Star Trek Beyond (2016)

Discussion in 'Movies and Television' started by QLRformer, Jul 13, 2013.

  1. Wolfguard

    Wolfguard Your own personal Jesus.

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    Well, the movie isn't really a victim of this. It's straight and to the point. It's backed by articles as well. In contrast (as with previous "debates,") you're not offering much other than "nuh-uh."

    Nuh-uh.

    Sorry, but my claim has just as much merit as yours. You can't disprove it, therefore the possibility is wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide open.

    If you're not accepting conclusive evidence which is both written and visual, or backtracking on previous claims, you're absolutely moving the goal posts.

    How so? I cited examples based on visual observation. I'll gladly go into detail regarding my theories, but I am on the verge of a slumber...

    Citing written and visual examples is not any sort of "attack" whatsoever. It is a display of facts. If you don't accept what is in the movie, that's one thing. If you are telling others that what they have seen and heard is not what they have seen and heard, then that's something else entirely which absolutely merits a response.

    You'll excuse me for now. :thumb 
     
  2. Sparky Prime

    Sparky Prime Well-Known Member

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    There is more than enough evidence to go off of in the film that there is really no reason to believe otherwise.

    Certainly the Romulan government expected him to eventually die when they sent him to Remus, but it's also apparent they didn't really care what happened to him as long as as the Federation didn't find out about his existence. Otherwise, if they really wanted him dead, they would have just killed him when they abandoned the plan and been done with it.

    The Federation thought he was Reman because they couldn't get any information about him. That doesn't mean the Romulans didn't know. In fact, the most logical conclusion as to why the Federation had virtually no information about Shinzon is that the Romulans did know, and prevented the Federation from learning anything more about him. It wouldn't make any sense if the Romulans didn't know who one of their own best commanders during the Dominion War was, as you're suggesting.

    You're making some pretty big assumptions while also ignoring some key points to make those facts fit your line of thinking though.
     
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  3. Altered Prime

    Altered Prime Well-Known Member

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    IM NOt offering "nuh-uh" I'm just offering up and alternative way to see it

    And I do feel the film it's certainly a victim of not being able to be fully fleshed-out as well as inconsistent character portrayal of the romulans themselves
    But it just doesn't fit with the established facts without changing all the fundamentals

    there isn't enough detail on shinzons life to make any real conclusions out of
    you want to go into detail and example to explain them off as shemales?

    Seems like flame bait to me so I would rather not
    I don't believe I told people what they heard and what to believe

    I did explain earlier that I may have not been as clear or direct as I intended to be so maybe that's what you're referring to, and if that's the case again all I can do is offer an apology for any misunderstanding I may have caused

    I was just trying to offer up an alternative Theory to explain off the same issues with how the romulans acted, even you were complaining about them
    goodnight
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2017
  4. Altered Prime

    Altered Prime Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with that

    I feel the inconsistent character betrayal the romulans in general opens the door to what I suggest

    while I agree with you, we see that kind of stuff all the time in Star Trek and in dozens of other types of shows and fictions

    The bad guys never just kill their enemies when they have the best chance and it always backfires on them

    Let's just look at the episode unification from TNG, the romulans have captured Picard data and Spock. They try to force Spock into helping them but when he refuses they just use a hologram of him.

    Now the smartest thing to do would have been to kill Picard data and spock....... but no they leave them locked up in a room giving them the chance to break free and interfere with their plans

    I'm only saying it's possible that they also didn't know.... and that there's nothing proving definitively that they did

    The way i see it, it makes perfect that tge Romulan high command didn't know who he was durribg his rise in the ranks

    As you pointed out they wouldn't have want the Federation to know about the clone...... so why would they have knowingly deployed that clone in a war that they were allied with the Federation to fight?

    Doing so would have increased the risk of the Federation learning about the clone not the other way around


    I don't deny I'm making assumptions like I said this is a theory

    But I don't think the assumptions are that big
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2017
  5. lars573

    lars573 Well-Known Member

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    No it really is. In Westminsterian (IE the British parimentary system) parlance an new administration is a new government. As government and cabinet are synonymous.
     
  6. Sparky Prime

    Sparky Prime Well-Known Member

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    Inconsistent characters or not, that's really not enough to "open the door" to everything you've been suggesting here.

    Shinzon wasn't their enemy at the time though. He was meant to be one of their own operatives who became obsolete when they decided to abandon the plan. They made him their enemy of sending him to Remus rather than killing him.

    The situation in "Unification" was very different. Spock, Data and Picard were most certainly their enemies, and still potentially useful to them in one way or another, even with Spock refusing to cooperate. And clearly, they underestimated that they'd be able to break into their computer systems to hide themselves with holograms.

