STAR WARS - General Topic Discussion

Discussion in 'Movies and Television' started by DarkEnergon22, Jan 21, 2018.

  1. Dolza_Khyron

    Dolza_Khyron Well-Known Member

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    And, the thing is, I actually like Solo and Rogue One movies. Which, I think did all this nostalgia things better. With Rogue One doing it the better of the two. It had all those nostalgia things in it, but they were mostly just window dressing. The sequel trilogy keeps throwing it back in our faces. It rubbed these things in our faces. Heck, the entire episode 7, was all about finding Luke. That was the plot, Finding Luke. They made us want to see more of him with that movie. And, then they disappointed us with the movies we got afterwards.

    But, had they not included that at all, had the plot been about finding Jake Skywalker, I think it'd be a whole lot better movie. Jake, Luke's son or something. He could even be still played by Mark Hamill. That'd I'd be okay with it.

    Remember it is Disney who played these things up. And, it is Disney that put all this nostalgia in our faces. Not us, not me. I did not demand these things, I did not ask for them. Yet, Disney did it anyways. Why? Because playing on nostalgia is Disney's entire business model.
     
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  2. Rodimus Prime

    Rodimus Prime Sola Gratia, Sola Fide TFW2005 Supporter

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    Pablo has lied to and about people for years, and is now considered a cross between an annoyance and a joke. Even before TLJ came out, he'd worn out his welcome in the community. It's not a conspiracy, so much as people saying "Oh, that guy." A better example of a conspiracy was Stan Lee came out in favor of something, and people accused Marvel / Disney of forcing him to do so against his will.
     
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  3. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    Luke was a curmudgeon even after the Falcon left and got slapped by ghost Yoda for being a bitch. So instead of hopping in his X-Wing to offer the Falcon assistance (or better yet: wake up and be himself) fly back in the Falcon and actually see Leia. In Person. And face off with Kyle. In person. And knocked him on his ass and decimated the 1 Order so as to help all 10 rebels from not-Hoth, inspire the Galaxy and lead the new Rebellion because Luke f’ing Skywalker is the biggest force using bad-ass in the galaxy.

    Instead he was a projection that died of force exhaustion.
     
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  4. Dolza_Khyron

    Dolza_Khyron Well-Known Member

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    Yea, it's not really a conspiracy to call it maybe a lie. Maybe Disney's story's changing. After all, like @Noideaforaname already pointed out:

    There story has changed from no George, to George Wanted it. When a story changes, it is usually the result of a lie.

    Yea, yea, that sounds better. Heck, at this point, him dying of a heart attack sounds better, though. Rey arrives, hands him the lightsaber, and Luke dies of a heart attack, and then she has to figure out all the things by herself. Sounds better to me. Then, Rey would actually have to have some character development! Which would be a huge plus for this franchise.
     
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  5. DrTraveler

    DrTraveler Wheeljack, Wheeljack, Wheeljack

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    No I do get it. TLJ isn’t perfect, and I can see folks getting hung up on some of its faults. And there are fans that see the OT as fairy tale and wanted what TFA was selling. If you like TFA, I get being put off by TLJ.

    I’ve heard TLJ be compared to Temple of Doom for the Indiana Jones saga. And that makes sense. Temple breaks a lot of the Indiana Jones conventions and ultimately makes the other movies better for it. But it is hands down my least favorite, and the one I refuse to watch again. Despite that I know it’s a favorite for a lot of other Jones fans.

    So if TLJ is your personal Temple of Doom I get that. But I think it’s an important one as it closes off Luke’s story, moves the films back onto the heroic arc, and sets up a reason for the ST as a whole to exist.

    As for Luke’s method of death, it’s not all that different than Obi Wan’s death really. Obi Wan could have fought out that battle with Vader, and maybe even beat him. But he sacrifices himself to inspire Luke and allow him, Leia, Han, and Chewie to escape with R2 and the Death Star plans. Luke takes a similar path. He could run out there and take on Kylo, and maybe kill him. Or he can can do something different and surrender to the Force.
     
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  6. Dolza_Khyron

    Dolza_Khyron Well-Known Member

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    Idk, if I could compare it to Temple of Doom, I mean, I actually like that movie.

    Here's the thing about TFA, I didn't like that movie either. I thought it was super bland, and extremely boring. It was basically a repeat of everything I've already seen before. But, the one thing keeping me interested in these movies was seeing Luke. And, that is where the disappointment started. When we got to Luke, credits. But, it caught my curiosity. My curiosity is what got me to watch TLJ in the first place. And, that was met with, not the Temple Of Doom, but more like, in my personal experience, more like... the beginning of Terminator Dark Fate. I think that's more of an accurate comparison.

    The thing about Obi Wan's death is, I was introduced to that character before the prequels, and all the other things about him came out. I was introduced to that character when I watched the OT before the edits. The edits is where my disappointment in Star Wars began. Ever since then, it's been a downward spiral of disappointment. TLJ, was just the latest in disappointments at that time. I'd say it is the biggest disappointment in the franchise, but at least it's not an edited nightmare like Rise Of The Skywalker was. Which had lots of things that went no where.

