STAR WARS - General Topic Discussion

Discussion in 'Movies and Television' started by DarkEnergon22, Jan 21, 2018.

  1. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Droppin' Space Colonies

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    Right, and what are your credentials that somehow mean you know better than other people what good writing is, to the point you're telling other people that they aren't allowed having objective opinions?

    Are you going to say that the Star Wars Holiday Special is well written, too?

    And you're ignoring yet more of the setting that explains this. Setting aside the obvious 'underdogs against numerical odds' trope that's always played up (I.E. in Transformers (2007), there's seven Decepticons to five Autobots. This is by design), the fact is that the Rebellion was getting supported by the companies that produced these supplies and starships in the interest of toppling the Empire and its bad-for-business regulations on free market trade. There probably were super wealthy individuals also backing Rogue Squadron for similar ends. The fighters may not have been cheap, but one X-Wing was worth a dozen TIE fighters at minimum, especially given several of the most noteworthy Rogue Squadron pilots were Empire defectors, meaning the best pilots on both sides had similar training.

    And you know that's the Falcon...how? I already said that the Falcon was a YT-1300 freighter model, meaning it wasn't a unique-one off ship when first built by Corellean Engineering. The YT-1300s in the lore were some of the most successful ships of their time specifically because of the customizability and multi-role utility, ranging from freight hauling to literally space tugboat duty.

    And age means nothing if the performance is still top tier. Just look at the F-15 Eagle fighter jet - that thing was introduced in the early 70s but is so well designed that its still in service to this day just with moderate upgrades, nearly 50 years later. The F-22, in comparison, was pretty much a failure, and the F-35 has yet to really prove itself as a viable long-term replacement. Or to use an older example; steam engines. You need at least five modern diesel locomotives to match the hauling power of the legendary Union Pacific 4-8-8-4 Big Boy.

    Or, one of my personal favorite examples - Bravo November. This thing managed to survive the Falklands war with absolutely none of its support equipment or spare parts and to this day probably is the most decorated aircraft still in service with the British armed forces.

    Additionally, the idea its an outdated ship works to its advantage psychologically by people assuming its capabilities are lower than what they actually are.

    What in the world makes you think these kinds of ships are not common? Its freakin outer space, there would be billions of freighters.

    I tracked a clip of the 'garbage dump' scene and you are right in that the Falcon does not do a jump, I misremembered how the scene ended with the reveal that the Slave I was on its trail.

    But official sources still state that it does have a hyperdrive so the idea it never had one ever is still incorrect.
     
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  2. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP My personal sense of scale

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    Multi-quote is a thing, dude, or at least edit your posts.

    Actually, they are cheap, relatively speaking. That's why the Rebellion uses them. Y-Wings are literally salvaged Clone Wars era units stripped down and tuned up to keep up with modern fighters. The Rebellion doesn't have the funds for expensive, state-of-the-art ships.

    I don't know why you're arguing actual provable facts that have existed in Star Wars long before now. It's well-documented that Hyperdrives are commonplace, and ships without them are an exception, not the rule.

    Yes, they are, by the mere fact that they are cargo hauling ships. That's like you saying semi trucks or shipping freighters aren't super common. How do you think stuff gets around in Star Wars?

    What is this even trying to argue? The hyperdrive broke because the Falcon is an old, patchworked vessel Han has been customizing for years. That has nothing to do with the state of hyperdrives in Star Wars.

    None of those were even remotely like the Holdo maneuver.

    No, it isn't. Like I said, Interdictors showed up in Rebels doing exactly what they did.

    Uhh, because it was malfunctioning. the fail safe is to disable the hyperdrive before it hits a planet, not after. Again, of course that'd destroy the ship, but it wouldn't cause some giant kinetic explosion.

    You're just giving examples of all the times hyperspace jumps only ever posed a risk to the ship jumping and never surrounding bodies. Ships cannot hit other ships in hyperspace. They can sure as hell hit planets, though. You've done nothing to disprove that.

    How? It is, almost verbatim, what Han warned about in ANH.

    Also, that violated everything you knew about Hyperspace but the Holdo shit didn't? You're not making sense.

    It's the same idea, though. They cause nearby hyperdrives to disable the same way they would near a planetary body. I'm sure the 'science' is simplified for the show but it's the same idea.

    Jumping from inside a gravity well was never an issue, since there's not as much risk starting from a stand still and leaving a gravitational mass. It's not wise, and again the fail safe will almost always prevent it, but it's not what the fail safe is for, which is to stop from hitting a planet you can't see coming at you.