    This discussion didn't start out with you saying it's "possible" they didn't know. Your assertion has been that the straight up didn't know who he was. And either way, the evidence in the film doesn't really support that theory.

    As Data pointed out, the Romulans use the Remans as cannon fodder. Undoubtedly the clone was sent along with them, with the Romulans not expecting him to distinguish himself in combat.

    You've been making it out to be like it's a fact. And many of the assumptions you're making really doesn't make sense with the facts established in the film.

    Well I can't say I'm familiar with the British Parliamentary system to have known that. I guess the question becomes how would the Romans have viewed it, considering the Romulans were largely based on them.
     
  7. Altered Prime

    Altered Prime Well-Known Member

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    that's your opinion and I respect that

    But nothing I suggested is that far fresh and pretty much fits within what woukd be called "background information" without rewriting anything in the film
    Enemy?
    Maybe not at that time but the minute they decided to abandon the plan to use him to replace Picard he became a liability true there security and other plans that they should have dealt with more efficiently

    The "situation" in Unification may have been different but the best way to have dealt with the situation was exactly the same

    Potentially useful maybe but they would just as potentially dangerous . Killing Spock, Data and Picard would have prevented them from interfering with the plans and may have led to the success of their mission
    I apologize a few times for not being as clear as I intended

    Due to what I hope is a temporary disability with my hands I have been using a voice to text program that seems to be having issues with either my pronunciation a certain words or it's just not picking it up right. Either way it's leading to a lot of posting mistakes so again I apologize

    But I do feel the lack of evidence in the film does actually support the theory because the film doesn't go into that much detail on the issues of the clones past
    either way deploying him in the Dominion War would have been a great risk to the Federation finding out about him
     
  8. Altered Prime

    Altered Prime Well-Known Member

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    Thank you very very much
     
  9. Wolfguard

    Wolfguard Your own personal Jesus.

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    Which has as much merit as my shemale-pleather-Viceroy mom "alternative" point of view. You can imagine there's perhaps, maybe, possibly something more all you want, but it's unsubstantiated by anything other than your own musings.

    On this, we can agree 100%, but the unfortunate reality is that it's canon whether we like it or not. I'm perfectly fine with someone saying it doesn't work for their own "head canon" - that's perfectly fine. But there is more than enough dialogue and visual evidence to be able to piece together a semi-consistent narrative within this movie:

    Shinzon is a Picard clone.
    The ruling government which green-lit that project was replaced.
    Replacement government didn't want to get caught with a human clone and exiled the human clone to Remus.
    Human clone was cared for by Reman people in mines.
    Romulans abused human clone.
    As an adult, human clone proved himself in combat with Reman "cannon fodder" troops.
    Human clone was allowed to continue status as leader of cannon fodder troops.

    ^ These are all indisputable facts per the movie and subsequent articles on said movie.


    Yes, but my opinion it's backed by examples found in the shows and movies. The problem with Nemesis is the writer(s) don't seem to understand what the Romulans are on a psychological level. It's as if they were used only as a vehicle to drive Shinzon and the Remans to the front of the line in order to make them the primary villains and give them a cloaking device. The Romulans in this movie are absolutely aberrant to how they are generally depicted in the past, but the fact remains that this is canon. As I said, if people what to have their own head canon, that's fine - nothing wrong with that AT ALL. But what was in the movie, head canon or not, is defined fairly well for a less than 2hr film. I know who and what Shinzon is, who made him, who sent him away, and what he became per the dialogue and visual depiction within that film.

    The tight clothing, the bridge that looks like it could double as a disco that plays house or trance. The Matronly aspect of the viceroy caring for a human child and later as an adult. Shinzon is perhaps interested in Troi not only out of attraction, but also on some level of fashion sense ("May I touch your hair?" - Shinzon.)

    You see, anything can be made to sound plausible with the right amount of verbal embellishments and repetitive convincing. But it doesn't make it so.






    There are FOUR lights...
     
  10. Altered Prime

    Altered Prime Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure I can say how far little narrative have the same merit

    Nothing I suggested requires any shifts in the fundamental nature of the characters nor does it require any rewriting of the events or the canon of the film, it just requires a different point of view.My Scenario just paints a broader picture into Shinzons back story

    I will put my parts in bold

    The Romulans create a clone of Picard,
    but a new government body abandons the plan. Not wanting to get caught they exiled clone to the mines Remus expecting him to die.

    And he would have if not for the Remans , they protected him from the abuseive romulan guards, showed him compassion and taught him a great many things, they treat him as one of their own and give him a reman name, "Shinzon".
    , the romulan guards never report the clone survived because they feared it may be viewed as a failure on their part.


