So long Murder Prime, we hardly knew ya.

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Lovecraft, Jun 9, 2018.

  1. Hound89

    Hound89 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2009
    Posts:
    2,687
    Trophy Points:
    262
    Likes:
    +851
    They were separate because of annatt
    Yeahh...thats not the movies...you dont thinknthats the backstory for ever series do you?
     
  2. Cryptwire

    Cryptwire Cybertronian Engineer/Sniper

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2010
    Posts:
    1,508
    News Credits:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    262
    Location:
    Restored & Unified Cybertron
    Likes:
    +1,297
    that's actually approximately the origins story of the Writers Room, with the Writers Room reconciling this and the other aspects of the Transformers origins to factor in the Quintessons to make for an overall cohesive, solid orgins story.

    And even then, the version of your origins - that Megatron and Orion Pax were friends once - was also incorporated into this, so...
     
  3. Hound89

    Hound89 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2009
    Posts:
    2,687
    Trophy Points:
    262
    Likes:
    +851
    I get that in theory that hasbro made the aligneed backstory to be the starting point

    But thats still not their orgin in the movies (or any thig out side prime rid and war for cybertron)
     
  4. Moy

    Moy Constructicons!

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2007
    Posts:
    10,451
    News Credits:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    312
    Likes:
    +3,954
    He was alright, maybe he went a little too far sometimes. Wasn't there a moment where Peter Cullen did not agree with some scenes?

    I'm still upset he killed the Fallen with ease. :mad 
     
    • Like Like x 3
  5. Paxtin

    Paxtin ...

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2008
    Posts:
    10,093
    Trophy Points:
    307
    Likes:
    +5,970
    Pretty much this. As much as the trailer for Bumblebee seems to be taking the films into a completely different tone, there is no confirmation that this is any kind of a reboot. Now personally, I'm not ruling out the possibility that this new film could be used as a soft reboot for a new starting point, but we're not there yet. Right now it's all speculation. It could very much still be 100% intended to be connected to the Bay films universe.

    I do hope not, but we don't know. So it's still a little too early to be celebrating.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  6. Dotmshockwave

    Dotmshockwave Decepticon Assassin

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2014
    Posts:
    1,441
    News Credits:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    197
    Likes:
    +829
    I mean. Idk. All I’m saying is if I were fighting pretty much the embodiment of Satan (the fallen). I’d be saying some screwed up stuff too.

    Also, your father figure, who is basically the last hero you have in your eyes (because now you have to be the hero icon for everyone). Who died for a noble cause, turns out to not be dead and has been plotting behind your back with your completely vile evil brother (who has tried to destroy earth twice, and killed you probably more then once, and nuked your entire planet almost wiping out your species) to enslave some of your closest friend’s entire race. Then your father executes your best soldier/friend. And then you have to kill said father figure because he refuses to change his ways.

    AND THEN. After you save your close friends butts from extinction THREE FREAKING TIMES. These people decide to straight up murder all of your friends and then CANABALIZE them for their own technology. I mean. I just really don’t know. If you saw your best friend on a table being sliced to pieces cause some cockroach needs more money, it might just push you over the edge.

    TLK is excused from this because the writers room clearly wanted an out for “murder prime” and they wrote it in a way he becomes officially murder prime through nemesis in the worst executed way possible.
    He honestly should have become evil through his own will. It would have made more sense considering how prime got more and more PTSD through the films. And maybe have him redeemed by the end (no way bay could pull off a story feat like that btw) but alas it will never be.

    Optimus has a noticeable progression in the films (besides tlk). Also, something else to note. Prime doesn’t seem to go completely murder prime until after he’s killed....no seriously. I mean he talks dirty in the forest battle but like others have said he’s always done that. He acts like a different guy once he’s been capped. Wouldn’t anyone? You’ve already freakin died. Like I mean cmon guys.

    Bay prime may have said a few non normal things and made questionable choices. But do I blame him? No. I don’t think anyone should. Look what that mofo lived AND died through. Like. You may not like how he acts. But at the end of the day. You cannot really blame him for being the way he is.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2018
    • Like Like x 4
  7. Kotori Sonoda

    Kotori Sonoda Mihono Bourbon's hero

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2017
    Posts:
    4,371
    News Credits:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    222
    Location:
    Brandt Gate
    Likes:
    +17,456
    Twitter:
    Instagram:
    I'm gonna miss your "give m your face" antics, Murder Prime. You'll always be my childhood hero :D 
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. QLRformer

    QLRformer Seeker

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2012
    Posts:
    25,154
    News Credits:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    362
    Likes:
    +14,377
    I’m offended by people calling Bayformers Optimus a murderer. He is a soldier. You can’t call soldiers murderers.

