Star Trek vs. TF: ROTF, Nostalgia vs. Novelty

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Autobot HipHop, Dec 9, 2009.

  1. Takeshi357

    Takeshi357 "Research"

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    Well what about Finding Nemo then?

    Or a lot of Disney movies in general with little or no human characters?

    Personally I think that if you shoehorn humans into your story "for the viewer to associate with", you're just lazy.
     
  2. Sizzle

    Sizzle Sparkabot

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    Yes, but those movies you mentioned feature heavily anthropomorphized characters. For instance, the characters of Finding Nemo are human; they just happen to look like fish.

    In the case of TF, there's the element of an alien presence invading EARTH, and you have to have a human perspective for that.
     
  3. ams

    ams Generation All Veteran

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    Back to ROTF for a sec... the part I think we'd all agree with is that the choices made for developing the human characters were poor...

    ESPECIALLY so, when we consider it's happening at the expense of developing the TF characters!
     
  4. Ash from Carolina

    Ash from Carolina Junior Smeghead

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    I think character had a lot to do with why I had so much geek joy out of Star Trek but left Revenge of the Fallen feeling really disappointed.

    When Kirk meets Bones for the first time, oh that's just top notch stuff right there. We get to find out the new universe Bones is even more bitter than the original Bones but the important thing is we find out why so there is motivation behind why he acts that way. There is actually some substance behind why Spock is conflicted between his Human and Vulcan sides. Really an excellent mix of enough of the past that I felt all comfortably at home and yet enough new twists to keep me excited about finding out more.

    I think the other big deal was that in Star Trek things seemed to matter. In Revenge of the Fallen things would happen but a little while later it seems like the story had moved on and what happened didn't matter. In Star Trek though it seemed to matter about what happened to Vulcan so it didn't feel like events were swept aside as soon as the big effects shot was over.

    What is kind of sad is that it might be one thing if you could just say that the problems were with the robot characters but even the human characters weren't connecting in Revenge of the Fallen. Sam has a lot of screen time but honestly I didn't feel any different about Sam than I did in the first movie. Or there were just so many human characters where it didn't seem like it mattered if they lived or died. Just something wrong when characters could get killed off and you'd say eh whatever.
     
  5. Deefuzz

    Deefuzz Beard On! Beardmaster! Veteran

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    Really? I wasn't aware that a movie that won an academy award, and grossed over $500 million worldwide was considered a huge failure.
     
  6. Coeloptera

    Coeloptera Big, bad beetle-bot

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    I will use the same example I seem to keep going back to in response to this particular bit of reasoning: Predator. Go back and watch that film. The relationships between the characters, some of their backgrounds, and their personalities were all very efficiently laid out in a pretty short time. Because of that, when Blain (Jesse Ventura) was killed, Mac's going totally apeshit had some dramatic impact, as did the later "guarding the body" scene at night.

    Or conversely, try Aliens for the same thing.

    Hmm...good points. We barely see Spock's mother, but we feel the emotional impact when she dies and learn more about Spock and Uhura's relationship just afterwards. Compare that to oh...any Autobot that died in RotF that isn't Optimus.

    - Coeloptera
     
  7. shroobmaster

    shroobmaster Well-Known Member

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    But isn't being a personality-less medic a homage to g1 Ratchet?
     
  8. Gingerchris

    Gingerchris Telly-headed Tyrant

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    G1 cartoon Ratchet maybe. The comic one got to show more of himself.
     
  9. shroobmaster

    shroobmaster Well-Known Member

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    But then you're implying that anyone except hardcore fans really give a crap about the comics characterization.
     
  10. jamspeed

    jamspeed Follow me on Instagram _jamspeed_

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    Star Trek had plenty of dumb stuff in it. Sulu and Kirk have an exchange where Sulu says he has Fencing training, so he goes on his away mission with a katana and starts fliping around like a ninja? Most of the "crew" got suddenly promoted just for the ease of fitting everything into the movie. The captain leaves, Spock steps down and out of everyone left on the ship next in charge is...Kirk, the stowaway? That makes no sense on a "realistically" based franchise like Star Trek. They never really explained "Red Matter", which like the Cube and Allspark is pretty much a Mcguffin. Also the writers mention The Empire Strikes Back as an inspiration for the movie, so lets have a scene in the snow with monsters chasing Kirk.

