Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi

Discussion in 'Movies and Television' started by eagc7, Jan 11, 2016.

  1. Murasame

    Murasame

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    I think they probably misunderstood Star Wars and have wrong expectations because of EU stories that don't mean shit to the Canon.
     
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  2. Wrecker217

    Wrecker217 There's a 50 character limit to titles. Now you kn

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    EW Talks to RJ & Others, on: Leia's Scene, Rey's Parents, Phasma, Luke and Snoke Decisions
    As far as we know, Phasma is no more. But at the post-screening Q&A for The Last Jedi, writer-director Rian Johnson left room for a possible return.

    “Phasma is the Kenny from South Park of this series,” he joked.

    “I think she’s got to survive,” Mark Hamill said, offering up his own theory. “She falls through the flames and lands on a big pile of rubbish.”

    “Gwendoline has it all figured out how she wants to come back,” said costume designer Michael Kaplan.

    “No one’s ever really gone,” Hamill added, repeating one of Luke’s lines from the film.

    So that settles it: Phasma may be dead, but if enough people want her back, the ruthless captain could still get a resurrection.

    Why not show Phasma’s full face?

    “It seemed like a really striking thing to just glimpse the humanity behind it,” Johnson said. “Originally, we were like, ‘Should it be kind of monstrous? What should be behind there?’”

    Ultimately, it was one of the heroes who came up with the idea of what we should see of this villain.

    “I think we were talking about it and it was Daisy [Ridley] actually who said it should just be Gwendoline’s beautiful, piercing eye,” Johnson said. “Just this perfect blue eye behind this metal monster. I loved that image.”

    He felt there was something more disturbing in revealing beauty beneath that mask rather than ugliness.

    But if Phasma does return for Episode IX, which is currently being written by J.J. Abrams and Argo Oscar winner Chris Terrio, she is likely to be horrifically burned and broken from her downfall in The Last Jedi.

    We could finally get to see a face that truly resembles the monster within.
    It turns out, your Snoke theory doesn’t necessarily suck. It’s just … not relevant.

    We did not learn anything new about Snoke’s origin in The Last Jedi, but we did witness his grim ending.

    As you know from seeing The Last Jedi (and if you haven’t, you should stop reading now), Snoke is carved in half like a malevolent birthday cake while goading Kylo Ren to execute a trapped Rey.

    Snoke is so preoccupied with gloating and holding Rey aloft using his own Force powers he doesn’t notice that the Skywalker family lightsaber on the armrest of his throne turn has turned toward him. Only when it ignites, piercing his spine and bisecting him, does Snoke realize he has been both outwitted and betrayed.

    But after that, instead of joining Rey, Kylo urges her to join him. He has no intention of turning “good.” He aspires to become the new supreme leader.

    Writer-director Rian Johnson says he only knew one truth: It was time for Snoke to end. That felt like the only way to make Kylo Ren stronger and more formidable as the trilogy closes.

    “When I was working on the character of Kylo, I came to a place where I thought the most interesting thing would be to knock the shaky foundation out from under him at the beginning of this movie,” Johnson said. “By the end of this film, he’s gone from being a wannabe Vader to someone who is standing on his own feet as a complex villain taking the reins.”

    Johnson also thought it would be “a really good setup going into the next movie.”

    “But then the question is: What place would Snoke have at the end of that?” Johnson said. “That made me realize the most interesting thing would be to eliminate that dynamic between the ‘emperor’ and pupil, so that all bets are off going into the next one. That also led to the possibility of this dramatic turn in the middle, which could also be a really powerful connection point between Kylo and Rey.”

    As for Snoke’s history, we don’t know much. But Johnson says fans of the original trilogy also knew next to nothing about the history of Emperor Palpatine.

    While Serkis, who performs Snoke through motion capture, says he believes the villain’s injuries (and bitterness) stem from a long-ago conflict with the new Republic, we will have to wait for another story to explore that origin.

    “I do think it’s interesting,” Johnson said. “I never want to poo-poo the fans coming up with theories. It’s part of the fun of being a Star Wars fan. If there is a place for it in another story, I hope it gets told.”

    Telling it himself in The Last Jedi would have felt like he was shoehorning information on the audience that would have become a distraction. “It would have stopped any of these scenes dead cold if he had stopped and given a 30-second speech about how he’s Darth Plagueis,” Johnson said. “It doesn’t matter to Rey. If he had done that, Rey would have blinked and said, ‘Who?’ And the scene would have gone on.”

