STAR WARS - General Topic Discussion

Discussion in 'Movies and Television' started by DarkEnergon22, Jan 21, 2018.

  1. There D Hood

    There D Hood Well-Known Member

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    Or to be more on-topic: No one's(thing's) ever really gone.
     
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  2. Sixwing

    Sixwing What did you mean by "in Tribble"?

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    If pulled off well, this could have been awesome.
     
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  3. Rodimus Prime

    Rodimus Prime Sola Gratia, Sola Fide TFW2005 Supporter

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  4. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP AKA Beve Stuscemi

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    Boy, when you put it that way it almost makes the Disney movies seem like total, poorly-thought-out crap.
     
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  5. flamepanther

    flamepanther Interested, but not really

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    If you were just looking at pieces of an early outline of ANH, you might think the stakes were super low. If the heroes lose, the consequence for everyone else is... things stay as they are? Life under the Empire isn't as good as it was before, supposedly, but it's not exactly dystopian. It doesn't really sound so high stakes if you just summarize it like that. The PT and ST are only somewhat higher stakes--the somewhat shitty system of government becomes appreciably but not drastically more shitty. Oh nooooo!

    The actual stakes of the Star Wars movies are the lives of the characters you've come to know and root for. The fate of the galaxy is just a reason the story uses to make them run toward danger instead of away from it. That goes for all three trilogies. If the stakes were really about what was going to happen with the Republic, the First Order, or even the Resistance at large, the writers and directors would've put a lot of effort into explaining what exactly is going on with any of them. You might've noticed they didn't.

    The stakes in Star Wars that actually matter are more immediate and personal. Will the boy win his freedom in the pod race? Will everyone get out of the garbage smasher alive? What's going to happen to Rey and Kylo? A George Lucas sequel trilogy would've had that kind of tension for sure.
     
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  6. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    I would have thought simply watching the ST films would have told you that...
     
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  7. Max Rawhide

    Max Rawhide Well-Known Member

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    Two? I thought it was one day?!


    I don't entirely agree with you. Mostly, but not entirely.

    I think it is possible to compress it into one trilogy, especially considering that following the lessons learned through the PT and OT, the (new) Republic now should have a standing army and people have experienced the terror of the empire.

    But I agree with you that it requires a proper build up and a seperate defeat, which now is lacking and rushed.

    Combined for the new trilogy, it would then be like this:

    VII: reveal and first strike of the FO, but still the heroes score a win (TPM and ANH both have a start with a victory)
    XIII: the FO strikes again and this time, at the end of the movie, they win establishing their rule with Kylo in control. (similarly, ESB and AotC end on a negatieve note)
    IX: the fled Republic army unites (first half of the movie) and launches Operation Freedom to defeat the FO and retake the Republic (second half), while Rey defeats Kylo or brings him back into the light..


    Epsiodes 7 and 8 would then be a condensed version of the PT, while also establishing the new heroes, basically bringing us at the level of ESB. The final movie would then be a RotJ like story of victory.

    This would, however, require a pre-planned story arc for all three movies and a clear layout what would and what wouldn't happen in the individual stories. Or in other words, a plan.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
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  8. TattooedRobot

    TattooedRobot A Very Stable Genius TFW2005 Supporter

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    It’s one moment. Starkiller Base destroys the New Republic’s government and also it’s Fleet in one attack. It’s like Japan wiping out Pearl Harbor and DC in one attack.

    The Resistance isn’t the New Republic. I don’t know what he’s talking about regarding the NR funding Resistance unless there is something I don’t know.

    I have no idea what’s so hard to follow in this trilogy.
     
  9. MatrixOfWumbo

    MatrixOfWumbo I see you

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    Nothing about the actual Episode VIII contradicts your setup for IX though.

    This is, by all accounts so far, what Rise of Skywalker is. Though your version sounds even more like Return of the Jedi than it probably will be. I think the internal drama within the First Order now that Kylo is in charge will be a juicier part of the story than previously as well.
     
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  10. MatrixOfWumbo

    MatrixOfWumbo I see you

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    The Resistance (or more technically, Leia) had tacit support from within the Republic's government, but they couldn't outright endorse her because many of their peers were tacitly supporting the First Order. Like most of Star Wars I don't know where anyone got their money from. None of that is in the movie because people were bored to tears by the Senatorial Debates in Attack of the Clones, and also because some chucklehead named Leia's party the "Populists" in the book, which is both inaccurate by any modern definition and a truly buckwild thing to call a good guy faction in 2016.
     
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  11. TattooedRobot

    TattooedRobot A Very Stable Genius TFW2005 Supporter

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    The other poster’s point was the Resistance is supported by the NR so they shouldn’t have been lacking resources. Which actually makes perfect sense. Sure she had tacit support but she wasn’t their Army and their army literally gets blown off the map.
    Obviously the NR Fleet was a big deal, even off-screen, and when removed from the board, the board is entirely changed. If Leia could flee back to the NR Fleet for supplies and or protection that option is gone. If the FO wouldn’t dare enter NR systems for fear of the NR Fleet that is gone, in an instant. It makes perfect sense in both movies.
    If you want to say how did they get so powerful idk how did Thanos gets so powerful?
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
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  12. MatrixOfWumbo

    MatrixOfWumbo I see you

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    I'm sure we'll get a book or something about the period between the end of the Empire and the beginning of the Order. Or maybe the cartoon will go into more detail, because there's basically a 110% chance that a cartoon set between 8 and 9 goes into production before the end of 2021.

    Star Wars: Bloodlines is one of the earliest books in the New Canon, and also one of the most lore critical. Which means it's probably the most vulnerable to retcons and contradictions in the future. It's the Megatron: Origin of Star Wars.
     
