Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi

Discussion in 'Movies and Television' started by eagc7, Jan 11, 2016.

  1. Haloid1177

    Haloid1177 Hey, That's Pretty Good

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    You say you have 1-6, but what about the prequels actually continued the story from the OT in a meaningful way? Like I get you didn't like it, fine, but saying you'll have 1-6 seems weird to me. The OT, sure, but the prequels were even less about the OT story than these are, in a way.
     
  2. SouthtownKid

    SouthtownKid Headmaster

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    And let's not forget, Luke is about 95% self-taught. The unfortunate order the scenes in Empire are arranged make it impossible that Luke spent more than a couple weeks maximum with Yoda. And even that is pushing it. Two weeks isn't even enough to get an orange belt in any martial art. Dialogue in Jedi makes it clear he never visited Yoda after Empire and before his 10 minute visit that ends with Yoda's death in RotJ. And he got essentially zero instruction from Ben, other than 2 minutes on the way to Alderaan. And Luke's surprise at seeing a vision of Ben as he froze to death on Hoth while waiting for Han to rescue him suggests that Ben had not appeared to him prior to that. That means everything else Luke did on his own. That's incredible.

    In the opening scenes of Empire, we see Luke has acquired the ability to move things with the Force by bringing his lightsaber to him in the cave. Nobody ever seems to notice this, but as far as the audience OR Luke knew at the point Ben died in New Hope, that wasn't even an ability the Jedi had available to them. He somehow discovered that and mastered it on his own, without even having been aware that was a thing. No doubt, if the internet had existed in 1980, we all would have blasted the movie to pieces for that, but back then, nobody batted an eye.



    And going back to someone else's point that it was out of character for Luke to have that moment of weakness and consider killing Kylo, because Luke in RotJ sensed the conflict within Vader and did everything he could to save him, are we only selectively remembering the parts of that movie that agree with our points?? Yes, Luke surrendered himself peacefully to Vader on Endor. Yes, he met the Emperor with a steely calm befitting a Jedi.

    BUT

    What happened when Vader merely mentioned Luke's sister? LUKE LOST IT. He instantly went into a murderous berserker rage and absolutely would have killed his own father if the Emperor hadn't inadvertently snapped Luke out of it while trying to bait him further. How is anyone forgetting this??

    Falling to bad impulses due to wanting to protect others and almost making murderous choices is completely in-character for Luke. It's disappointing, absolutely, but it's in-character. I get and even agree with some of the complaints people have with the movie, but this one just isn't valid. If someone doesn't want to see it that way, that's their choice, but they're creating their opinion by ignoring parts of the OT.
     
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  3. Stryker055

    Stryker055 History Man Extraordinare

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    Uh-oh, someone wasn't paying attention. It was Snoke who formed the bond between Rey and Kylo, as he explicitly says. He was able to use their natural connection in the Force to facilitate the powerful Force Bond. What Luke did was on a whole other level. I (and many others) have gone into detail on how Luke's death isn't about the feat itself, but rather him finally finding peace in the Force and reconciling with the burden of his legacy. If your takeaway was just "Luke used the Force so hard it killed him," you're kind of ignoring how effectively it culminates his entire character arc and the thematic buildup from the entire movie.

    Now that's some hyperbole because the TPM puppet was absolute shit, and the one used in TLJ is practically identical to the OT puppet. The visual dissonance of seeing a puppet straight from 1980 in a film with modern visual effects technology, combined with the Force spirit effects, will make everything seem off at first. Give it another watch and it'll feel much more natural.

    But why can't it be? Were the specific characters of Luke Skywalker, Leia, and Han Solo the only things that made you a fan of Star Wars? Or was it the dazzling universe, the themes of growth as a person, the hero's journey, finding inner balance, moving on from the past, and accepting hard truths? Star Wars was never truly about its characters; they were only a vessel for its deeper meanings, which now have even more power as we see them being passed onto a new generation (as all wisdom must do in order to survive).

    But hey, if you can't get on board, that's understandable. This film was always going to lose a lot of people in moving the franchise forward.
     