    Before moving on himself, Johnson quickly added, “And I’m not saying he’s Darth Plagueis!”
    The scene in the Mirror Cave is meant to be symbolic, much as Luke’s descent into the cave of Dagobah in The Empire Strikes Back showed him he had the potential to turn dark if he wasn’t cautious. “These movies rhyme with each other,” Johnson said.

    “The idea is this island has incredible light and the first Jedi temple up top, and then it has an incredible darkness that’s balanced down underneath in the cave,” the filmmaker said. “In this search for identity, which is her whole thing, she finds all these various versions of ‘Who am I’ going off into infinity, all the possibilities of her. She comes to the end, looking for identity from somebody, looking for an answer, and it’s just her.

    “Do you know the truth about your parents? Or have you always known? You’ve just hidden it away. … Say it.”

    “They were nobody,” she says, fighting back tears.

    “They were filthy junk traders,” he says. “Sold you off for drinking money. They’re dead in a pauper’s grave in the Jakku desert. You come from nothing. You’re nothing. … But not to me.”

    So is he telling the truth, or playing on her emotions and a confusing cave-vision?

    Writer-director Rian Johnson prefaced his answer by saying J.J. Abrams and ArgoOscar-winner Chris Terrio are currently writing the next movie right now.

    “I can’t speak to what they’re going to do. And there’s always, in these movies, a question of ‘a certain point of view,’” Johnson said, invoking Obi-Wan’s line from Return of the Jedi, explaining why he told Luke his father was dead rather than the truth that he had become Darth Vader.

    “But for me, in that moment, Kylo believes it’s the truth,” Johnson added. “I don’t think he’s purely playing chess. I think that’s what he saw when they touched fingers and that’s what he believes. And when he tells her that in that moment, she believes it.”

    There was no established origin that Johnson inherited when he signed on to the movie. He was free to resolve it as he liked.

    “I was thinking, what’s the most powerful answer to that question? Powerful meaning: what’s the hardest thing that Rey could hear? That’s what you’re after with challenging your characters,” Johnson said.

    “I think back to the ‘I am your father’ moment with Vader and Luke, and the reason I think that lands is not because it’s a surprise or a twist but because it’s the hardest thing Luke and thus the audience could hear at that moment,” he added. “It turns someone into a bad guy that you just hate and want to kill into suddenly, Oh my God, this is a part of our protagonist. We have to start thinking of this person in more complex terms. We need to start thinking in terms of a redemption arc.”

    “In our movie, it’s kind of the opposite,” Johnsons said. “The easiest thing for Rey and the audience to hear is, Oh yeah, you’re so-and-so’s daughter. That would be wish fulfillment and instantly hand her a place in this story on a silver platter.”

    “The hardest thing for her is to hear she’s not going to get that easy answer. Not only that, but Kylo is going to use the fact that you don’t get that answer to try and weaken you so you have to lean on him,” Johnson says. “You’re going to have to find the strength to stand on your own two feet and define yourself in this story.”
    That scene originated because Lucasfilm president Kathleen Kennedy was one of the fans who kept speculating about Leia’s Force sensitivity, director Rian Johnson said at the Q&A Friday.

    “She kept asking, ‘Leia’s a Skywalker, Luke gave her this speech in Jedi and told her basically, ‘You have this potential, too.’ It seemed to me it would be a really emotionally impactful thing to see her use it,” the filmmaker said.

    Johnson felt overt Force powers might only awaken in her this directing in the midst of a crisis. “I liked the idea it would be an instinctual thing. This would be more like stories you hear about parents of toddlers who get caught under cars and they get Hulk strength and lift the car up,” he said.

    “It would be something in these final moments to show that she’s not done with the fight. And like a drowning person pulling herself back, that’s how it manifests itself for the first time in her.”

    “She was excited. But she loved words and was more excited about some of the wordplay and jokes,” Johnson said. “She was more excited about the line, “Get your head out of your cockpit.’”

    Leia also gets the big Chewbacca hug that she was denied in The Force Awakens, but her most powerful scene was the reunion with her brother. Mark Hamill got choked up describing that moment with Fisher during the post-screening discussion.

    “I’m saying goodbye to her in the movie, and it’s just so tragic now that … I can’t really watch it,” Hamill said, his voice breaking. “I’m still … it’s me being in denial. She’s so present tense, not past tense. And she really deserved to be here because she’s so wonderful in the movie.”

