Star Wars: Rebels

Discussion in 'Movies and Television' started by Gridlock1987, May 20, 2013.

  1. soundwaverulls

    soundwaverulls Taking a break

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    While Vader's suit does hinder him in many areas, he learns to adapt, and use it to his advantage (I think. I don't follow much of the EU, Cannon or Legends). He's now much stronger than most humanoids, and the suit does give him a lot of protection. In Ep V, Luke got a good blow on his shoulder, yet Vader didn't lose a limb. Considering the cutting power Lightsabers have, his suit must be very armoured. While it's very possible he's less capable than Anakin was at the time he took the name Vader, I still think he's more than capable of beating Ahsoka.
     
  2. RabidYak

    RabidYak Go Ninja Go Ninja Go

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    Plus rage channels power from the Dark Side and Vader is the angriest mofo in the galaxy.

    The psychology shouldn't be underestimated either. Dude looks scary as shit, radiates terror, only a few people really know what is actually in the suit and others that know of his reputation have probably heard that he's unstoppable. With Ahsoka theres the added factor that she's clouded by their past and probably doesen't really want to kill him, we see in ROTJ that Luke is only really able to stop Vader when he looses his shit and briefly gives in to what Palps wants.
     
  3. Max Rawhide

    Max Rawhide Rollin' Rollin' Rollin' ... uh, never mind

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    This definitely. His artifical limbs give him much more strength. However, in a sword fight strength doesn't have to be an advantage. Vader (and before him Anakin) does have a very power centred way of fighting with big (shoulder) slashes pushing away the sword of his opponent.

    But a good swordfighter can use that strength against the attacker. I've practised Kendo (Japanese swordfighting) for a short while and when (in frustration) you attacked with strength the sensei just swiped your sword to the side with the smallest of countermoves and you stumbled while being hit on the head or across the chest.

    Also, if you look at the ANH fight you see an elderly Kenobi who likely hasn't fought a lightsaber duel in years hold his own against Vader, by using Vader's strength against him. If that fight had continued without interruption or threat from the Stormtroopers, then Ben Kenobi would tired Vader and taken advantage of the inevitable slip up and won.

    Indeed. Also think back to Bespin where he intercepted Han's laser shots. He's very well armoured indeed. And that does give him advantage: a quick strike will hurt him, but it won't kill or injure him.

    But at the same time the armour slows him down and hinders him. And of course, the reason for the armour is simply because he isn't fast or agile any more. He needs the protection the armour gives him, because he's physically not capable anymore of standing against Jedi. In RotJ the enraged Luke wiped the floor with him and Luke is a terrible swordfighter. Really terrible -- if it wasn't for the force, I'm sure I could defeat him in less than a minute, and I was pretty terrible myself.

    And that I doubt. Ahsoka uses two swords which gives her an advantage: it means Vader will have to move incredibly fast to block both swords and he's not incredibly fast anymore. Ahsoka is faster and much more agile. I have no doubt Anakin could defeat her, but the crippled Vader shouldn't be able to defeat her. She's just to fast, agile and experienced, with the added benefit of using two swords against someone who should already have trouble countering a single sword.


    And at the same time rage can work against you, if you're fighting someone who is in control and knows how to fight. And Ahsoka knows how to fight.
     
  4. ABrown

    ABrown Well-Known Member

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  5. Gordon_4

    Gordon_4 The Big Engine

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    And yet despite being crippled, Vader has still cultivated a reputation as a superlative individual combatant and a dark wizard whom people shit their pants in terror of. In Rebel's he's still relatively young (whatever that's worth to him), he's not going to be hampered by any kind of attachment to Ahsoka and as I understand it he's fueled by his own perpetual rage and self loathing: for a Sith, that shit is like Wheaties squared - Breakfast of Champions.

    Besides, I just watched his battle with Kanan and Ezra; aside from him basically taking them to school and throwing them around like he paid for them - they dropped a pair of AT-ST walkers on him, after knocking him down with a force push and he just got right up and tossed them over his shoulder. He is still strong with the Force, not what he once was but it's like being downgraded from Superman to Superboy.

