STAR WARS - General Topic Discussion

Discussion in 'Movies and Television' started by DarkEnergon22, Jan 21, 2018.

  1. Noideaforaname

    Noideaforaname Pico, let's go up to Zuma

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    With Rey I think it's the lack of defined traits. Like, Luke is the Jedi, Han the pilot, Leia the brains, Chewie the muscle, R2 the hacker, 3PO the translator, etc. -- everyone's got a specialty and they all really struggle against a problem that skill doesn't apply to. Rey gets into a jam and just suddenly is able to solve it now. Even Anakin's whole Chosen One thing didn't grant him with much more than an ego; indeed his whole entire character arc is all about what he can't do.

    I'll always be disappointed by how it wasn't Rey the Force-sensitive sharpshooter and Finn the non-Force-sensitive swordsman. That'd have made for an interesting dynamic, I think.

    I'm curious if there's any actual proof of this. Everyone shares that anecdote of Harrison Ford wanting Han to die in the OT, but I dunno if I've ever seen his actual thoughts going into TFA. I'm tempted to think people just made up this notion that Ford was obsessed with killing off the character.
     
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  2. Autoboticon

    Autoboticon In like a Bot, out like a Con

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    I would chalk it down that Rey's only real stuggle in the trilogy is her past or lack of a family name to live under.

    I too was miffed with her treatment in Force Awakens, but I felt like the following two handled her better, not just with the Dyad prompt giving reason to her level of power, but I found she had the same problems of a gifted kid in school. She's good at what she does but socially as well as emotionally, she's not perfect.

    Various times we see her push to get her desired outcome with her not thinking about others or causing her own problems.

    The entire ST gang each try to be bigger then they are. Finn focuses on being the savior, but soon eases into dependable friend, Poe focuses on being a one-man Resistance but learns what being a leader really takes (kind of) and Rey/Kylo focus on their roles they play within the force until they straightened out.


    But again, its not perfect. The movies could definitely be re-structured with what we saw in RoS and the scrapped concepts to make a much more stable ST.

    Though it is what it is and I still enjoy them for all their rights and wrongs.

    “I think it’s a fitting use of the character. I’ve been arguing for Han Solo to die for about 30 years, not because I was tired of him or because he’s boring, but his sacrifice for the other characters would lend gravitas and emotional weight.”

    Harrison Ford Explains Why He Always Wanted Han Solo To Die - Goliath

    One among many articles about his 2016 interview on the matter.
     
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  3. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    Han dying wasn’t even the problem; it’s how they handed his character and how hallow his demise was.

    Same goes with Luke.

    And I don’t think she was holding the loss of Fisher against LFL. They could have re-written the film to bring Luke back to lead the rebels. But they chose to terminally cuck Skywalker and Bella Legosi Leia.
     
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  4. Autoboticon

    Autoboticon In like a Bot, out like a Con

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    I will say, what isn't hallow is Chewbacca's woeful roars each time.

    Han's death had Chewbacca in a rageful heartbroken shock.

    Leia's death after both having Han and Luke pass, hearing the news he's outlived his best friends and he just falls with the most mournful and guilt filled howl.

    Hurts.

    You know what, Chewie really gets the short end of the stick in this trilogy. C-3P0 too getting more bullied then he ever did with Luke and Han with the likes of Poe. The saying goodbye to his friends line always felt out of place. Though I just relate it to him going through his memory databanks.
     
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  5. Noideaforaname

    Noideaforaname Pico, let's go up to Zuma

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    Thanks! I tried looking it up myself but wasn't finding anything.
     
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  6. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    Yeah, Luke wasn’t a prodigy by any stretch of the imagination.

    He didn’t even know he had any force abilities prior to meeting Ben.
    By the end of the first film his skills weren’t even to the level of parlor tricks.

    The beginning of the second film he had a parlor trick ability. His powers were starting to brew. Then he trained under an actual Jedi Master. And at that still couldn’t even levitate his ship. And then got his ass handed to him by Darth Vader. And then lost his hand.