    How is that evidence to your argument? That came out after TLJ.

    Dude, you're just wrong on this one. There's no evidence of this maneuver ever being done prior, no matter how many "hints" at the possibility, the shear time frame and and scope of the galaxy and the real-life years since SW started and how many writers have contributed, it's pretty clear it was bullshit made up for TLJ because Rain Johnson didn't care about Star Wars canon. And there's a reason, to avoid stupid shit like this.

    And even if it was true, that just makes it all the more stupid that they didn't do it earlier in TLJ, like to destroy the Dreadnought without losing their entire bomber squadron.

    Wait, that's what Traveler was debating? No way, the Falcon jumps in ANH, there's no way he's actually trying to say that.
     
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  3. Pharoid

    Pharoid Time Traveling Robot TFW2005 Supporter

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    Holdo Maneuver argument is bullshit. It takes Holdo a while to fire up the hyper-drive. It’s Hux’s fault the maneuver works cause he’s too fucking pompous to move out of the way or get the shields up and ignores the attack. Lot’s of typing and explaining doesn’t replace paying attention in a movie.
     
  4. prowl07

    prowl07 Well-Known Member

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    Hoth and Bespin are in the same sector of the Outer Rim Territories, so the Falcon can make the trip without using the hyperdrive.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2020
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  5. RetrogradeMercury

    RetrogradeMercury Well-Known Member

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    Guys, all this stuff is made up. nerds lol
     
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  6. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Droppin' Space Colonies

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    To be fair, the Super Star Destroyer isn't exactly something that looks like it could move out of the way easily. It's a big, stupid thing that honestly only existed to be a giant target for hyperspace ramming. Everything that actually happened on the ship could easily have been set on a regular Star Destroyer no problem.
     
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  7. Pharoid

    Pharoid Time Traveling Robot TFW2005 Supporter

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    Sure I guess. I am not exactly sure how size effects things in SW space. There’s no atmospheric resistance so... move it. They do in the OT. I just know the movie lays out that Hux ignores Holdo’s attack until it’s too late. They could take evasive action and or pound the ship to pieces with laser batteries. They don’t.

    Hyperspace attack seems to be somewhat ineffective unless you aren’t paying attention. In regards to hitting big ships with smaller ships X-Wings impact on the surface of the DeathStar... so not much effect there but one suicide run from an A-Wing can devastate the Executor (because it has no secondary bridge). SW go figure.
     
  8. Noideaforaname

    Noideaforaname Pico, let's go up to Zuma

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    [​IMG]
     
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  9. DrTraveler

    DrTraveler Wheeljack, Wheeljack, Wheeljack

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    Never said it doesn’t have one. But ESB does establish that the Falcon’s drive is shot. It can’t make the jump to hyperspace.

    BTW, this is a very old and well known plot hole. I recall talking with friends about it in the 90’s. There have been a lot of attempts made to explain how the Falcon gets to Bespin, where it must be in relation to Hoth, etc. But the movie itself makes it clear that the Falcon’s hyperdrive is shot. Completely shot. It’s interesting because there’s film critique about the fact the Falcon can’t jump when the audience expects it to and wants it to, which makes the jump at the end so exciting.

    As far as how common hyperdrives are, it’s an old idea that they’re t as common as we think. The old West End games made a big deal about how expensive a ship was to acquire. You pretty much had to have one in Star Wars, but getting one is a big deal. Smugglers go into debt to Hutts to a level that rivals a home mortgage today. If the Rebellion issued your character one it meant you were really on the hook to the Rebellion. No side adventures for you. KotOR also makes a big deal about getting a ship. It’s a pretty major mission.

    We think it’s common because they’re so crucial to the plot. But the fact Obi Wan and Luke have to go find a pilot and a ship establishes right from the word go this isn’t a common place thing, easily acquired. The prequels also show how only the Jedi (who aren’t as numerous as you might expect) and the major players have hyperdrive capable personal ships.

    Again, it’s easy to understand why a person could think they’re common place. But there are a lot of clues they really aren’t. It’s a lot like Lightsabers. They’re very very rare, despite the fact we see so many of them.
     
  10. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Droppin' Space Colonies

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    I've tried to go back in the thread and figure out where exactly the Falcon having a busted hyperdrive during one film is at all relevant to the idea that nobody ever tried the Holdo Manuver for as long as hyperspace capable ships have existed.