    Star Trek was fun to watch but far from the fantastic movie people make it out to be. It was beautifully visioned, the effects were great, acting was good, writing was average.
     
  11. TankRizzo

    TankRizzo Well-Known Member

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    you could make this point except for the fact that Ironhide, Jazz, Jolt, Starscream, etc. etc. all lacked any kind of discernible personality. In fact, the only characters other than Optimus and Bumblebee were over the top characterizations or stereotypes like the Twins, Wheelie and Jetfire.

    I think the biggest disservice and shortcoming of the movie is any kind of development of a protagonist's personality or their agenda short of the most basic, childlike drive of BAD GUY WANTS POWERFUL ITEM.
     
  12. JuicyNo

    JuicyNo Well-Known Member

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    He speaks my language.
     
  13. shroobmaster

    shroobmaster Well-Known Member

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    Slow down boooy, you can say all you want about how alot of characters didn't get personality like Sideswipe and Jolt, but the main Decepticons characters (Starscream, Megatron, The Fallen, The Doctor and Alice) made pretty clear what they were like, the doctor being the best considering you just got the character with so few lines (like what the voice actors said in some interview, some robots dont speak much so you gotta make what they say count)
     
  14. TankRizzo

    TankRizzo Well-Known Member

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    Starscream, Megatron and the Fallen are about as plain vanilla as you can get. I think you're mistaking being a bad guy with having a personality. They had nothing. The doctor goes back to my point about stereotypes/overcharacterization.
     
  15. shroobmaster

    shroobmaster Well-Known Member

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    Starscream was a total kiss-ass and a coward, even my VERY un-transformers-fan friend got it, Megaron was shown as a rather impatient leader but still loyal to his causa and reviving Cybertron and his master, The Fallen was a power-hungry villain that was willing to sacrifice whole systems and even his own brothers to get what he wanted and apparently was much more lenient to failure than Megatron (starscream does nothing bad at all and gets his ass kicked, Megatron fails in his mission, dies and gets a pat on the back? what the hell?)

    And I'm not even counting on the comics, just going from the lines and actions each had in the movie.

    Also Transformers is full of stereotyped characters, I really don't give a cra...iglist if you don't count the Doctor, I still think he was a pretty fun character with awesome lines.
     
  16. TankRizzo

    TankRizzo Well-Known Member

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    The lines are there.....it just simply doesn't translate. You understand in the most basic sense what they're SUPPOSED to be like, but other than being spoon fed this information you would be oblivious to it. It's like reading cliff's notes, you're being told how they are instead of reading the book and actually seeing and understanding it.
     
  17. shroobmaster

    shroobmaster Well-Known Member

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    What? That made no sense at all.

    How about giving up on this argument? It's not like I'll change my opinion or anything.
     
  18. Nightrain

    Nightrain Senior Villain

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    This needs to be repeated over and over because it really does go to the very heart of the problem.
     
  19. Chaos Prime

    Chaos Prime Combaticon

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    I agree with the OP opinion.
    Star Trek was a good movie. I loved the character interactions, and the story, and I thought it all worked rather well.
    Transformers 1&2 on the other hand is pretty much a clusterfuck of confusion and mayhem.
    Do you know how many times my roommate though Megatron died in ROTF during the desert battle bc so many protoforms looked like him, and the camera's were shaking so bad, that it was difficult to see anyway?
    The character developments are bad, the directing's bad, and the stories are okay. Honestly when Jazz died, I didn't care (and Jazz is my favorite character), I was outraged that he died, only because it served no purpose, but from a story aspect, I didn't care. None of the characters in the movie did either...that's a sign of a bad movie.
     
  20. Chaos Prime

    Chaos Prime Combaticon

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    Not to jump on you to harshly, but I disagree with you somewhat. I have no problem seeing the Transformers movie from Sams pov; he's the friend of the Autobots, but Leos pov? Agent Simmons pov? A nameless Australian womans pov? There were too many useless characters' points of view between both movies which could have been used for character development, or plot, or something relevant for the movie.