Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by Dire 51, Nov 4, 2019.
Which has a greater richness of mythology: Star Wars or Transformers?
I don't see how it's even up for debate. Star Wars has FAR more media behind it than Transformers. Movies, books, comics, etc. The only area where Transformers beats Star Wars is cartoon episodes. But I think the insane number of Star Wars books alone dwarfs everything Transformers has put out.
Apples and Oranges. Star Wars is a singular timeline, while Transformers branches out into many different continuities.
Hasbro is on their way of turning TF into a big IP media franchise, but SW is already there since forever.
Honestly: Transformers. With Disney dumping 90% of the old lore and making everything into a bland “Rebels vs. Empire” story, Transformers now has more richness to it’s lore.
Granted I haven’t been keeping up with SW since TFA, but from what I absorbed through pop-culture osmosis, SW is starting to run on fumes.
Not to derail the topic, but retconning in the Star Wars universe - especially when it comes to stuff that isn't in the movies or cartoons - is very common. The original idea behind the Clone Wars was the clones were the aggressors, and that's how a lot of Star Wars media referred to it until Attack of the Clones came out.
Plus, the old Post-ROTJ canon from the EU was convoluted as heck and full of just plain bad ideas; I'm glad it was declared non-canon.
Star Wars, partially due to it being around longer and its had time to build up its mythos, races, places, mechanics and characters both main and side. I absolutely loved the books.
Transformers just touches on the same thing, with 2 main species, merely brushes up on other alien races and can barely be bothered to do a damn thing with its home planet, the reason for its war is very simple or never properly explained.
Both suffer from simplistic black and white syndrome. Jedis good. Sith bad. Autobots good. Decepticons bad.
Where are the inbetween balanced Jedi and Sith? Where are the kind-hearted cons and cruel bots? Why are the neutral cybertronians and gray force users so seldom explored?
There's no nuance.
It would be so interesting to see Cybertron fully and to see other aliens and see other colonies who just want to live their lives away from the war and how it has impacted them.
It'd be great to see how gray force users managed to maintain balance between both sides of the force without becoming corrupted or saintly. That whole stint with Etain meeting gray jedi? I wanted more of those people.
It's one thing to ret-con, its another to throw out everything. And i would take convoluted over the bland stuff in the new films. At least we can mock some of the old lore for it's silliness, but the new movies are just plain boring.
There was some older SW lore that touched the idea of grey Jedi or force users who weren't part of the Jedi/Sith dichotomy. But sadly any sort of grey morality has been scrubbed away in favor of a "Jedi good, Sith pure evil". Even Lucas has said there is no middle ground, you are either good or evil, that's it.
As for world-building, both franchises suffer from the One Biome Planet trope. Hoth is an ice world, Junkion is a junk world.
Eh, prior to Disney nuking everything but the movies, SW easily. SW still wins now due to the PT, OT, and CWs, but Disney's output has added nothing, really.
Well it depends on your perspective.
Star Wars is one 'master timeline' that's always being changed and revised. It's had as many bad movies as good.
There's a lot of different comics and books that bridge from the movies in fascinating ways but they're all 'non-canon' now and Disney's stuff hasn't been nearly as 'rich' as before.
Those stories still EXIST tho. You can still read and enjoy them. Disney declaring something non-canon really shouldn't affect your ability to enjoy an otherwise good star wars book.
TRANSFORMERS has always had tangent timelines, and honestly I think Transformers pushes its own limits, and rejuvenates itself much more frequently. Transformers also does a MUCH better job when they try to be 'deep' than Star Wars does.
Star Wars is a good vs evil story, with very little gray and the gray they do experiment with is very careful and sparse.
TF is guilty of this too no doubt, but they gray the line way more frequently imo
Even as early as 1984, G1 (the good one from Marvel Comics) found the time and energy to go to wild far out places and illustrate tough choices, the futility of war, the nature of good and evil, WHAT IS GOOD AND EVIL?, IS OUR GOD PRIMUS CALLOUSLY USING US AS PAWNS IN HIS BLOOD FEUD??? Etc etc. Ofc it had plenty of grounded or goofy stories, but it still found some kinda dark and fascinating place to take its story at least yearly if not more frequently.
Then the Beast Era really blows most of Star Wars out of the water on things like character depth, character growth, sheer biblical scale, and shades of gray.
Dinobot's journey and sacrifice, Megatron's genocide and honest repudiation of the downsides of 'free will', Primal's whole story especially his wavering in BM S1, and Cheetor's growing up in front of our eyes all, imo, blow the assorted Star Wars movies and their moralizing and character 'growth' right out of the galaxy.
SW tried gray, but George made them retcon it.
And Hasbro never retconned Beast Machines, Age of Extinction, or the Straxian Genocide.
The fuck is the 'Straxian Genocide'?
I think that was from Roberts Eugenesis crap with the druggie Springer and Soundwave's Quintesson mutant baby.
Damn homie you've never read the Marvel G1 comics?
Well, spoilers for Marvel G1 ahead.
The war started when Cybertron's old Autobot Guard effectively collapsed and malcontents in Tarn and Vos were terrorizing each other. Gladiatorial combat became more and more popular. Eventually Tarn and Vos destroyed each other and the gladiator Megatron rallied the survivors of both city-states (including the former leaders of the states, Starscream and Shockwave, which is WHY they both want to usurp him so badly among other things) into the Decepticons and blamed the Autobots of Iacon making them the 'enemy'. So starts Megatron's mad quest for all of the power.