    Well, the majority of background people in Star Wars probably aren't traveling between planets on a regular basis. Hyperspace capable ships are probably like widebody aircraft these days - they exist and cost a hell of a lot, but nobody considers it impossible to simply secure transport between countries on one despite not actually owning a widebody aircraft.

    Except this is only limiting the idea of utilizing hyperspace on a civilian level. Why civilians would be trying to chuck sub-light ordinance at each other is beyond me, but that was never the scope of this discussion.

    We're talking the galactic armed forces, which would have the money and resources to waste on ships with hyperdrive, because they would already be buying more simply as spare parts.
     
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  11. DrTraveler

    DrTraveler Wheeljack, Wheeljack, Wheeljack

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    The Hyperdrive on the Falcon in ESB came up because some asked about the Falcon jumping to light speed in the asteroid belt. It doesn’t. Then like all Star Wars debates it took on a life of its own from there.

    As for using a hyperspace capable missile when at war, maybe it’s just not cost efficient? The one time we see hyperspace ramming, it’s using a capital ship to cripple another ship. In the real world capital ships are so expensive that captains tend to be very careful about putting them in danger.

    But what about smaller ships? We dont know honestly. But I don’t think it breaks the universe. Hyperspace capable small craft aren’t widely available until the Galactic Civil War. In the Clone Wars we see some developed at the tail end of it (Y-Wings and the later model Jedi Starfighter). It may be it’s just not viable in the Clone Wars era.

    In the Galactic Civil War, we’ve seen in other media (Rebels, the marvel comics) that the Rebellion is pretty cash strapped. And they don’t have a lot of large ships which means it’s probably not an attractive option for the Empire. We also know that the Imperial research went primarily towards the Death Star(s), which was a major frustration for folks like Thrawn. The Emperor liked showy tech.

    That’s not unrealistic. The US continues to operate aircraft carriers when every tactician I’ve read suggests pivoting towards missile boats. Sometimes we just like showy stuff rather than the practical.

    I’d also add, given a choice between giving a missile a hyperdrive and an X-Wing one, I’d give it to the X-Wing. In the old EU it wasn’t impossible for an X-Wing with a skilled pilot to take out a star destroyer. An X-Wing can fly multiple hit and run missions and a missile gets to be deployed once.

    As for the ST era? Who knows? None of that makes sense, despite how much I like TLJ. When Han jumped through a planetary shield I gave up on it making sense. Holdo crashes the Raddish into the First Order flag ship out of desperation. I honestly don’t know why they don’t do that with each and every ship they abandon as the final act of desperation. I’ll freely concede that’s a plot hole not easily explained away.

    One last thing: it appears the set up for High Republic is a ship breaking up in hyperspace setting up a multi-sector disaster. It may be that doing something like what Holdo did is just stupidly stupidly reckless. Like she may have just screwed over multiple planets reckless.
     
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  12. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Droppin' Space Colonies

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    Ah, right, that.

    That argument doesn't make sense because nothing is cost efficient at first. Prototypes are not cost efficient, they are proof of concept. But if the potential for ramming at lightspeed is exponential - as proven by Holdo smashing the entire FO fleet in one go - then somebody would have figured this out already.

    No, you've completely ignored the fact that hyperspace was available to Clone War era small craft, they just needed the hyperspace rings to do it. Which basically was the same mass combined as two small craft.

    "Not an attractive option for the Empire"

    Uh, excuse me? This is the same Empire that built the Death Star, when it absolutely did not need to, because really all it amounted to was Palpatine's ego centralizing all his power in one place in a big intimidating battle station. Sure, it could blow up planets, but blowing up planets isn't exactly that smart an idea given resources have to come from somewhere in the universe - this isn't Warhammer 40K where Exterminatus has to be used semi-reguarly to purge planets of Chaos corruption or Tyranids or Orks or whatever can infest entire planets.

    See, you act like hyperspace projectiles are 'too expensive' yet somehow you then do a 180 and do this?

    The reason Aircraft Carriers are still used is because they are literally floating airstrips, meaning they are multi-role and not simply dedicated to a single purpose. And they are only just now phasing out the Nimitz class carriers from 1975.

    And this has nothing to do with putting hyperspace on projectiles, because you're somehow saying that an X-wing sized projectile piloted by a droid would cost more than an X-wing sized X-wing which would have an Astromech droid support position and the need for a trained human pilot. Training costs money and mistakes can be made. Droid missiles would pretty much be fire and forget.