    Those watching the film for the first time will likely miss this (they’re supposed to), but Fisher also delivers a subtle, revealing glance during their interaction when Luke reaches out and hands her the pair of Han Solo’s golden dice that were hanging inside the Millennium Falcon.

    Her expression is not grief, but shock. And it’s not about receiving this memento.

    “That’s when she knows,” Hamill says.

    Her brother isn’t really there. And yet he is.

    It’s not a bad metaphor for the legacy of Carrie Fisher.
    “That’s what I love, still smacking me on the nose, trying to train me like a puppy,” Hamill said at the post-screening Q&A. “Oh ‘young Skywalker.’ Really? This coming from a character who’s 947 years old.”

    The scene actually reunited him with iconic Muppets puppeteer Frank Oz, who performed Yoda back in The Empire Strikes Back. Creature shop supervisor Neal Scanlan used the original molds to create a replica of the original Yoda, and the two got back to work for one final lesson.

    “Frank is so gifted, and I’ve been a fan of his for years,” Hamill says. “The thing is, it was just so real to me.”

    He said it was important even in Luke’s age and wisdom to show that he still needs guidance.

    “Luke is not the sharpest tool in the box,” Hamill said. “Things are right in front of him, and he doesn’t get it. Like when I’m looking for Ben Kenobi and I don’t recognize Alec Guinness for who he is. I shoo Yoda away, ‘Get out of my rations, I’m looking for a great Jedi warrior!’ Those touches are so human.”

    Writer-director Rian Johnson says he needed to have a figure from Luke’s past reappear, and with Alec Guinness gone there was no other option except Yoda.

    “That was really it. When I was thinking about what Luke’s arc is going to be, and realized that someone coming back and kicking his butt would be his final beat on the island, Yoda just made the most sense.”

    “If we had brought Ewan in, it would have been fun, but Mark as Luke has never had a relationship with the Ewan version of Obi-Wan,” he said.

    Although … that could have been where Luke learned it was okay to make himself look younger in projected appearance.

    “Exactly! There’s some benefit to Force ghost-dom,” Johnson agreed.

    To keep Yoda’s return a surprise, producer Ram Bergman worked diligently for a year to hide the involvement of the all-powerful Oz. “I had to convince Frank to basically make sure we don’t put his name on the poster, and not to do any press about it,” Bergman said. “I made sure he ate in the office and not publicly in the restaurant when he came to Pinewood [Studios.]”

    Even reuniting with Mark Hamill off-set was cloak and dagger.

    “We were emailing each other: ‘Meet me in the parking lot and I’ll sneak you up to my hotel room,’” Hamill said with a laugh. “You’re reading these things later and thinking, ‘Eww, that’s kind of creepy. People could take this the wrong way.’”
    “I had huge hesitance,” Johnson says of ending one of the most beloved characters in movie history. “I was terrified. It was a growing sense of dread when I realized this was going to make sense in that chapter.”

    Johnson said he discussed it extensively with Lucasfilm president Kathleen Kennedy and members of the Star Wars story group before committing to it.

    “It was not like I wrote the script and dropped it on their desk. It was very important to me that I was collaborating with the folks at Lucasfilm from the word go,” he said. “I moved to San Francisco for a few months and would go in a few times a week to keep them up to date, spewing my ideas out, especially the big ones.”

    Johnson’s goal was creating a finale for Luke “that pushes the audience and thus the character.”

    “Well, I’m still in denial,” Hamill joked. “I just think he transported somewhere else.”

    “Modern day New York,” Rian added with a laugh. “That was my favorite theory we had.”

    During the Q&A, Johnson also pointed out a slight flaw with the vanishing scene. “We were in the other room saying, ‘A steel hand should clunk to the ground.’”

    Hamill dealt with the news of his character’s demise in stages of grief. You already heard him express denial. Originally, the actor reacted with bargaining. “The first thing I said was, ‘Can’t you wait and do this in Episode IX?’”

    But Johnson said it was necessary to keep the focus on the new characters as the trilogy reached its end. (J.J. Abrams will return to make the next installment, set for release in 2019.)

    “I think the hero’s journey of Luke Skywalker concluded in Return of the Jedi. This [trilogy] is the hero’s journey of Rey, and Finn, and Poe,” Johnson said. “The [ongoing] story of Luke is one that has to play in tandem with that of Rey.”

