Star Trek vs. TF: ROTF, Nostalgia vs. Novelty

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Autobot HipHop, Dec 9, 2009.

  1. Autobot HipHop

    Autobot HipHop Covert Operations

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    You have to blame the writers for not adding some much needed personality to Nero. I'm not a fan of writers using a character's motivation (ie. his/her family was killed) as the only aspect of a character's persona. That single event should not solely make up a character's personality. Nero should have come across as completely insane, cold and calculating or mabe a mixture of the two. All we got was an actor delivering some stale lines. "Frequencies please sir" Cmon, this guy should be insane! Maybe Eric Bana could have done some more research and added some more depth to the character as well.
     
  2. SMOG

    SMOG Vocabchampion ArgueTitan

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    Thankyou, and I try. We who expect more need to stick together, right? Otherwise the Michael Bays and the OrciKurzman's of the world win! :D 

    zmog
     
  3. ams

    ams Generation All Veteran

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    A quick look at the box office receipts would suggest they've already "won". :lol 

    Still, one wonders how many more people could have been drawn to ROTF had some of the most basic elements of filmmaking been attended to more effectively.
     
  4. ZeroMayhem

    ZeroMayhem Henshin a Go-Go Baby!

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  5. Autobot HipHop

    Autobot HipHop Covert Operations

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    Nero could be a clone of Darth Maul in the Star Wars Universe. They both had about the same amount of character depth.

    Hey, we may not agree on Star Trek being a good movie but I demand more out of my movies too, Transformers included. Can I be a member of your little crew as well ;) 

    Seriously though. Someone mentioned Aliens as a good example of good chracterization in a sci fi. What are you guys examples? I'm a big fan of Empire Strikes Back. They didn't spoon feed us who the characters were they just came across as beliveable through dialogue, script and acting.

    If only the "success" of a movie wasn't always measured in box office receipts. But you bring up a very valid point. A certain amount of people are going to go see blockbuster movies regardless but the quality of the film is what makes it become, or not become, a classic and gives it staying power.
     
  6. SMOG

    SMOG Vocabchampion ArgueTitan

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    Yeah, I was thinking someone would bring that up. :( 

    Of course making a pile of money is not what I meant when I talked about those guys "winning". "Winning" would involve them finally reducing the entire world to brain-damaged sycophants who will watch anything and be "entertained"... anything to avoid stimulating their higher functions. Anything to avoid "elitism", right?

    In that sense, I guess they've almost won... :dunce 

    Exactly. Make a smart movie that is ALSO entertaining! Everybody wins!

    You're in!

    Like I said... I had fun with Star Trek. I just feel that it doesn't hold up well to any kind of scrutiny... which I think is the hallmark of a film with true longevity.

    Empire benefits from a good cast chemistry... from back when George Lucas still had some degree of perspective, and was able to keep his worst impulses in check.

    I'm going out on a limb here, because of course it's easy to hate that which is popular, but I would say that most of the Harry Potter movies do a pretty good job of balancing the various elements. Regardless of how you feel about the franchise itself, I think they've mostly been helmed by directors who actually care a tiny bit about making their film credible and engaging. The adult cast is generally excellent, and the child cast has been developing strongly throughout the series.

    Granted, there's already a pretty entrenched fiction (the books) that supplements the characters onscreen... and I agree that the movies do take that for granted to some degree. They sometimes cut things down to a shorthand that omits important details and leaves the casual viewer adrift in a sea of minor characters. But at the same time the Harry Potter movies do manage to infuse the characters and events with a surprising amount of subtext and meaning, beyond just the most sensational and obvious story points.

    Iron Man is an obvious example of a comic-book movie done right. Not too stupid, but not too heavy either... takes the subject matter seriously, while still keeping it fun, full of clever small touches, doesn't rush things, sticks close to the source... nice clean script. Of course, there aren't very many characters to juggle, so that makes it easier on them.

    I daresay, both Harry Potter and Iron Man did a better job with what they had than the much lauded Nolan Batman movies. Nolan did a LOT of things very, very right. His more realistic approach to Batman was long overdue, and his take on Joker was fantastic. But at the same time, he always seemed like he was in a rush. The final films are long, but still somehow always chaotic and congested. It's like he's trying to do too much at once, and the plot occasionally suffers for it. In a way, the parts of those Batman movies are greater than the whole.

    I don't expect that to be a popular point of view, but there it is. I still very much like Begins and Dark Knight, but as cinematic pieces of work, they're a bit piecemeal... elevated by great ideas, great art direction and great casting.

    zmog
     
  7. Terrorcon Blot

    Terrorcon Blot Well-Known Member

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    That's modern television, not modern movies.
     