    During the dominon war , the romulan heigh comand decides to draft the Remans in and use them as "cannon fodder", but the high command Is unaware the clone is amoung the Remans.......if they knew it would be to risky to deploy him in a war that they were allied with the federation, the likelihood is the federation might find out about the clone

    The Remans prove to be formidable warriors, and one among them proves to be and effective commander and Shinzon is his name. It is at this point it is learned by 1 or more Romulan generals and or senators that Shinzon is the human clone they expected to die.Instead of killing him or revealing to everyone who Shinzon is they see an opportunity to seize power and overtake the government for them selfs. So they continue to keep his origins a secret and develop a plot to take over

    Shinons and the Remans then build their super ship and super weapon in secret and the rest of the events play out as we saw them

    ^ These are the facts of the film with some more back story added to explain some of the stupid and out of character actions, on the part of the romulans,that the film just expects us to accept and believe

    And just so that I'm clear and direct, subsequent articles and interviews are not Canon and I don't waste much value on them when it pertains to events And or character portrayals from within the body of the finished film

    and that's the beauty of my scenario.It fits within the borders of that criteria without making any real changes . You still know who and what Shinzon is, who made him, who sent him away, and what he became.

    It wouldn't be the first time that we see parts of a government engaged in actions that the rest of the government is unaware of

    It wouldn't be the first time that we see high ranking members Of a government keeping secrets and planning against their own government
    Sorry none of that screams "shemale" to me....... not even in some so-called stereo typical way
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2017
  11. Sparky Prime

    Sparky Prime Well-Known Member

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    It's not background information though. As you've said yourself, it's your own theory/alternative point of view. Some of which really doesn't match up with what the film establishes, at which point you essentially are rewriting the film.
     
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  12. Altered Prime

    Altered Prime Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say it was background information, I said it fits within the film as what would be called background information.

    And I don't see what of anything I suggest it doesn't fit with what the film established, but I could be wrong or maybe I wasn't clear so please if you like tell me what you feel either doesn't match or results in a rewrite

    You know I'm not above admitting when I'm wrong or mistaken so please I'd love to hear what you have to say
     
  13. Wolfguard

    Wolfguard Your own personal Jesus.

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    Apparently, even when the actual movie is quoted and/or referenced in said articles, which thereby reinforce the canon shown in the film.


    Noted.


    Noted.
     
  14. Altered Prime

    Altered Prime Well-Known Member

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    Why would it make a difference if the movie is called it's all referenced in the article or interview?

    It's no surprise when an article or interview about the movie quotes actual details from the movie.

    Let me try to give you a small example let's just say in the film we see a prisoner walking with a limp but the film never shows or says how he developed the limp.

    now let's say we read an article on the film that speaks about the limp and says that the limp was the result of a beating the character received by A prison guard.

    The only part of that article that is Canon would be the part that describes the character is having a limp, The part about how he got the limp would not be Canon because it was not in the film itself.
     
  15. Sparky Prime

    Sparky Prime Well-Known Member

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    Whether you're saying it is background information or could fit within the film as background information is semantics. You're still calling it background information, when it's not. It's your own viewpoint.

    The last several pages is filled with examples from myself and others...
     
  16. Altered Prime

    Altered Prime Well-Known Member

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    it is in no way semantics

    Saying something "can fit" or "could fit" and something "definitely fits" are two different things
    Not at all , None of the things you guys are cited completely renders what I have suggested as impossible


    I understand if you don't want to continue but if you don't mind again I ask you to please give me an example of something you feel would result in rewriting the official story
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2017
  17. Sparky Prime

    Sparky Prime Well-Known Member

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    You seem to be missing that it's your use of the term "background information" that I had an issue with. That term implies a degree of official status. It's like you're suggesting it could have been something that was talked about by the films creators behind the scenes, rather than your own views.

    That's your opinion. I've said my piece, several times over with examples cited from the film. If you want to just ignore all of that, then whatever.
     
  18. GoLion

    GoLion Banned

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    I would love to see a new take of Charlie X. I just don't think most movie going audiences would be down for that. They want the explosions. Charlie X (unless completely changed) doesn't really get into explosions.
     
  19. Altered Prime

    Altered Prime Well-Known Member

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    Official status depends on the context of the conversation and the words chosen in the statement itself

    I clearly said that it was my Theroy and where it can fit. The fact that I clearly identified it as a theory and spoke about where it could possibly fit clear me please is it outside the realm of official status

    But again I'm sorry if you feel I wasn't clear enough
    I'm not ignoring it what you say it it doesn't render any other things I suggested as impossible but that's cool maybe wie can butt heads again in the future