of the fun teachers and, secondly, she knew that all our parents had taken us to see it anyway. Also, we'd all requested it.

    Well, Christina Hodson happens to disagree with you, all right? In much the same way as whether Bumblebee is a reboot or not; whilst we'd all like to think reboot, Travis Knight has said, explicitly, that Bumblebee is a prequel.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
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  18. DOTM Bumblebee

    DOTM Bumblebee I must be some kind of nut...

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    Movie Optimus had potential. If we'd explored his fall from the idealistic, self-sacrificing hero of the first film to the gritty pragmatist of the sequels, up to the jaded villain that TLK's Nemesis Prime could have been, then I would certainly agree. However, none of his character flaws are framed as flaws, the cold and brutal way in which he dispatches his enemies is not only portrayed as necessary, but admirable, and his character development receives no real focus beyond furthering Sam's story, up until Age of Extinction, where he does not change or grow over the course of the movie. Because his arc receives little to no focus, he comes across as a brutal pragmatist with a "kill first, ask questions never" mentality.
     
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  19. Jalen Frisby

    Jalen Frisby BumblebeeLover

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    My thoughts exactly, See Prime in the movies..yeah he did had potential, but how he was..eugh.
     
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  20. Music

    Music Primetimus Prime

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    Travis also said it will be up for the higher-ups (presumably Paramount and Hasbro) on what's to come next. He admits he doesn't have a say in where the next movie leads up to so Travis is saying what he was initially told when he came on board to this film. Many things could have changed during the production and now.
     
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