    Then came the 3rd film where he finally learned how to assemble a light saber. He had matured some, and by the end of the film was barely even a Jedi. Heck, would Luke even be a Jedi at his stage if he wasn’t the only Jedi there was? Probably not. Even a dying Yoda said his training was incomplete.

    Jedi train since youth. Luke was an abridged Jedi.

    Luke was a prodigy... yeah, no.
     
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  7. Autoboticon

    Autoboticon In like a Bot, out like a Con

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    No problem, google algorithms be damned.
     
  8. flamepanther

    flamepanther Interested, but not really

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    Art is never objective, and the people who suggest otherwise are the least trustworthy authorities on it. If any art form were objective, if would cease to be an art and become a science.

    Anyway, this isn't formal critique. This is like when Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King's family opines on what causes he would support today, or when a biopic is praised or criticized by the subject's close family. Or when Paul McCartney and Sean Lennon both say that John would've used autotune if he were alive today. There's generally not much room to snap back at those cases with an "oh yeah, where's your objective analysis?" External scrutiny can never capture what it is to know someone closely. They knew the actual person and we only knew their work and their public persona.

    Marcia Lucas knows Star Wars in a way very few others ever can. She knew its creator very well. She knew the thought process, and more importantly the emotions behind it, because George was always telling her about it and checking his ideas with her. She knows the spirit behind Star Wars at its inception and not just from her personal interpretation of the work. She has a first-hand, gut level sense of what George would or wouldn't have done (and why!) that is a lot more relevant than any sort of labored analysis.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2021
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  9. There D Hood

    There D Hood Well-Known Member

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    Marcia Lucas was an average opinionist, but she was a BRILLIANT editor.
     
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  10. DrTraveler

    DrTraveler Wheeljack, Wheeljack, Wheeljack

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    There’s another thing to point out about Rey. If you toss out TFA, Rey ends up with roughly the same amount of Jedi training as Luke does by the end of TRoS.

    Luke gets roughly a days worth of training from Obi-Wan in ANH. By the end of ANH he’s a gifted pilot, and by the start of ESB he’s capable of moving objects with his mind and sensing things in the force.

    He gets an indeterminate amount of time with Yoda in ESB (I’ve seen it pegged at about a month), and that allows him to stand toe to toe with Vader at least for a while, move objects with his mind easily, and enhance his physical movements. He’s also able to reach out through the force to others.

    There is no indication on film or in any EU materials I’ve ever read that Luke returns to Yoda until he goes to witness Yoda’s death. So on his own he gets to the point he can deflect blaster bolts by RotJ. From all we’ve seen on screen Luke has no more formal training between RotJ and Mandalorian, meaning the hallway scene is all Luke.

    Rey is over the top in TFA. But after TFA she falls more in line with Luke. She gets roughly a week’s worth of training with Luke (more than Luke got with Obi-Wan) and she’s out of her depth with Snoke, and can only take on his Praetorian guard with Kylo’s help. She can move a large quantity of rocks with her mind at the end of TLJ.

    At which point she gets training from Leia for a seizable amount of time. It’s likely more than Luke got with Yoda.

    The Anakin comparison is different. He does get Jedi instruction, but he’s late to it. He’s 9 when he starts and is far far behind everyone. But he catches up and everything indicates he’s probably as powerful as Yoda, if not more powerful.
     
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  11. bagofshhh

    bagofshhh Well-Known Member

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    Luke already was a gifted pilot though. This was established when Obi-Wan told Luke that he heard he was an accomplished pilot, and if the scene hadn't been removed, confirmed again by Biggs before the battle of Yavin.

    The problem that Rey has, that Luke and Anakin don't, is that she had no baseline to start with. When Lucas wrote Luke and Anakin, you get little hints from other characters describing their traits and abilities (not coincidentally they are both good pilots, and mechanic/tinkerers) at the start of their journey. When JJ wrote Rey, he did none of that. All we can rely on is what Rey tells us about herself, and a demonstration of her climbing and scrap-cleaning abilities. It's the whole "mystery box" style of writing JJ likes to use.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
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  12. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    Luke used to target wimp rats in his T-16, so targeting the vent was no big deal.
     