    Whatever his disadvantages may be, Darth Vader is a force to be reckoned with.

    Also, petty bullshit time: why are the lightsaber blades so damn thin?
     
  6. Zeta Otaku

    Zeta Otaku Who ya gonna call? TFW2005 Supporter

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    It's the art style they're pulling from. In the original movie's concept art, the light saber blades were super thin, which is where Rebels is getting inspiration from (Hell, Zeb is based off Chewbacca's original concept design before he back the furball we love)
     
  7. Gordon_4

    Gordon_4 The Big Engine

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    Fair enough then.
     
  8. jala12

    jala12 Fiery Adventurer

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    The lightsabers were also pretty thin looking in ANH.
     
  9. Gordon_4

    Gordon_4 The Big Engine

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    Not like in here. What sprang to mind was a set of special lightsabers you can buy on the Old Republic's cash store.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. soundwaverulls

    soundwaverulls Taking a break

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    I don't know if Obi-Wan could've won that. I don't have any training, so I'm not exactly an expert at analyzing this stuff, but the two seemed equally matched. Then consider that older Jedi can compensate for their age (at least to a degree) through the force. Not to mention that before he aged, Obi-Wan beat Vader. Fighting him to a draw isn't exactly unimpressive. Although, if anyone was going to get tired first, my bet would've been on the old man.

    It may be true that Luke isn't a good swordsman (I don't really know) but you do have to take into account that Vader was holding back, not wanting to kill his son. Sure, he hadn't known Luke for as long as he knew Ahsoka, but I expect Luke being his last connection to Padme likely effected him strongly.


    Ahsoka is definitely skilled in exactly the style of fighting Vader would be weak against, however Vader has the advantage of being Ahsoka's teacher. While I'm sure she's evolved her fighting style in last 15 years, Vader will probably still know a lot of her moves, especially as there's likely been nobody else to teach her.

    But will Ahsoka be in control? She was very close to Anakin. Having to fight her old master will likely make her very emotional.
     
  11. Mark

    Mark Just here for the toys

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    I thought the same thing. It really sucks that Rickman died. His was really the only one out of the recent batch of celebrity deaths that got to me.
     
  12. Max Rawhide

    Max Rawhide Rollin' Rollin' Rollin' ... uh, never mind

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    Kenobi in ANH starts out fighting like he was younger, spinning around and attacking. And he can't do that anymore. But then he starts fighting like an aged Kendo master: holding the centre. This means that when attacking Vader has to move Kenobi blade aside first or risk being impaled. If you watch the fight you see Kenobi either stepping back (rotating his lightsabre around Vaders' and thus nullifiying that attack) or making small movements to easily deflect any attack and using the block (and Vader's own strength) for a (dangerous) counter attack. And fighting like this you make very small and very fast attacks.

    This takes very little energy from the defendent and much more strength from the attacker. It was only a matter of time before Vader would've made a small mistake (either by exhaustion or frustration), and Kenobi would've used that and injured Vader. His armoured suit likely would've protected him and Kenobi probably wouldn't have been able to kill Vader, but he would've injured him to slow him down more or make him even more angry and reckless.


    That definitely plays a part. In the Bespin duel you can even see that Luke takes Vader by surprise by being better than expected. Vader starts the fight singlehanded as a sign of contempt, and disarms him. And Vader is clearly held back by not wanting to kill Luke. This likely also plays a part in the Death Star duel, but to a less extend. Here Vader has no choice but to kill Luke. He would still prefer it if Luke joined them, but Vader knows that if he doesn't, then the Emperor would demand Luke's death. (I think the novelisation deals with this dilemma very well.)

    But you can tell Luke is a bad swordsman by simply looking at him. His feet are often wide apart -- stand like that and move your arms in a swordfighting way and you'll find that you're unbalanced. When Luke has to block an attack it's almost always a locking block: he really puts the lightsabre in a firm stop position making it more difficult to go from block to attack, while a real sword fighter uses a moving block: the sword is moving counter to the attacker, deflects the attack while using the gained energy to counter attack.