    Right, so apparently you don't understand why ICBMs exist, either, since it's largely the same principle. We could simply just equip a ton of bomber planes and go carpet bomb whatever we want, costing time in planning, training, equipping the plane with munitions, and the plane having to spend hours going there and back.

    Or we just launch an ICBM which is ready to go after a few code entries and flies at supersonic speeds, meaning the enemy has no time to react.

    I'm not even bothering with High Republic because that's Disney trying to salvage their little shitshow. Nobody wanted that crap and it will all probably be retconned out of existence anyway if those Veil of the Force rumors pan out.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2020
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  13. DrTraveler

    DrTraveler Wheeljack, Wheeljack, Wheeljack

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    I’m not sure the hyperspace rings undermines my argument. It shows that hyperdrives were important enough to share, rather than piece out to ships individually. The order kept multiple rings parked in orbit for use, which would be silly if you could just easily put them on small crafts.

    As for the Empire, Palpatine’s focus on big showy tech and the fact the Rebels don’t have targets worth hyperspace missiles gives you an explanation as to why you wouldn’t do it, if you were the Empire. I suspect it’s not cost efficient, but it could just as easily be it’s not worth it for tactical reasons. Rebels makes the case the Empire simply was not interested at all in star fighter tech. Thrawn has to actively fight for the Tie Defenders, which would have likely ended the Rebellion outright if they’d been deployed in large numbers. And when he disappears the project is scrapped entirely. It just seems no one in the Empire cared. Why would middle technology be any different?
     
  14. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Droppin' Space Colonies

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    Yeah, that's why they built a bigger one. The Thrawn stuff doesn't even count since you're throwing out the EU just like Disney.
     
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  15. DrTraveler

    DrTraveler Wheeljack, Wheeljack, Wheeljack

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    Thrawn is in Rebels. And in Rebels he’s just as opposed to the Death Star as he is in the old EU. Zahn was allowed to write a new Thrawn trilogy for the new Canon too.

    Rebels and the new Thrawn trilogy lay out that the Empire’s focus on big showy tech that inspires fear was just as much a weakness in the new cannon as in the old EU. I still suspect it’s not cost efficient for the empire to build hyperspace missiles, but that doesn’t have to be the only reason. The empire was simply not interested in developing starfighter tech. Missiles likely wouldn’t have fared much better.

    As an aside: the Tie Interceptor was developed in the old EU as a specific counter to the X-Wing, and even then the Empire has to be dragged kicking and screaming into it. I don’t think we know the reason for it being designed in the new canon yet.

    On the Rebellion side, they were interested in starfighter tech as it’s asymmetrical. The B-Wing is specifically designed as a blockade buster. So they’d have had reason to develop hyperspace missiles. The only clue we have as to why that doesn’t happen is again in Rebels. The Phantom doesn’t get a hyperdrive until sometime in season 2 or 3 and it’s treated as a very big deal. Like huge. It’s a game changer and something Hera clearly wanted for the Phantom for a long time. That hints again that this tech simply isn’t that cheap.
     
  16. Rodimus74

    Rodimus74 Well-Known Member

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    Just announced.

    UNTITLED STAR WARS (Disney) previously dated on 12/16/22 moves to 12/22/23

    UNTITLED STAR WARS (Disney) previously dated on 12/20/24 moves to 12/19/25

    UNTITLED STAR WARS (Disney) previously dated on 12/18/26 moves to 12/17/27
     
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  17. Mglaighton120

    Mglaighton120 Well-Known Member

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    My guess is that Taika’s is the 2023 one and they’re gonna delay it again because of Thor 4. Unless these 3 are going to be a trilogy and they haven’t dated Taika’s yet
     
  18. Incepticon

    Incepticon This place ain't what it used to be...

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    Looks like another trilogy schedule to me - probably the already announced Rian Johnson one.

    Taika said this week that he JUST started writing his.
     
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  19. Tekkaman Blade

    Tekkaman Blade Professor of Animation

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    There may be no trilogy, rumor has it they are just waiting out the clock till the end of the year for Kathleen Kennedy's contract to end, then they will announce other projects. Some of the previously announced ones may not survive. Taika's is probably safe.
     
  20. Mglaighton120

    Mglaighton120 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, plus he’s still tweaking the Love and Thunder script. As a Rian Johnson fan I really hope it’s his trilogy, but I’m still worried it may not happen. Although they haven’t officially cancelled it yet so we’ll see.