    On second viewing, there are many hints that Luke isn’t really there in the final confrontation with Kylo Ren. For one, they never clash lightsabers. Luke ducks and dashes to avoid every blow from the red crossguard sword.

    “Exactly, by design,” editor Bob Ducsay said. “There are many small things that would give you some clues as to what’s going on with Luke. He doesn’t make a sound. Nothing ever falls on him. Kylo’s lightsaber interacts with the salt, and Luke’s doesn’t.”

    “There are so many little details,” added producer Ram Bergman. “The first time you watch the movie, it’s a little bit overwhelming. But the second time you’re more relaxed, and you can start picking up so many details Rian planted throughout.”

    “These movies are engineered to be watched over and over again,” Johnson said.

    Hamill added that he sees a hint about Episode IX in Luke’s final words to Kylo Ren.

    “I’m just still holding on to the line, ‘See you around, kid.’ I can be in Episode Nine!” Hamill declared to cheers from the crowd. “I might consider catering the film just so I can hang out.”

    Thanks to Force ghosts, heroes never really go away.
     
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  3. Purple Heart

    Purple Heart Pure Passion

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    Reading that I really like a lot of his explanations and understand his motive for the directions he went. He has a very solid point about Rey’s heritage, and I like that.
     
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  4. Wrecker217

    Wrecker217 There's a 50 character limit to titles. Now you kn

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    Screenshot_20171219-015838.jpg
     
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  5. Haywired

    Haywired Hakunamatatacon

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    Interdictor cruisers with gravity well projectors are reintroduced into canon in Tarkin novel.

    Hyperspace missiles are fine and dandy as a sucker punch if your opponent isn't prepared or expecting it but when they are? It's a setting where the technology allows for either pulling the ships out of hyperspace or to outright deny anyone in the perimeter to go FTL.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2017
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  6. MatrixOfWumbo

    MatrixOfWumbo I see you

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    So this one time, an up and coming commander in the Rebel Alliance was faced with a major Imperial Military asset, and they diverted hundreds of resources because they couldn't pass up the opportunity to take the asset off the board. Ultimately they had to learn, in an ironic echo of Finn's lesson, not Poe's, that it was more important to save what you love than fight what you hate.
    786298f29370bc2f7f35e045d4e52791082f91af_hq.jpg
    Countless Rebels lost their lives in Leia's obsession to take down Darth Vader on Vrogas Vas before she realized that she was throwing their lives away recklessly. So I imagine she had some sense of Deja Vu in the beginning of this movie.
     
  7. MegaPrime33

    MegaPrime33 Follow me @NerdActivist TFW2005 Supporter

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    I have to catch up on those vader/sw comics.
     
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  8. Chris James

    Chris James Well-Known Member

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  9. Murasame

    Murasame

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    I'd rather they cut the prequel trilogy.
     
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  10. Raiju

    Raiju Yub Nub, y'all! Yub Nub!! Veteran TFW2005 Supporter

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    It'd be easier for these fans to simply ignore Eps VII, VIII, and IX but that's just me. It's not like Disney is rounding up all the EU books and burning them in a giant fire like in Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade.
     
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  11. General Magnus

    General Magnus Da Custodes of the Emprah

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    I don´t get why Leia demoted Poe in the early part of the film. Sure they lost 6 bombers but they took out a dreadnought and killed possibly hundred of thousands of enemy combatants while losing 20 or 30 men, max. Most military generals would call that a resounding success.
     
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  12. GuardianAngel87

    GuardianAngel87 Well-Known Member

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    Easier said than done since, try as we might, these "sequel films" are constantly rubbed in our faces both literally and figuratively no matter what we do or where we go in the world.
     
  13. David

    David . TFW2005 Supporter

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    Random thought: I wonder if all the movies taking place so close to each other is what is really hurting the franchise. VII and VIII all take place in like..a week..maybe a month? I think the others had at least a year or more apart from each other. Hopefully IX takes place a few years down the road.
     
  14. General Magnus

    General Magnus Da Custodes of the Emprah

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    The destruction of 6 bombers and handful of fighters while taking out a massive supership and hundreds of thousands of enemy soldiers is not what I would call a disaster.
     
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  15. Dr Kain

    Dr Kain Well-Known Member

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    Good god are Star Wars fanboys a toxic crew. Every time they don't like a Star Wars movie they act like the movie raped their childhood, their mother, and their dog before killing it and feeding it to them. I've never seen such disdain from a fandom as much as them.
     
