STAR WARS - General Topic Discussion

Discussion in 'Movies and Television' started by DarkEnergon22, Jan 21, 2018.

  1. ABH1979

    ABH1979 Veteran TFW2005 Supporter

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    Does Mothma really just disband the Alliance willfully, or was she urged to return those forces back to their home systems, by those local governments? (Honestly asking -- I haven't read any of these books)
     
  2. Max Rawhide

    Max Rawhide Well-Known Member

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    That, I think would be the best possible explanation. It wouldn't mean that the fleet is destroyed, just that they haven't had the time to reorganise themselves after what would be a devastating attack on the command structure.

    (However, TLJ does hint to the FO now being in complete control with nothing of the Republic remaining, when in TFA the FO was just a fringe operation that wasn't taken seriously by the New Republic.)
     
  3. General Magnus

    General Magnus Da Custodes of the Emprah

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    It´s a mix of A and B but she was really pushing for it. She doens´t want a powerful centralized military due to fear of repeating the Empire´s ways.
     
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  4. TattooedRobot

    TattooedRobot A Very Stable Genius TFW2005 Supporter

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    You are missing the fact that StarKiller, as stupid as it is, is a NEW weapon. The NR would obviously not know this could happen in the immediacy and totality in which it does. The NR isn’t stupid in Fleet positioning because they don’t know the FO has a weapon like this. And as stated TLJ takes place immediately after TFA.
     
  5. Max Rawhide

    Max Rawhide Well-Known Member

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    So, if (for example) Iran has a new weapon that nobody has heard off, and destroys every USA capitol city in one fell swoop… all the US Naval ships out on the sea are also destroyed?

    Because knowledge or not of a new weapon, fleets by definition are not kept in port (or on a planet or in orbit around them) unless a specific needs arises to do so. Fleets are deployed, because that is the nature of a fleet. They'r out on patrol near the border or protecting overseas assets or whatever else comes up. Just look at the current US Naval ships. There will be some in port, but the majority is out on the sea and destroying Washington and every USA port will have no impact on their existence.

    Likewise, whether or not the New republic knew or could know about this new (agreed very dumb) weapon, it is unrealistic that they would have their entire fleet stationed around these few planets. The fleet would be out on patrol or guarding or enforcing something elsewhere. You could argue that a portion of the fleet would in orbit around these planets because Star Wars is a universe with wars in it, but part of the plot of TFA is that the New Republic denies the threat (or even existence) of the First Order, thus they'd have very little reason to station too much of their fleet near the core planets (protection), which would mean (again) that the majority of the fleet would be anywhere else but in orbit around these planets, and thus not destroyed. Because they'd have to pretty near the planets to also be destroyed: if they were on a neighbouring planet of patrolling the solar system, they'd be safe.

    It has nothing to with knowledge or being stupid. Space fleets of a large galactic organisation simply aren't all kept in orbit around a few planets. They're deployed at all times. Thus even destroying several core planets at once should have little to no effect on the existence of a space fleet.

    (Don't know if you're a Star Trek fan, but in Star Trek Earth is more or less the capital of the Federation and there are very few ships stationed near Earth. They're all out patroling Federation space or guarding the border or exploring new space.)
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
  6. MatrixOfWumbo

    MatrixOfWumbo I see you

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    I'm guessing they were speaking practically, as with no proper military equal the First Order could now waltz into any system they pleased and conquer it. But logistically, all that waltzing would take longer than the time the Supremacy was hounding the Resistance Fleet. By the time the Resistance got off Crait the First Order was still mopping up, though I imagine losing Snoke made for a wrinkle.

    It wasn't that the Republic didn't take the First Order seriously, it's that there was actually a subset of the government that supported their legitimacy as an independent faction, and the new government was under pressure not to just be a second Empire and quash the opposition through violence (this was a problem in the early days of the EU Republic as well) We - and apparently they - didn't know the extent of the First Order's military capabilities because logically they would just be a husk of the Empire. But secretly a number of people who were likely quite comfortable during Palpatine's reign were bankrolling the comeback tour...

    I would also guess that Snoke, with his gold bathrobes and lavish red Kabuki set throne room, had some sort of war chest for the First Order to dip into once they fell under his leadership. Dude seems like he was a bit more into the money than the ideology anyway.
     
  7. Max Rawhide

    Max Rawhide Well-Known Member

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    Makes sense. Now if only they had put that in the movie instead of some vague comments about the existence of Starkiller Base meaning that the Republic would now have to take the Resitance and the threat of the FO seriously.