The war goes on for 1000 years, early on Optimus Prime rises to command, appointed by the Autobot Elders left alive from Megatron's initial assaults.
Cybertron, the war now spread worldwide, is disturbed from its orbit of Alpha Centauri and eventually drifts into our asteroid belt. The Ark is launched to clear a path for Cybertron and they succeed, then Megatron and his crew give chase, board the Ark, and Optimus decides its better for Cybertron if he just kills everyone aboard, Autobot and Decepticon, by crashing the ship into Earth. But Optimus wound up leaving Cybertron in a worse state than ever AND doomed Earth to be a part of the war which is why he's so guilt ridden in these comics.
4 million years, blah blah blah, Mt St Hilary erupts, the war begins anew on Earth after the Ark outfits them all with new alt modes based on 'local mechanical life' because it can't recognize organic life all that good.
Meanwhile, some mech named Trannis seizes power over the Decepticons on Cybertron and the Autobot resistance, led by sole surviving elder Emirate Xaaron, is pushed further and further underground before Trannis settles into a sort of complacent lazy dictatorship that eats up a lot of the 4M years timeframe and allows the Autobots to regroup and gain a little ground, but they were still in a very disadvantageous position.
Eventually, Straxus decides Trannis' era is over and sieizes power. He ups the ante considerably and pushes the Autobots further underground than ever before. It was HIS idea first to melt down Autobots into raw metal for more Decepticons and weaponry.
His fortress was one big smelting pool where he did just that
So this awful industrial murder was called the Straxian Genocide
Beast Megatron borrowed the idea, it would seem. One of the many deliberate call backs to the G1 comics from the Beast Era that many viewers don't notice if they haven't read the comics.
So...we're at the point where people have to cite literal fanfiction as shit Hasbro hasn't retconned, even though you can't retcon fanfiction because it never happened in canon?
EDIT: Oh, it's from the Marvel comics. Which hilariously, very few people even fucking remember these days. They stopped being relevant when IDW actually finished the plotline somehow by killing off a bunch of dudes I think?
Either way, the Marvel Comics continuity is its own accepted separate continuity than any other branch of G1, so it's not really something Hasbro needs to 'retcon' anyway because nobody gives a shit.
No it wasn't, it was Marvel US #17 and #18, then dozens of Marvel UK stories that filled in some blanks in the history.
You guys are phenomenally dim. How are you a Transformers fan without at least a peripheral awareness of the Marvel G1 mythos? It's a beast of a read, the whole US/UK shebang, but sooo worth it.
I'd be glad to PM you guys some free HD scan links of original issues and the recent reprints if you like? Then you can know about Transformers next time.
You just dropped a true fan argument. Wow.
I mean, we know of Straxus, but you're acting like anything he did by kicking people into smelting pools and dispensing mercy instead of death was anything significant. The most significant thing Straxus ever did? Clone his own mind into a facimile of Megatron which was running around as the REAL Megatron, until the Two Megatrons issue which is a complete mindfuck and then Fake Megatron kills himself to prevent Straxus from winning.
But still, "know about Transformers next time"? Really not doing yourself favors in the public relations department with replies like that.
Considering even seemingly small insignificant background characters who don't speak a word have names and back stories nothing can beat Star Wars as far as mythology goes. No other fiction is existence puts that much thought and effort into world building as to have entire stories for someone who in another universe would of been listed as "Extra".
Transformers has A LOT of generic background characters who are just there to fill space. Though a lot of G1 characters were named later on via retcons like Acid Storm and Sunstorm. Back in the day they were just unnamed generic seekers. And many seekers still are unnamed generic background characters. But everything within Star Wars has some sort of story behind it, there are no generic background characters.
Yes that's how Straxus' reign did end. But his rise, rule, and smelting pit vision were a significant and unprecedentedly miserable era in the G1 lore. It is a textbook genocide apparent from the illustrations. Then the comic references it as the Straxian Genocide at some point in a 'history briefing' feauturette in one of the UK annuals, which adds Trannis to the story and gives a brief overview of Cybertron between the Ark leaving and Straxus' rule. Then it makes sure to note that Straxus conceived of the smelting pits himself.
So I've always wondered if that idea made it's way to the Beast Machines people at some point, or if maybe Marv Wolvman, Bob Skir, someone had actually read US#18 and that inspired Megatron's very similar idea in the Vehicon Apocalypse.
My fanon is Megatron's vision was "inspired" by history.
I guess I shouldn' insult the honor of your fanhood. I'm sorry. Bad day honestly.
However you and the other guy both didn't know what I was talking about, misidentified it as Roberts fanfic stuff and then were condescending and made real asses of yourselves.
But back into my original point.
The smelting pools are crazy dark compared to a lot of later fiction and especially for a 1984 toy commercial. Transformers has always been ambitious in terms of its scope and themes. They've nowhere near hit the mark every time, but I usually feel like that ambition is there and I think Transformers has made a lot of bold, franchise shaking chances that SW never has or would take. Generally TF tackles mature and complex ideas/themes with more deft than Star Wars braindead light side/dark side stuff and has majorly changed up its story and style more than once, often times to plenty of profit.
Star Wars is all the same.
Separate names with a comma.