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  16. tikgnat

    tikgnat Baweepgranaweepninnybong.

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    Because he disobeyed a direct order.

    Are we still spoiler tagging everything? I have no idea why people are losing their shit over... any of it. I thought it was great.

    I disliked TFA's strict adherance to EP IV's structure and narrative. I liked TLK's trailblazing. I really liked the Lightsaber fights, because there was no twirly baton bullshit that some fans (read 'people with no real experience') seem to want.

    There was more but eh. I liked it.
     
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  17. Alucard77

    Alucard77 Kaon Gladiator Champion

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    Yeah, but he directly went against orders. Leila told him to back down. He insisted that they can do it. Went against orders, and did what he did. Then he called in the destroyers. Whether or not it was a sucessful mission, the amount of loses for that one Military asset is rediculous. Who cares if that ship could destroy whole fleets. They had 1 fleet literally left. They lost all of their bombers. And for what? 1 ship. After their jump, boom, another ship. It's not like VDay, where you have to take out the guns on the beach so other troops can get in. There are no other troops now and there are another set of guns.

    The more I am away from the movie, the more I feel like this movie had shit poor writing unfortunately. I was not sure why I felt that this was not a Stars Wars movie, but after watching a couple of videos, I do. 1- Everything was a huge fuck you to the fans.
    - Scene with Luke, teased for 2 years and he throws away the saber. Basically saying, it's not important.
    - Snoke, no explanation, just dies, and goes out like a bitch as well. Basically saying, oh, yeah, not important.
    - Leia dies, oh wait, no she doesn't, she uses some post mortum force BS ability to snap out of it and fly back? So basically, deaths, they are not really a thing anymore. And for what exactly, what critical thing did she do in the movie after returning from her death? That's right, shot Poe and then told others, follow Poe. WTF?
    - The whole Luke story arch. Jedi need to end, only to say, nope, Jedi won't end. Then what was the point of the whole temper tantrum?
    - What was the point of Finns story arch at all? What did he exactly do? What was the impact of his actions?

    Actually what was the impact of anyones actions in this movie. TBH, I think that is why Poe strikes me the most. His actions were extremely irresponsible, got so many people killed, THEN HE WAS REWARDED FOR IT.

    All the other characters in this movie had no purpose. Maybe Rey and Kilo, but I didn't need 3 hours for that. It didn't need the Casino planet at all. Basically, this movie was just a bunch of fluff.

    Which brings me to my last point. While people didn't like JJ, and while the Death Star was done to death, that movie at least felt like a Star Wars movie. Establish new characters, that we cared about, killed off ones we loved, and left asking questions.

    What questions do we have from this movie? Who is the little kid on the slave planet? Where are the Rebels going? If we were to believe Kylo Ren about Rey's parents? I mean, there was literally 0 questions I left that theater with and 0 answers I received that I was satisfied with.

    I feel like I could go on and on.

    Here is the things. As a movie, it was entertaining. As a Star Wars movie, it was extremely lacking and added nothing to the lore that was not already established. It felt like a cash in. At least with Rogue One, we got a movie to fill in a plot hole. Here we got an entertaining movie, but by no means a Star Wars movie.
     
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  18. ABH1979

    ABH1979 Veteran

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    You still haven't seen the movie, right? You could just cut yourself off from these sequel trilogy discussions, and alleviate some of your pain...
     
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  19. tikgnat

    tikgnat Baweepgranaweepninnybong.

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    How was this 'not' a Star Wars film?

    Oh, and also, Reys parentage...

    Kylo might have just been lying, y'know? Lord of the Sith, lying? Hardly a revelation?
     
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  20. smkspy

    smkspy Remember true fans

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    I'm gonna build on this, yeah, they lost some bombers and a few fighters, but it didn't feel any greater than the losses on any other rebel attack on well, anything.

    Also, the chain of command in rebellion has always been a joke. Rank has never had anything to do with importance and standing in the rebellion. Hell, OT rebellion made Lando a general simply because he saved Solo (after betraying him first to the empire).

    So Poe gets demoded to what? I don't really even remember his rank pre-demotion.

    And why were those space bombers the slowest space ships I have ever seen in a star wars movie?

    I do get why some are comparing to AoTC more and more. I'm not gonna ignore the movie or pretend it isn't canon. It's more canon than the new comics or EU. But just because it is canon does not give it pass simply because it's the new thing and people are still riding their sugar highs.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2017