    So, when Obi Wan died, I knew nothing of that character. Which is why it is done better. Maybe had I watched the prequels first, I'd be able to agree with you there. But, personally, it was very different than seeing Luke's death. Obi Wan was a character I didn't even know until that movie. And, Luke is a character I had three movies, and 40 something years worth of EU stuff to get to know.

    Think of it like this, think of it like you get a dog. You have that dog for years, and years, you love that dog, then that dog gets sick. You take the dog to the vet. And, instead of helping that dog, they just shoot it. That's my experience with Luke.
     
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  7. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    The deaths of Luke and Obi Wan were nothing alike:
    1) Ben wasn’t Grandpa Simpson.
    2) Ben faced off against Vader face to face.
    3) Ben died because he allowed it.
    4) Ben’s death was noble and not from force exhaustion.

    And TLJ wasn’t Temple of Doom; if anything it was Crystal Skull.

    Or that Highlander movie.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
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  8. Dolza_Khyron

    Dolza_Khyron Well-Known Member

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    And, let's just say for the sake of argument, it is exactly 1/1 like Ben's death. This is just 'what aboutism." What if I don't like it there, either? What if that is also terrible. Just because someone else does it, doesn't make it good. Just like, not everything the OT does/did is automatically great, either.

    If the OT did the same things the sequel trilogy did, I'd hate it too. You're not propping one up, all you're doing is pulling them both down.
     
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  9. DrTraveler

    DrTraveler Wheeljack, Wheeljack, Wheeljack

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    It’s ok. You’re welcome to your opinions. We’ve been through it enough in this thread I know no one is changing anyone’s mind. I like TLJ and enjoy the ST as a whole because my kids enjoy it. That said I’d probably rank TLJ as solidly middle of the pack when it comes to the theatrical live action releases, with AotC as the worst, Empire as the best. Of the 11 films it’s probably 5th or 6th in my list, with the top half including TESB, ANH RO, RotS, RotJ, then TLJ. And below it TFA, TPM, Solo, TRoS and AotC.

    I’d imagine a lot of us have lists that aren’t that different in order.
     
  10. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    People are allowed to be ‘inconsistent’. It’s part of being an individual.
    Besides, a person thinks they are consistent but another might think they are inconsistent.
     
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  11. Dolza_Khyron

    Dolza_Khyron Well-Known Member

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    Yea, of course we're all going to have a different list. I know that Empire is the best, but it certainly isn't/wasn't my favorite. That is by far the Return Of The Jedi. Definitely my favorite until it got edited. Now, I can't even watch the OT without all the edits being wildly distracting. Due the fact that I watched the OT hundreds of times as a kid before then. It's been impossible for me to unsee the edits.

    It's like listening to a song, in which the lyrics go have been altered. In your head, you expect it to go one direction, and in the music, or in this case, the film, it does something different. So, I don't really have a favorite anymore. At least not movie wise.

    I can point that my favorite thing Star Wars is now Republic Commando, though.

    Yea, they are allowed to be inconsistent for the most part, too. It's about the overall experience, giving us entertainment. For me personally, if I am entertained the whole time, I don't really care what you do, or how you do it, just as long as I am being entertained.

    I only care if it is subtracting/distracting from my entertainment. Then, I care. It's hurting my overall experience, so I am going to talk about it.
     
  12. DrTraveler

    DrTraveler Wheeljack, Wheeljack, Wheeljack

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    Wait, I should be clear, I’m not arguing Ben’s “I’ll become more powerful than you could possibly imagine” act is a good idea. We snicker about it when the kids and I watch it.

    But one lesson you get from the PT is that for the Jedi, aggressive action meant you lost. Yoda drills into Luke “Knowledge and Defense.” And after the PT we know why. It’s cool as hell to see Yoda pick up a lightsaber and go after Dooku and Palpatine. But it’s ultimately futile in both cases. He fails to capture Dooku, and he doesn’t beat Sidious. And by agreeing to fight the clone wars the Jedi are ultimately destroyed.

    Again this even goes back to how Luke beats the Emperor. He doesn’t fight him. That moment he throws away the lightsaber is one of the most powerful in the series. Ultimately if Luke shows up and kicks Kylo’s ass, it undoes everything we’ve learned about the Jedi in Star Wars.

    What Luke does is very very Jedi. He doesn’t show up and kill everything that moves. He distracts. He sacrifices. And he saves lives. And ultimately he inspires.

    I know we all have different mental images of what Star Wars is. But what Luke does is totally in line with what the movies George made are trying to show and tell us. And it’s ok not to like it. But it is what Star Wars ultimately shows us a Jedi should be doing.
     
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  13. Dolza_Khyron

    Dolza_Khyron Well-Known Member

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    Idk, I'm not trying to say he should kill everything that moves. I just think, idk, maybe he should have done something before all this happened, rather than sitting on a rock for years, hiding away, because he failed. And, maybe Yoda and Ben should have done something too.