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  4. ShinGi

    ShinGi Well-Known Member

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    It just wouldn't feel right to recast Leia after Carries death , I don't know what they will do for 9 but I hope they don't recast or use CG
     
  5. Galvatron II

    Galvatron II I can type whatever here?

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    I don't know about brilliant... Best of a bad situation, for sure.

    Looper is phenomenal and well regarded. Homeboy also did Brick and the greatest episode of television ever produced
     
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  6. Ash from Carolina

    Ash from Carolina Junior Smeghead

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    Part of the problem might be that people hyped the movie up in their head to be the next The Empire Strikes back. Putting on expectations in advance that the movie would never be able to hit because The Empire Strikes back was a moment in film history that can't be repeated.

    It also seems a bit rough to pass finial judgement on the movie with it being the middle chapter of the story. It's just so hard right now to know if the set up in this movie will actually pay off in the third film. If the third movie doesn't have a big pay off then this movie will suffer in repeat viewings because of it. But if the third film has some big pay off then we might look back and say hey if they don't do this or they didn't do that then we could not have gotten where the bigger story needed to go.
     
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  7. smkspy

    smkspy Remember true fans

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    The "outer rim" stuff is such a crutch on the franchise. Can't explain something? They were on far away desolate planet in space no one bothered to monitor.
     
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  8. ArmadaJetfire

    ArmadaJetfire Yamato is go! ;D

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    Dude the unknown territory are on any star wars map of the galaxy. The big blank area to the west? That's unknown region, not the outer rim. No one except the Chiss mapped it. And who was friends with the Chiss? The Empire.
     
  9. Rodimus Prime

    Rodimus Prime Sola Gratia, Sola Fide TFW2005 Supporter

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    PT is about Anakin, Obi-Wan, and the fall of the Republic. While it was a pretty botched delivery, it was all about the OT story, and how the universe got in that state.
     
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  10. Haloid1177

    Haloid1177 Hey, That's Pretty Good

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    The prequels were more foreign to the franchise than what was put on screen for TLJ, or it would seem that way to me. Watch the OT, then watch the prequels, then watch the OT again, then watch the sequels, and see which is more in line with the OT.
     
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  11. TFXProtector

    TFXProtector Well-Known Member

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    People keep mentioning the loss of Admiral Ackbar, and how upset they are that there will be no more "it's a trap!" moments.

    I get it, I do. Sadly, I'm pretty sure his actor passed away last year.

    EDIT: He did indeed, unfortunately. Erik Bauersfeld - Wikipedia
     
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  12. Los

    Los Now you see me...

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    Well said.

    I still can't believe how much more people want the Big 3 in the new movies. It was always said this new trilogy wouldn't be mainly about them. But I do agree that another Death Star (Satrkiller Base) and another New Hope (Rey) are bit of a retread from OT. Maybe Rian's new movies will be different in this regard.

    Speaking of the Big 3...do you guys not remember what Mark Hamil looked like when TFA was announced? Getting in shape for these movies clearly extended his real life, lol. I am glad he did not get the Dooku CGI battle treatment. If there is any blame on getting more Luke/Han/Leia adventures, blame Lucas who spent years on updating OT and making PT. He should have let other directors step in with creative freedom years ago. I am sorry but I hate that even 3PO, R2, and Chewie are in PT.
     
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  13. Rodimus Prime

    Rodimus Prime Sola Gratia, Sola Fide TFW2005 Supporter

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    People didn't want them to be the main characters of the NT. They wanted proper send offs for them. Han and Luke both die as pretty much absolute failures in comparison to the growth they had in the previous trilogy. Heck, giving them high positions of power would've been a perfect excuse to leave them out of most of the movies.

    If the NT wanted to deconstruct the OT, then they should've remembered that deconstruction doesn't work if you fail to put it back together in some form by the end.
     
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  14. Los

    Los Now you see me...

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    High positions of power like a general in a Republic army and a Grand Master Jedi in a Jedi council? I would have like that too. Long ago...in a galaxy far far away.
     