    Which brings me back to...
     
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  8. TattooedRobot

    TattooedRobot A Very Stable Genius TFW2005 Supporter

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    The reason the US keeps ships deployed is projection of power and speed to battle. I see no reason why a SW Naval Fleet would necessarily need to behave in the same way. The Fleet would have hyper-drives making them able to get almost anywhere in the galaxy in mere moments. The US would never need to send a battle-group to Mediterranean, on constant rotation, if we could simply drop a Battle Group there in mere minutes. I have no idea why the Fleet was massed or if it was massed in multiple separate locations, but I do know it was destroyed because that’s what they told in the movie and showed it happen. Earth-bound military tactics are only mildly relevant when dealing with sci-fo.
     
  9. MatrixOfWumbo

    MatrixOfWumbo I see you

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    You don't have to read anything, just like a movie doesn't have to answer every question you might have about it. If you're still interested in learning more after the movie, you can read the book. If you aren't, then you won't. We've had many circuitous conversations on this thread about the way the ST uses ancillary media to balance the desire for a more complex story than the OT with the need to not big it down in exposition like the PT.

    What does make it into the movie is the bare minimum of what they needed to convey: Republic supports Resistance, First Order hates Resistance.


    The Republic was also not at war, while the US has been involved in at least two at any given time in the last 30-40 years.
     
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  10. Max Rawhide

    Max Rawhide Well-Known Member

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    If it's on screen then it's cannon and we have to accept it...until a later writer retcons it. And considering at the end of TLJ the Resistance has no ships and been reduced to a handful of members, they need a fleet. I wouldn't be surprised if RoS has some part of the fleet show up that was stationed elsewhere.

    But I've never been strong on accepting something in a movie or series on face value, especially if it doesn't make sense. There are too many examples of movie/tv writers that want to tell a certain story or tell a story in a certain way, that they throw common sense out of the window: they make a claim and expect you to accept it, when often it is highly illogical or flies in the face of common sense. Abrams is that sort of a writer/producer.


    Actually, that's incorrect.

    Although elements to it aren't consisted presented throughout (all) media, hyperspace very clearly isn't near instanteneous travel. It's extremely fast, but it takes time (e.g. ANH with Chewie and R2 playing a game and Luke getting his first training). Plus, not every system can be reached by a single jump, requiring mulitple jumps (with calculation in between) thus taking more time. Furthermore, although not consistently shown that way, but you can't jump into hyperspace anywhere you like: you're limited to specific entry points (but this differs per story, depending on the story the writer wants to tell). And finally, there are Interdictor cruisers that can block hypersapce routes.

    A fleet in the SW universe stationed only at the core systems could thus not guarantee that they'd arrive at troublespots in time or anything close to on time: there's travel time, there's the possibilities of multiple jumps, there's the possibiliy of no hyperspace lanes in the immediate vicinity, and the risk that in case of an attack/invasion, the enemy has blocked the hyperspace route. All this is also possible with a fleet that's spread out, but the risk is made smaller (especially the last point).

    Even in the SW universe it makes no sense for a fleet to be stationed in it's entirity at one location.[/quote]
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
  11. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP AKA Beve Stuscemi

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    Don't count.

    A movie needs to work on its own, otherwise its worthless.

    Except TLJ rather flatly explains that, no, there isn't.

    The Republic was, like, three or four planets in close proximity, and destroying them apparently eliminated the whole operation. That's so fucking stupid I still can't really believe it.

    It absolutely has to if said question is "what the fuck is happening?"

    There's no clear explanation of just what the fuck is actually happening in the galaxy. Who's in charge? Who's a superpower? Who's control extends to where?
     
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  12. Max Rawhide

    Max Rawhide Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I have to agree with @SPLIT LIP on this. A lot doesn't make sense without reading the extra books/comics/whatever. I was sitting in the theatre wondering why this wasn't the Republic army but a small group, wondering why they're called the Resistance (a movement that seeks to overthrow a foreign occupation force that's in control of your country), how come this fringe organisation (the First Order) has succeeded in building a weapon that can destroy multiple planets and has ships that are bigger than the previous big ships, why Leia isn't part of he Republic government, etc...etc...

    Even if this was a standalone movie, there's too much that doesn't make sense and to understand what's happening you need the additional books/comics. As part of movie saga and the spiritual succesor to the previous part, it's even worse.