    Luke eventually won by embracing the Dark side and attacking in complete anger. And Vader couldn't do anything against it. Not because Luke was a good fighter or the anger made him powerful (because an experienced, able Jedi would've deflected Luke's attack without issue), but because Vader isn't capable of this kind of fighting anymore. His artifical limbs and armoured suit hinders him too much.

    More importantly is a comment made by Lucas about the lightsabre duels in the OT: a cripple (Vader), and old man (Kenobi) and a young boy (Luke) who was taught by this old man.


    That definitely will aid Vader. He taught her and knows a lot of her moves. But that goes two ways: Ahsoka also knew how Anakin fought. Vader's style is quite similar to Anakin's, albeit more limited and even more based on power.


    That's the biggest question. She will be very emotional and probably doesn't want to kill him. He likely won't have the same qualms, unless he wants her as his apprentice again (and he really needs an apprentice because he's no longer able to defeat Palpatine on his own). I don't think that's likely because she's formed too much and won't turn to the Dark Side.



    He's definitely an imposing, frightening presence. And his ability to kill people with a thought through the force would aid in this. But I think it's his position more than his abilities. The Emperor has put him in charge of the fleet and he thus wields the highest possible power within the empire, with a know reputation of short temper and the ability to kill those who displease him.

    But I don't know it that reputation is based on his combative status. In the OT we never seen him engage anyone in combat, save for an old Jedi and a young inexperienced Jedi -- only Han Solo and that's just using his armour to block the shots, which always made me wonder why he didn't use his lightsabre.

    But in RotS Jedi Masters were overpowered and gunned down by half a dozen Clone troopers. Clone Troopers were better than Stormtroopers, but I can't see Vader hold his own against a dozen or so Stormtroopers, while as Anakin he likely could. Or look at the Clone Wars where he mowed through Battle Droids, thanks to his speed and agility. I can't see him do the same as Vader.


    Ah, but Rebels is already part of the new approach of seeing Vader as an incredible badass fighter and runs counter to what Lucas (Word of God) said about Vader in the OT: a cripple and not an example of what a Jedi could do.

    Besides, although it seems impressive to have some AT-ST fell on you and survive (and it is, don't get me wrong), it isn't indicative of being a good swordfighter or a viable threat in a combat situation. It just shows that he's strong enough in the force to prevent them from crushing him.

    And the same holds true for throwing things around. Vader needs the breathing room the concentrate and focus to use the force like that. In the OT he only did this during one part of the duel with Luke in Bespin and this was at a time when they weren't activily fighting. If Ahsoka keeps him busy deflecting her attacks, then he won't have much time for this. Besides, Ahsoka is trained enough to not be distracted and was shown to be an excellent swordfighter in the Clone Wars.

    And the same can't be said for Kenan and Ezra. Both are inexperienced.


    Not saying that he isn't. I'm just saying that he's not even close to being the swordfighter he once was. But it is very much a case of "In the land of the Blind..." Vader, crippled with artificial lims and wearing a heavy armoured suit that restricts him in his movements, wouldn't stand a change during the height of the Jedi. But now, with most of the Jedi dead and the few survivors being hunted and on the run while Vader has the might of the entire empire behind him, Vader is a threat. However, someone as Ahsoka who was shown to be an excellent fighter, very fast and agile, and armed with two lightsabers, should in a real fight defeat him.
     
  13. soundwaverulls

    soundwaverulls Taking a break

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    Your analysis of Obi-Wan's tactics seems accurate, but we don't really see enough of the fight to say with any certainty that he'd win. It was wasn't long after he changed tactics that he sacrificed himself. Vader never really had the opportunity to show off any moves of his own to counter Obi-Wan's more defensive style.

    When Luke won, he wasn't exactly attacking with much speed. Saying that Vader wasn't capable of countering this would imply that Vader has less physical strength than Anakin, which simply isn't true. His suit gives him much more power, and while his connection to the force is lessened, he's still powerful.

    I still think Vader's downfall in the battle was hesitation. Sure, he likely entered the dual knowing that there was chance he'd have to kill Luke, but from before the battle even started, he seemed to lack as much aggression against him as he'd have against others. When the time finally came, he did choose to sacrifice himself to save Luke. It seems likely he was never fully committed to killing him.