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  13. General Magnus

    General Magnus Da Custodes of the Emprah

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    Yeah no. They don´t have near the military might of the Empire. I doubt Mon Cal for example would roll over and die and in the EU they were powerful enough that the Empire knew any sort of invasion would result in crippling losses for them.

    I am curious how the Resistance is gonna play any role in the next film since they all fit inside a normal school bus now.
     
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  14. Max Rawhide

    Max Rawhide Well-Known Member

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    Except that it doesn't make sense. The New Republic would be a capitol (politcial control), a military HQ (military control) and a fleet. The single strike we see in TFA doesn't work in defeating that.

    To use your analogy, if Japan had struck at DC and Pearl Harbor at the same time, they wouldn't have won the war and conquered the USA. It would have seriously hindered the USA operations (since the political drive was gone together with a large portion of the fleet), but even after Pearl Harbor there still was a large US military, albeit a crippled fleet that no longer could go on the offensive. Japan then would have to wage an air war against the USA (with the airforce still fully operational) and a land war (with the military still fully operational).

    The FO attack, however, seems to completely obliterate the political element and the military. The first I can accept, but the latter makes no sense. It's a space fleet and thus tend to be in space and not really suffer from a planetary destruction. They should also be on patrol in space or protecting other planets than the couple of major political planets.


    One thing does: in my scenario it requires the Republic fleet that was seen in the hypothetical first two parts, to re-unite, defeat the FO fleet and retake the Republic.

    In TFA and TLJ the Republic is destroyed and there's no mention of a remaining Republic fleet. If there was, they would've come to the aid of Leia, possible the lone survivor of the former government and an icon of the former Rebel Alliance.

    The situation at the end of TLJ is, as @General Magnus so nicely put, that the entire Resistance movement isn't even large enough to operate a single starship. Plus they lost all their ships save the Falcon.
     
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  15. General Magnus

    General Magnus Da Custodes of the Emprah

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    Supplementary materials say that other planets took their own fleets to defend from the FO or sided with them. Mon Mothma being a complete idiot had defanged the NR military and gave the NR members their own fleets and armies back, which meant the NR had a skeleton military fleet with the bulk being made up with other fleets from members. when the central core fleet was wiped out and the NR collapsed, everyone and their mother took their fleets back to bolster their own defense or bolster the FOs ranks thus crippling whatever centralized resistance might have existed.

    TL: DR Mon Mothma is an idiot.
     
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  16. Max Rawhide

    Max Rawhide Well-Known Member

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    @General Magnus All well and good, but I shouldn't have to read a bunch of novels and comics and background information to make sense of plot holes and bad writing in the movie. I should only have to read this if I like what I see and want to experience more.
     
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  17. TattooedRobot

    TattooedRobot A Very Stable Genius TFW2005 Supporter

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    Actually the US Airforce was practically non-existent in 1941 and had no ability what so ever to strike immediately back at Japan. They weren’t trying to invade the US either. Without the US Government in place to organize rebuilding the Pacific fleet and Army we would have undoubtedly lost the Pacific.

    I really don’t understand your point. The movie clearly states the NR Fleet gets destroyed. If you don’t like it totally fine it’s just what happens in the movie. It’s a single-strike shown simultaneously hitting multiple targets. I am sure the NR has other assets but at the end of the day the government is beheaded and the most powerful military asset is dead.... Leaving the FO the preeminent power in the galaxy.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
  18. Max Rawhide

    Max Rawhide Well-Known Member

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    The fact that the movie states that the Republic fleet is destroyed (does it actually, can't remember) shouldb't be gospel. If it doesn't make sense, then the concept is flawed.

    Destroying a bunch of planets (the capitols, admittedly) shouldn't have an effect on the destruction of Space fleets, because they tend to be in space, and space is very big. Destroy the capital planet (or even more) and although you've destroyed the political power and likely some admirals and perhaps even the entire military HQ, a large portion of the fleet should still be operational. (That is, unless the military leaders were so incompetent that they had stationed the entre fleet around these few planets and let the rest of the republic be unprotected and unguarded.) If you attack the USA and destroy the capitol and the military HQ, then the fleets out on the Ocean don't magically disappear. They're still out there and capable of doing their job. And the great thing of a fleet is that they have a hierarchy, so command structure isn't that difficult, meaning that they oragnise themselves quickly.


    Let's also put it like this.

    In RotJ the Emperor is killed, Darth Vader dies, the Second Death Star is destroyed, the Executor is destroyed, and although we don't know what exactly happened with the massive imperial fleet stationed at Endor, several of these Star Destroyers are destroyed and we can see clearly see this as a major blow to the Empire. Actually, in the old Marvel comics they ended the war with this (which I always hated). In the old EU the Empire continued even after the loss of Coruscant and more and more politcal leaders being killed or captured. And even TFA states that the Empire continued after this and there were more battles, because part of the fleet survived. As massive as this defeat was, it wasn't the end of the Empire and the Imperial Fleet.

    But in TLJ way of thinking, destroying the capitol is enough. It's over, finished, and the First Order reigns over the completely defenseless universe as a vast predatory bird :D 
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
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  19. MatrixOfWumbo

    MatrixOfWumbo I see you

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    TLJ takes place within about 48-96 hours of the destruction of the Republic Capital System. It's entirely possible that someone is still alive and more than probable that word of Luke's miraculous victory on Crait will swell the ranks of the New Rebellion by the time of IX. But it's also likely that in that short a period of time there was too much chaos in the Republic to actually mount any sort of aid.

    There's very little post-TLJ media yet to expand on this.
     
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  20. Sixwing

    Sixwing What did you mean by "in Tribble"?

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    Remember, it never ends.
     
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