    Not everything needs to be explained, but there's essential information missing from TFA (and TLJ) that is crucial to understanding the movie and where everybody is coming from and why they're acting the way they do.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
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  13. GuardianAngel87

    GuardianAngel87 Well-Known Member

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    For those that are interested, Ivan Ortega's TLJ Re-Edit is now up:

    Ivan_Ortega
     
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  14. General Magnus

    General Magnus Da Custodes of the Emprah

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    In the age of expanded universes with various media formats, that argument losses less and less strength each day.


    Speaking of the First Order conquering all, never mind that the losses they suffered in the second film should have crippled their supposed offensive. The Fulminatrix, the dreadnought that got blown up? It had a crew of 53 thousand officers alone. The loss of such a high number of officers in a single battle would cripple any military force due to sheer numbers. And it´s stated the FO has less firepower and manpower than the empire, that´s why it resorted to subterfuge and other means to take on the NR.

    Never mind the thousands of officers and command cadre that died at Starkiller base and later on at the Supremacy and it´s fleet that got damaged and destroyed.

    No way in hell such losses in a span of less than a month would not influence any sort of offensive campaign that the FO might have been wagging. These are losses that would cause any sort of military command structure to at least pause it´s war if not outright collapse due to the sudden death of so many command staff. It´s hard to tell things to your rank and file if all the guys giving the orders die in a short amount of time, especially if your manpower was not that great to begin with.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
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  15. SHINOBI03

    SHINOBI03 Well-Known Member

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    Also when it's an age of audience with zero patience on info dumps and lack of tolerance to exposition scenes and all what they want to see is action.
     
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  16. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP AKA Beve Stuscemi

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    No, it doesn't.

    If anything, it gains more credence. Filmmakers are just lazy when it comes to franchise movies, and people just excuse it because someone else went and filled in the gaps after the fact. That's not storytelling, it's half-assing and doing a rushed patch-job later. The majority of moviegoers (i.e. the target audience) aren't going to go read a novel just to understand the basic setting of the film.

    It didn't fly with the TF movies and the IDW comics, it doesn't fly here.

    Info dumps and exposition scenes aren't the only way to convey information to the audience, and if you seriously think that's the only way to explain the basic plot of a film your palette of cinema is extremely lacking. The original Star Wars never need info dumps to set up its universe.

    And even if it was, these movies have literal fucking paragraphs of scrolling text at the beginning. Bullshit audiences have zero patience. You're basically saying it's okay to have a shit story because moviegoers are idiots.
     
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  17. SHINOBI03

    SHINOBI03 Well-Known Member

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    So you never experienced criticisms of movies where everybody trashed certain movies for being "all talk and not enough action" or just criticizing movies that takes their time to explain something like all of a sudden it's a bad thing movies shouldn't ever do?
     
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  18. TattooedRobot

    TattooedRobot A Very Stable Genius TFW2005 Supporter

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    [/QUOTE]

    The NR is not at war at the outset of FA the FO surprise attacks and kills their government and Fleet. You can overthink it as much as you like but it’s right there.

    CFB5CF53-2363-4FBB-8BD2-D246DFEEDBC4.jpeg DB9123EE-EA1F-4696-AAE9-6F27AFEA832F.png

    Multiple shots at once. Don’t know how many hit the Fleet itself but it’s done either way.

    Who knows how Galactic Republics behave. Lucas had them with no military at all in the Prequels which is far less believable to me than the corpus of the NR Fleet getting destroyed, just like Pearl Harbor, which as I mentioned happened irl. So SW and real life what can I tell you. Hyper-Space is a plot device ships can get anywhere as quickly as the writer wants them to.
     
  19. General Magnus

    General Magnus Da Custodes of the Emprah

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    Yes it does. Look, you might not like it, but you don´t own the franchise, so if the owners of the IP say it´s "cannon" it is, unless they retcon it later on.
     
  20. TattooedRobot

    TattooedRobot A Very Stable Genius TFW2005 Supporter

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    You couldn’t follow this? Really.

    Episode VII
    THE FORCE AWAKENS

    Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed.

    With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE. She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy.

    Leia has sent her most daring pilot on a secret mission to Jakku, where an old ally has discovered a clue to Luke’s whereabouts…

    Or this

    Episode VIII

    THE LAST JEDI

    The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy. Only General Leia Organa’s band of RESISTANCE fighters stand against the rising tyranny, certain that Jedi Master Luke Skywalker will return and restore a spark of hope to the fight.But the Resistance has been exposed. As the First Order speeds toward the rebel base, the brave heroes mount a desperate escape....