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  13. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Dukeup Nukhead

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    And a quick search on the Star Wars wiki explicitly makes mention that the controls for the T-16 are similar to the X-Wing (both made by Incom) and the cited source is Episode IV itself.
     
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  14. DrTraveler

    DrTraveler Wheeljack, Wheeljack, Wheeljack

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    Oh I'd agree that TFA is a problem. Rey does mention she's worked on the Falcon, and I seem to recall there's a line that's she's flown before. But in TFA she's way too over the top. You can't explain her without trying to point to some sort of quirky force mimic ability.

    She gets more in line with reasonable power levels in TLJ. She spikes in power in TROS when JJ returns to the helm, but at least by then she's had some training to explain how she got to that point.

    Yeah, Luke's piloting ability is established throughout ANH. It's not that out of left field. And in Star Wars, being an excellent pilot out of no where is kinda par for the course. Han and Wedge have some training in the Imperial Academy, but much of the material makes it clear that they already had a substantial amount of skill, without the force to help them.

    Anakin's time as a podracer informs his later piloting skills, much like Luke's time with the Skyhoppers. For Anakin there's the added level of skill implied by the fact that TPM establishes podracing is something no normal human can do, meaning his force abilities are supplementing his natural skill.

    I want to be clear, I'm very much in the camp that Rey is over the top in TFA. JJ has a thing for magic mystery girls. Rey and Sydney from Alias are cut from the same cloth. I'm just saying that once you're past TFA, Rey isn't as far out of line from where Luke and Anakin are in their journeys.
     
  15. Chopperface

    Chopperface Chadwick Forever

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    Ugh, Chewie’s scream when Kylo impaled Han just… stays with me. It probably could’ve been a lot worse, but just the guttural, violent roar coming from him was awful. He got me again in TROS when he found out about Leia, that hurt too.
     
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  16. bagofshhh

    bagofshhh Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. I am pretty sure JJ's writing philosophy is to just throw as much at the audience as quickly as possible. Which can be entertaining in the moment, but when you sit back and really think about some of his ideas, it falls apart.
    So with Rey and the Falcon: she's apparently 19 years old in TFA (I had to look it up). As she and Finn are running she refers to the falcon as a piece of garbage that hasn't flown in years. But then they need it, so they run in, and everything happens to work pretty much perfectly in the falcon (it even starts up!). But then Finn says "we need a pilot!" and Rey replies almost immediately: "I'm A PILOT!" and then proceeds to pull some serious maneuvers to allow them to escape. It's a fun scene.

    But then you think about it. Then you realize that the garbage ship that hasn't run "in years" worked almost flawlessly (flying-wise) so that a teenage girl, who, at best *maybe* flew it two or three years ago (when she was 16 or 17 years old) can fly the falcon as well as we've only seen Han or Lando do. In spite of the fact that both Han and Lando had co-pilots, and both owned the falcon, so they probably had tons more more flight time. But because Rey claims she's a pilot (even though the audience has only seen her basically ride a motorcycle at this point), she can deliver the goods.
    And unfortunately, most everything else Rey does in that movie has no set up, aside when she's climbing walls to escape Starkiller base. That was actually a pay off from her earlier climbing!
     
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  17. wheeljack01

    wheeljack01 Happiness is a warm gun

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    Glad to see others mention Chewy's roars over Han and Leia's death in the sequels. Just heartbreaking, really got me in the theaters.
     
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  18. Tekkaman Blade

    Tekkaman Blade Professor of Animation

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    Yeah it really does.
     
  19. Rodimus Prime

    Rodimus Prime Sola Gratia, Sola Fide TFW2005 Supporter

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    So she is the equivalent of a wu xi protagonist or Final Fantasy blue mage?
     
  20. DrTraveler

    DrTraveler Wheeljack, Wheeljack, Wheeljack

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    I don’t know much about Wu Xi, but a blue mage learns via surviving the attack. Rey seems to just learn by seeing. Which is an ability that by any standard is overpowered. She’s like the force equivalent of Taskmaster from the comics.