    With that said, the series does not allow Optimus Prime to be a proper hero. He doesn’t do much outside of killing the bad guys, which the human race manages with sufficient arms. And when he could be making the world a better place – the alternate duty of heroism from killing villains – he gets thwarted regularly:
    - in ROTF he argues about sharing tech with the government, saying it could be disastrous. While the events of AOE proved him right, it’s still him denying Earth potentially beneficial tech. At the end of Black Panther when TChalla promised to make the world a better place, I wondered why Optimus couldn’t do that. Of course, he was killed before the discussion could go any further, but we don't see the issue brought up again.
    - in DOTM he brings in Sentinel Prime, who turns out a traitor.
    - in AOE Attinger talks the human race into turning on the Autobots and creating their own robot army to defend them. Joshua believes he has a good argument, stating that for the sake of progress Earth needs to handle its own affairs, but that doesn’t help him much when Megatron takes control of said robot army.
    - in TLK he becomes Nemesis Prime, enemy to Earth. And at this point I doubt it took a lot for that to happen.


    You said it splendidly. The films' edgy and human-centred treatment - with the Autobots being supporting characters who are regularly abused/persecuted by humanity - has proven to be detrimental IMO.

    Because of the edginess what is a war between good and evil becomes a battle for survival, with the human race not wanting to get involved in the war and instead negotiating with the Decepticons in the hope that Earth will be spared. People who sacrifice freedom for safety deserve neither, and these films have humanity throw away the heroes to save Earth too many times to be really worthwhile.

    Optimus stands for Earth, and so Earth should be on his side.
     
    • Like Like x 11
  9. electronic456

    electronic456 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2011
    Posts:
    4,733
    News Credits:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    257
    Likes:
    +4,669
    I don't care what anyone has to say about their Optimus's. I think every version of Optimus would be disappointed to see this argument.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. BeePrime_WFCTX_106023

    BeePrime_WFCTX_106023 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2013
    Posts:
    1,083
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    192
    Likes:
    +525
    I think I lost brain cells reading the OP.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Jetstorm

    Jetstorm Wielder of the Keyblade

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2002
    Posts:
    2,163
    Trophy Points:
    312
    Likes:
    +418
    I love the movies’ take on Optimus.

    It was SO refreshing in Age of Extinction that Optimus was (rightly so) so fucking DONE with our bullshit.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  12. sladeprime

    sladeprime MS Paint Transformer artist

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Posts:
    1,640
    News Credits:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    232
    Location:
    Philippines
    Likes:
    +3,224
    TF1Optimus was wise. And fast enough to kill if it is needed without saying "I'll kill you" when Bonecrusher faught against him. Wise and effective.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. electronic456

    electronic456 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2011
    Posts:
    4,733
    News Credits:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    257
    Likes:
    +4,669
    In all seriousness,

    TF1 Optimus showed obviously the most restraint with him having his whole 'no harming humans' rule. Even when threatening Sector 7, he's doing it for good. To completely justify this phase of Optimus as 'murderous' is ludicrous to me. I mean Bonecrusher looked really rabid and determined to take out the Autobot leader. And you know what? Just one hot sword and that's all you need to do.

    TF2-3 is where I can understand the pain people have. But I never let those actions bother me and they go over my head easily once I remind myself of the universe. Also to be a complete murderer/psychopath is also to enjoy what you do. I don't see Optimus enjoying what he does when he kills, I see it like G1 Jazz's old motto: "Do it with style or don't bother doing it.". This video below is how I comprend a complete murderer who is even ruthless to his own allies.


    TF4 this time around has more context to what he does. I'm sure one member of this board knows this well enough.

    TF5 barely had anything for Optimus. I mean he just spouts "I'll kill you" right off the bat against Quintessa and then we don't really have anything from him until he's evil and cuts off the Infernocon heads. Kicks Megatron. Actually there's not much from Optimus in this film because he's barely in the movie.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. 96megatron

    96megatron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2013
    Posts:
    2,259
    News Credits:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    222
    Likes:
    +4,672
    What about when he accepts death from the Knights after almost killing Bumblebee and trying to sacrifice Earth to revive his home world?
     