  8. SMOG

    SMOG Vocabchampion ArgueTitan

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    Well, it's both really... but you're right. Television is a much more destructive influence. Movies tend towards a slightly higher standard, but all bets are off once you fall into the "summer blockbuster" genre. :) 

    zmog
     
  9. Wolfguard

    Wolfguard Your own personal Jesus.

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    LMAO! It actually is pretty damn funny when you see it like that. Personally, I find he's easily a step up from that turd, Shinzon. Nero looks and acts menacing. Shinzon looks and acts like he's been to a bad "House Music" party.


    As far as his job making him seem like a putz of an adversary, if you consider the term "going postal" got it's origin from an actual post office guy who blew a bunch of people away, one may appreciate that it takes all kinds of different people to commit evil en mass. So with that said, is it really far fetched to think a simple laborer with a ship who just lost his entire planet and much of his race could just be calm and collective after having all that happen to him?


    And y'know, I'm also thinking of a story about another pissed off space miner. You might have heard of that guy - goes by the name Megatron...


    :wink: 
     
  10. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    Mmmm... yeeeaaahhh... not exactly what I would call a "super-baddie" either. Altho I think he had is act more together than Nero.

    I do like Soren better than I did Shinzon. Gosh, that whole movie sucked.
    I even like Soren better than Stretch-face from Insurrection.
     
  11. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    I blame the writers for much.
    I digged MI3, and it's hard for me to accept that they also penned Transformers and Trek.

    TF1 was so lazily written. TF2 makes me think they redeamed themselves in storytelling (with many problems tho), but Star Trek makes me think it was a fluke.

    Looking back on MI3, TF1, Trek and TF2- can they come up with any ideas without resorting to some kind of maguffin?

    The whole basis of Star Trek was that Spock was late.

    But wasn't the whole point of the movie itself a singular statement to say that things were changed? Everything changed because of Nero destroying the Kelvin... but that's all the movie was about: Nero changing the face of this continuity.

    Really, this ranchise won't really start until the next movie. This movie was all about establishing the why's of the new universe.
     
  12. Sso02V

    Sso02V Injector Has a Posse

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    I think I'd like a kick in the balls more than I'd like Stretch-Face.
     
  13. SMOG

    SMOG Vocabchampion ArgueTitan

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    Alright, alright... ya got me there. :) 

    zmog
     
  14. Sso02V

    Sso02V Injector Has a Posse

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    Megatron has a much better haircut than Nero though.
     
  15. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    Star Trek snubbed by Golden Globes
    2009 Golden Globe Nomination Snubs - 67th Annual Golden Globes? on omg! on Yahoo!

     
  16. Ash from Carolina

    Ash from Carolina Junior Smeghead

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    Yea I think you just pointed to a really nice list of why box office is totally meaningless when it comes to the quality of a film. Really the only thing the box office tells you is how good was the marketing team, how smart the suits were to release a film when they did, or did they find a way to cash in on something in pop culture.

    I'm not even sure it would be totally fair to compare the box office of Star Trek to Revenge of the Fallen. Revenge of the Fallen could cash in on the relative goodwill the public had toward the first Transformers film while Star Trek had to overcome the last Star Trek film being so bad.

    Or can you say really compare GI Joe which had a first film to Revenge of the Fallen which was a sequel when it's well known that squeals almost always bring in more money than a first film.

    I guess next people will discount advertising and distribution to say that independent are bad because they don't bring in the money that big Hollywood films with multimillion ad campaigns bring in.

    Box office isn't about art, box office is about marketing. That's why awards aren't given out on the size of film's box office.
     
  17. ams

    ams Generation All Veteran

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    Interesting.

    Of the top 30, I've seen only eight... and of the bottom 70, I've seen none.

    Slow year at the movies for me, I guess.
     
  18. SMOG

    SMOG Vocabchampion ArgueTitan

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    I agree with what you're saying.

    But the list isn't a total wash. UP and The Hangover are right near the top. Both are very good for what they are. Harry Potter 6 was a pretty well-made picture as well, though at this point I'm amazed that anybody's still paying attention to that franchise.

    On the other hand, Wolverine is still in the top ten, and it was one of the few movies this year to compete with ROTF for utterly ridiculous plot stupidity.

    But your point stands... the movies on this list are mostly EVENT movies. Spectacles. Broad appeal entertainment. Generally, they're not even meant to be "good". They're just meant to be well-timed, accessible and flashy. At this point, I'm pretty impressed if a self-conscious "blockbuster" film like that actually manages to be halfways intelligent. It's surprisingly rare.

    zmog
     
  19. General Magnus

    General Magnus Da Custodes of the Emprah

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    Yeah, yeah.. "Bayformers are dumb and anyone who dares to like the movie is a ****** blah blah blah..."

    We´ve been down this road several times....
     
  20. Awesomus Prime

    Awesomus Prime I rise, you fall.

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    Several? HA! Try several million.