    Vader does have experience on his side, even ignoring the time before his injuries. He's spent the last 15 years hunting Jedi. He's had a lot of time to learn to compensate for his suit's shortcomings. Plus he's had Sidious to train him. Ahsoka has spent that time on the run and in hiding, so it seems unlikely that she would've become that much more skilled than she was in the Clone Wars

    Agreed. Also, I think Ahsoka might do very poorly in her first dual, simply out of hesitance to fight her old master. However, I think she'll do better in any rematches (I'm still leaning towards her surviving). Also, Vader has played mind games on several occasions. It seems likely he'd goad Ahsoka on, making her loose her precision.




    I think Vader could definitely defeat a dozen or so Stormtroopers. He may not be fast enough to deflect all their blasts, however his armour, combined with their terrible aim, would make up for that. Then he'd likely use to the force to bombard them with with heavy objects, before finishing any survivors off with his lightsaber, utilizing saber-throws against any who're too far away.

    Lucas said this while making the Prequels. Should that really be considered word of god? Especially now he's no longer in charge. Not to mention, Filoni is Lusas' Padawon, as Lusas himself said. I'm sure they would've discussed it at length while working together, regardless of whether or not they were even using the character while doing so.

    .

    This is all true, but it does show Vader's raw power. While Vader might not be able to perform many good strikes against Ahsoka, anything he does get in will hit hard. There's also the question of if she's powerful enough in the force to resist Vader's force attacks. Chances are, if he does get the chance to concentrate, he could bat her around without touching her, at least a tiny bit.


    It's very difficult to say what would happen in a real fight, when talking about Star Wars. However, the way I look at it is that the only time the movies had Vader not holding back or hesitating was against Obi-Wan, who fought with power, before changing to more defensive tactics. We don't really know how capable of dealing with more speed based assaults he may be, when dedicated to killing his opponent. He does have the advantage of strength when fighting a comparative lightweight like Ahsoka, and his armour would allow him to tank at least a few hits. Combined with his knowledge of her fighting style, his greater experience, and his tendency to mess with opponents' heads, I'm still saying Vader would win.
     
  14. Gordon_4

    Gordon_4 The Big Engine

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    I suppose another way of looking at it is that the prequels and TCW have inflated our sense of what the Jedi were capable of: the OT implies something akin to master martial artists, whereas the PT & CW shows low level superheroics. And whatever Lucas planned, or thought about Star Wars became irrelevant as soon as he cashed the cheque for $4,000,000,000 and now guys like David Filoni are left with the unenviable task of bridging together two sets of films made with totally different sets of expectations and technologies. It's a headache I don't envy.

    Actually, I have an example that provides what I feel would be an accurate representation of the Vader vs. Ahsoka fight: the duel between Oberyn Martell and Gregor Clegane in Game of Thrones.

    While it won't be as bad as that (obviously, this is fucking Disney after all) it's gonna end the same way. I mean really aside from sadism and presumably practicing on Ahsoka the same bullshit lines he tries on Luke, there's no reason for Vader to not use the force to simply snap her neck as soon as he claps eyes on her: but then he is a huge arsehole.
     
  15. JokerFC

    JokerFC Gaelic Hardcase

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    I was just thinking today I would love to see the imperial officer Admiral Screed from Droids being used in Rebels although much more of a badass. I liked his design.......

    really enjoyed that Chopper episode too.
     
  16. Mark

    Mark Just here for the toys

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    This threads gone full fanboy.
     
  17. Gordon_4

    Gordon_4 The Big Engine

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    Don't they all :p 
     
  18. QLRformer

    QLRformer Seeker

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    This will determine the final fate of Ahsoka Tano. What will become of her? Live or die, she will not be the same after meeting her former master.
     
  19. soundwaverulls

    soundwaverulls Taking a break

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    Honestly, I'm glad to be considered a Star Wars fanboy, so thanks.:) 
     
  20. Chopperface

    Chopperface Chadwick Forever

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    You get that from a fan wikia?