  15. electronic456

    electronic456 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2011
    Posts:
    4,733
    News Credits:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    257
    Likes:
    +4,669
    I guess I'll say there is a basic core level to Prime's character is that he's selfless enough to not revive his home world at the expense of another unlike Megatron who's constantly trying to do so. And the Knights are some sort of respected hierarchy that he wasn't supposed to fight against.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  16. AOEGalvatronRox

    AOEGalvatronRox Collector

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2014
    Posts:
    2,439
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    222
    Likes:
    +8,486
    I laugh every time someone calls him “Murder Prime”. I mean, last I checked, he’s in the middle of a war with a bunch of fellow robots who are hellbent on killing any who oppose them.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. DOTM Bumblebee

    DOTM Bumblebee Funny Little Man

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2014
    Posts:
    9,528
    Trophy Points:
    247
    Location:
    Earth, presumably
    Likes:
    +10,679
    I think the major problem with Movie Optimus Prime is a lack of focus. We can see the progression of him becoming gradually more desperate and pragmatic, and we see events in his life that could very well shape him from the idealist in the first film into the increasingly more aggressive, battle-scarred soldier of the sequels. However, he rarely gets the focus needed to really establish that development. He always had to sit backseat to the human drama, because CGI is expensive and the runtime needs to be two and a half hours, for some reason. He does get something resembling a character arc in Age of Extinction, but again, the "I'll kill you!" and "Defend my family or DIE" lines go too far and feel out of character for someone who is supposed to be a good guy. The latter line would be fairly heartwarming if not for the last two words. I can't really cheer for someone who threatens to murder a potential ally if they don't help him achieve his goals.
    People rail against Marvel Comics G1 Optimus Prime for his compassion interfering with his ability to command, but at least that's a flaw that comes from a place of kindness and decency. People criticize Optimus Prime in the Transformers: Prime cartoon for being stoic, but at least there are character-defining moments where he acts as a father to his men and that he would rather choose diplomacy over violence. With Movie Optimus Prime, his flaws don't come from a place of decency (or at least, they go too far in the wrong direction to feel all that heroic), and the closest thing he had to an established dynamic with his fellow Autobots (beyond his troops beyond him being the leader they all respect and listen to) are his dialogue with Ironhide in the first film, and a throwaway line in the fourth that implied he raised or at least mentored Bumblebee.
    I have defended this character, but I can't ignore the problems that give people reason to dislike how Optimus is portrayed in the movies. We've all heard that the films will reboot the story following Bumblebee: The Movie, while being set in the same universe. If the reboot is set in the same universe, hopefully Optimus is once again portrayed as the more idealistic leader of the first film, who mourns his vanquished enemy even though he was left no choice.
     
    • Like Like x 7
  18. Galvatron II

    Galvatron II I can type whatever here?

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2013
    Posts:
    4,631
    Trophy Points:
    217
    Likes:
    +1,515
    Bayformers Prime does not have PTSD, none of the movies even hint at this (AoE aside), if that ideas even remotely on the table then it's not dramatized at all and if you argue that these movies paint some complex psychological portrait you're either being disingenuous or are an alien that doesn't process the sound and visual cues of a film the way humans do.

    Transformers' dialogue in the film's unfortunately trend towards non sequiturs. None of the voice actors have an actual character to work with and the sound engineers or editors or whoever picks whatever sound bites end up in the movie pick the most violent angry things they said in the booth because at least it conveyed some personality. So we end up with a finished product that inadvertently portrays all its good guys as violent assholes chiefing for bloodshed as opposed to one where they're a bunch of blank slates (see RotF for that alternative).

    Optimus is a little different. His character is more integral to the story and is thusly more heavily scripted. So, outside of action scenes, he actually has things to say that... Well, make sense in context. He feels like Optimus. But, in the action scenes, they don't want him to be silent, or just weirdly grunting, and the scenes aren't structured in such a way where he could have something clever or worthwhile to say, so they just direct Cullen to violently grumble for a while; "You die... Kill you... Give me your face... I am Optimus Prime!" And then sift through the takes to find something they can use.

    The end result is a contrast between the well drawn character who stands around and makes speeches, and the weird angry monster who comes out when they had a moment that was too quiet. Other than that, murder Prime's reputation is confined to his weird propensity for public executions and the line "We will kill them all!". Both of which are really just bad screenwriting; executing someone is a big deal and whatever your opinions about whether it's justified or not, it should be something the character has to grapple with and/or something that shows us how far gone they are OR it shouldn't be in the movie. It's just there because they wrote themselves into a corner and that was the only real way to resolve the scene.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  19. BigRed

    BigRed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2015
    Posts:
    2,224
    News Credits:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    222
    Likes:
    +4,972
    The best "Movie Optimus kill'' is probably saving Cade in AoE. Both times it's done to save someone and he bites the bullet and does it with no hesitation.
     
  20. Sam's_Bee

    Sam's_Bee College Autobot

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2008
    Posts:
    546
    Trophy Points:
    202
    Location:
    Northern Cali
    Likes:
    +296
    Murder Prime will never cease to amuse me.:lol  It was a bit of a shock to see him like that but it grew on me. He was a weary warrior who'd seen his friends hunted and killed on Earth. What started out as good even noble intentions quickly soured. So perhaps when he was turned in TLK it was because he was harboring that in his heart er spark er soul. It made him seem more realistic and not so hero on a pedestal.