    But, instead everybody just decides to hide. Maybe it's the Jedi that sucks. Part of the reason why I'm disappointed in this franchise. They keep focusing on the space wizards who are terrible at their jobs. Again, probably why my favorite thing is Republic Commando.

    I like Star Wars, but the Jedi/Sith are by far my least favorite part. Again, probably why I like Rogue One and Solo. Also, probably why I liked Clone Wars. Because, let's face it, the main character of those shows, are the clones.

    Maybe it's the Jedi themselves, that suck. Your non-aggressive ways are just making things worse, Jedi's.
     
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  14. GuardianAngel87

    GuardianAngel87 Well-Known Member

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    This guy gets it. I honestly couldn't said it better myself.
     
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  15. Noideaforaname

    Noideaforaname Pico, let's go up to Zuma

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    I think the disappointment with Luke goes deeper than just Luke. Him 180'ing on his personality and dying the moment he gets his shit back together sucks, but then on top of that the Galaxy as a whole is kinda just garbage. Every aspect of RotJ's cathartic ending has been decimated, none of the old cast had happy lives, the Empire is just back for some reason, the new characters at best are left to repeat the OT again, what new things they brought to the table were tossed out already, the world building is nonexistent, the pandering is blindingly obvious, and they have no goddamn clue what they want with their main villain. In isolation I think Luke's story could work, but a lot of people may have been hoping he'd "save" the trilogy, which just made the reveal even more painful.
     
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  16. Dolza_Khyron

    Dolza_Khyron Well-Known Member

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    Yea, yea, that's part of it too. Rise Of The Skywalker turned the entire rest of the film series into nothing more than just meaningless filler.

    Luke is dead. Han is dead. Leia is dead. The bloodlines are gone. And, now the Emperor is a space ghost. Emperor wins. But, on the plus side, at least the Emperor is happy, now that he's a space ghost...

    giphy13122.gif

    His bloodline is now the only one that remains. And, Rey did exactly that thing he wanted her to do. Which was kill him. And, she did. Turns out the whole saga was just the Emperor daring people to kill him.

    And, Rey finally did. Possibly! We've seen him die by falling into an exploding Death Star before, after all.

    At this point, I'm not even convinced he's dead. Or, was ever alive to begin with.
     
  17. SharkyMcShark

    SharkyMcShark Hi. I'm better than you

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    The fact that most people don't actually get this leads me to the conclusion that all most people really care about is lightsabers, lasers and flips. Every time I read some vartion of 'HE SHOULD HAVE GOT IN HIS X WING AND GONE THERE HIMSELF' I die a bit inside.
     
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  18. DrTraveler

    DrTraveler Wheeljack, Wheeljack, Wheeljack

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    I hope you never read the old EU, because it also undoes the ending of RotJ. Those years after sucked hard. And the galaxy was constantly in crisis. Within about two generations the Jedi order falls again and is all but gone by the Legacy era.
     
  19. Max Rawhide

    Max Rawhide Rolin Rolin Rolin...uh, never mind

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    Don't get me wrong, I get what you're aiming at and I definitely agree that what Luke did is indeed very Jedi-like, but at the same time it's a bad choice from a story telling point of view and from a viewers point of...uh, view.

    Kenobi sacrified himself. I also think he likely could've won (Kenobi fights like an elderly Kendo fighter: always on the defense and stepping back, and in the end the attacker becomes exhausted and makes a mistake: Kendoka's in their 70's win this way from young fighters). But he realises that it's more important that Luke lives and receives guidance and thus he allowed himself to die.

    But he was there in person, there was a heroism to his death. Luke appearing their, holding off Kylo, giving the Resistance a chance to flee (even making them think there was way out the way Luke had entered)...all this is great. But then he dies somewhere completely different from exhaustion. Yes, his actions are great and they had result, but because of this his death dissapoints. The story and the character would've benefitted from actually being there. Have Luke be the one who force lifts an escape route and have him die in a heroic last stand to sacrifice what's really important.


    Absolutely. Even though in many ways TLJ killed Disney Star Wars for me, in many ways TLJ is the best SW movie Disney made (save for that ridiculous Canto part which made the movie too long and contributed nothing to the story). It's inventive, it does new things (even if things seem familiar), it redefines characters, and at the end there's a very interesting situation. Not so much with the good guys side (the Republic is gone and the Resistance is likely wiped out: just the Falcon with the few people on it), but most definitely on the side of the First Order. Kylo in command with his character is a move with great potential. Especially if the destroyed fleet we saw was their main fleet (which I don't think was established in the movie, but then that's not saying much). This could've been very interesting.

    But it forgot that it was the second part of a trilogy. All the things it did right would've been great if this was the first movie. It would've set up a very interesting situation, especially if they had also killed Leia (making the Resistance leader-less) and if Rey had come from the Island and didn't know if these people were the right ones. Going from that, would've been great. But as a middle part of a trilogy, TLJ is a disaster.
     
  20. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    the whole purpose of TLJ- if not the ST- was to make Luke a failure.

    And if I’m not mistaken they later incorporated it into the books the Obi Wan and Yoda knew Luke would be a failure but chose to train him anyway. Lack of options I guess.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
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