  15. Haloid1177

    Haloid1177 Hey, That's Pretty Good

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    Luke's arc was put back together though.

    In the end, Rey restored his faith. He became the savior to the rebellion, the spark that will allow them to live on, and embraced the legend of Luke Skywalker that he had talked about earlier in the film. This movie successfully deconstructed the myth of the perfect Luke Skywalker, but still brought him back to not being perfect, but a hero. I don't understand what is a better send off then re-establishing Luke as the hero and inspiration for the Rebellion.

    I really don't get the idea that these people were supposed to continue on the high note that ROTJ left them on. How were they supposed to grow? Luke becoming a Jedi Master and being a teacher to other Jedi ultimately doesn't really move the character from what he had become in ROTJ. I mean, if you want to really look at this, Obi-Wan and Luke had very similar paths in creating a monster. Luke's arc isn't even unique to the universe, but yet it's right in with the failed Jedi Master narrative that was continually pushed in both the OT and PT. And it isn't like the Luke and Han complaints are similar. Some people say Han is the same character he was in the OT, but then Luke is too different? That screams of an idealized image that had circulated for years that people had just accepted, and now that it isn't the case they don't like it.
     
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  16. gregles

    gregles quintesson

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    It seems like the movie is attracting something of a backlash but the same could be said of every post internet Star Wars movie.

    I really enjoyed it and it felt way more satisfying than the force awakens.

    I felt repeatedly confounded and conflicted on how to feel about Kylo Ren which in my opinion is how you are supposed to feel about great villains.

    The twins Luke and Leia where both repeatedly fantastic even when they was upsetting me and bruising those feels.

    Laura Derns character was a nice surprise.

    The storyline did sag at times feeling uneven but it has me excited for the next episode and it carefully avoided my worst fears of it being a Jedi training montage heavy slog or a rehash of the empire strikes back.
     
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  17. Lazerwave

    Lazerwave My Most Prized Treasure

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    I reminded my boss about the talk we had about fights with father and son or brother and sister and she asked about employee and boss.

    I told her about Snoke's death and she laughed.
     
  18. AutoBobby

    AutoBobby The Collector

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    The only thing missing from the scene where
    Leia was out in space
    , was an appearance by Star-Lord. :lol 

    That scene will go down as one of the biggest WTF? moments in Star Wars history.
     
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  19. TattooedRobot

    TattooedRobot Too Much Horror Business TFW2005 Supporter

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    Or it shows just why Leia was such an iconic leader drawing so many to her. Not just a brave natural leader but a tough gal who can take an asskicking Superman it Leia, Superman it, I can dig it.
     
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  20. Rodimus Prime

    Rodimus Prime Sola Gratia, Sola Fide TFW2005 Supporter

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    Did she really? Because it seemed like he still considered Ben lost and unredeemable. He also died to save a handful of characters who were only there because the writer railroaded them into the situation. As for the whole "Spark of Hope" line, it's so manufactured that it feels hollow.

    Also, no founding a new order of Jedi doesn't mean leaving them only on a high note. There's a book series called The Dresden Files (where my avatar comes from, btw), and it's a perfect example of how one can grow and develop, even as one gains position and power. Both the author and the character loves Star Wars, and it shows, so I think the comparison is fair. There's one quote in particular, which I cannot recall exactly off of the top of my head, but he talks about how much he began to learn once he started teaching. Dresden is not an expy of Luke, but I think the potential for growth would've been just as possible for Luke. As for Han, his character growth was devolved into what it was in the original film, while Luke's was simply ran off the railings. People didn't want the characters to stay the same, or regress, but they did want the character development to feel natural. You can say it did for you, and we can disagree, but some people in here act like it's a mortal sin to say "No, it didn't work for me. It felt forced and unnatural to what we've known about the character up until this point."

    It takes 10 seconds for you to go blind in the vacuum of space, exposed as she were. 90 seconds (at best) until full death takes place. The Force, Wookies, etc. are part of constructed universe, so we can suspend our disbelief to accept them as part of the story. However, something like Superman Leia is going to break the SoD for a lot of people.
     
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