Should Optimus have shown mercy? Spoilers inside!

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Black Oracle, Jul 7, 2011.

  1. TCracker

    TCracker R.I.P., 5/2019 Veteran

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    The plot and motivations of whole bloody movie is on theory, not facts. We are just assuming grundnorms of cybertronians based on the human disposition. I am not going to get into this debate, I'll just leave it here.

    I'll take it for what it is, a movie.
     
  2. Overlord Balder

    Overlord Balder Voices Slugslinger!

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    Here's the thing: You're using the exception as the rule,mass-murders DO NOT deserve to be spared, sure, one in one billion will find his way back to redemption, but the other billion will simply make the whole shit again.

    Optimus can't also predict the future, he must judge Sentinel basing on his present acts, the horrible things he did, not the things he COULD, POSSIBLY, BY A LOOOONG STRETCH do it.

    If he redeems: He's back, hooray.

    If he doesn't: Humanity will be hanging on the balance again.

    The risks. are. too. high.
     
  3. Wheeljack_Prime

    Wheeljack_Prime Searching for the Infin-Honey Stones

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    And people say the TF films are brainless and are not thought-provoking...
     
  4. fett51

    fett51 Member

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    Fair enough on assuming human norms, the entire conversation is pointless and not very interesting otherwise. Not sure what you're getting at in saying the entire plot/motivations are theory?

    But not account for Sentinel's past as his teacher and one of the best Autobots? And, the whole reason for my objection is that Sentinel is not the typical mass-murderer - everything he did was about one very specific goal. Most mass-murderers are like Megatron - after power. And I have zero objection to Optimus killing Megatron.
     
  5. Overlord Balder

    Overlord Balder Voices Slugslinger!

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    Yes he was one of the best, but comitting genocide and be flat-out trying to kill at cold-blood all of the Autobots [even backstabbing one of the best soldiers and showing no remorse for it] weights a lot on someone's judgement.

    The problem is: Sentinel never showed any remorse for his actions, never showed any kind of guilt or even reflection over the atrocities he did, he was happy with it, I could even say he was proud out of everything he did.

    He never, and I repeat, NEVER showed any kind of remorse what-so-ever.
     
  6. fett51

    fett51 Member

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    I'm not saying it makes up for what he did in the slightest. I'm saying that it shows that apart from his "I MUST SAVE CYBERTRON" berserk button he is not nearly so insane in his methods.

    Forgetting about the "Forgive me" when he space bridged the cons in from the moon?
     
  7. Overlord Balder

    Overlord Balder Voices Slugslinger!

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    I agree that Sentinel is better than Megatron [Sentinel is more of an Anti-Villain or an Anti-hero], but that doesn't make him redeemable at the slightest, being better than Megatron is like being better than that German Guy we all know: It's not much of a feat.

    The problem is that "I MUST SAVE CYBERTRON" is a really freaking problematic bersek button, given the lengths Sentinel went.

    It's like that German guy [Godwin's Law be damned] with his objective of "pure race": Yep, just one "berserk button", but look at the lengths he went to accomplish.

    Still, not nearly enough to warrant redemption.
     
  8. fett51

    fett51 Member

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    Well, that gets back to the disagreement about whether or not Cybertron still could be saved after the space bridge explosion. Without reopening that can of worms, my view is that it was beyond saving, and if that's the case his berserk button is removed and given the character's history I don't see why he would still be a threat. If Cybertron could still be saved, then he's absolutely still a threat and killing him was the right thing to do.

    Not in and of itself, but it shows that some semblance of a conscience was still intact in there, which lends itself to my previous point.
     
  9. Overlord Balder

    Overlord Balder Voices Slugslinger!

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    My view is that still could be saved, the Transformers Universe is large, there are others MacGuffins around the globe, and other [even if implausible] ways to bring it back, he went to far to return, he'll just aim for something else [like a new plot to Cybertron and/or revenge] and do it.

    It's like Barbossa on POTC3: "There's more than one way to become immortal."

    That's what I think.

    Some very light rensemblance, not enough to warrant redemption in my opinion, given that was the only time he showed any kind of remorse.

    In Chicago he was all "How doomed you are, Autobots!" [and I quote].
     
  10. SKowl

    SKowl Rubber Golem

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    Ok then, how about a fair trial?

    The pro-execution crowd seems to be getting off course here. I, for one, am not arguing the fact that Sentinel could have been redeemed or anything. What I am arguing is that Sentinel is a war criminal, and since he was unarmed and defeated at the end of the film, the only moral and "legal" decision would have been to take him prisoner and give him a trial. No, it's not what you bloodthirsty vigilantes want, but sometimes people don't always want what's right... just because something happens on the battlefield doesn't give Prime carte-blanche to do whatever he wants. In the human world, if a soldier kills an unarmed prisoner, he gets court marshalled and goes to jail.

    And yes, I know the old "blah blah TFs are aliens and don't play by our rules" excuse, but if the previous films have thought me anything about the movie TFs it's that, aside from their looks, they are pretty much exactly like us, right down to Devastator's nutsack. So I don't buy that argument.

    If some crazy murderer killed my family and I killed him in return, that's still murder, and I would still go on trial to face my punishment. If the TFs are so advanced as they say, I'm assuming they have a justice system and that people are innocent until proven guilty, no matter how guilty you feel they are.
     
  11. Batman

    Batman The Dark Knight TFW2005 Supporter

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    I find it kind of funny that the Decepticons take prisoners, while the Autobots do not.
     
  12. Wheeljack_Prime

    Wheeljack_Prime Searching for the Infin-Honey Stones

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    Not prisoners, trophies.
     
  13. Overlord Balder

    Overlord Balder Voices Slugslinger!

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    Here's another thing everyone keeps forgetting about the TFs on the movie-verse: Cybertron's judiciary system was destroyed [alongside pretty much every single damn piece of the Cybertronian politics], the only arm of the law left is Optimus, he has the absolute authority to judge the war-prisioners and give them the best punishment.

    There are approximadetly five Autobots left in DOTM, all of them wanted Sentinel dead [and Optimus was obviously aware of that fact], Optimus simply did a five-seconds long court-martial upon Sentinel.
     
  14. SkyfiRe71

    SkyfiRe71 Precursor

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    Literally :lol 
     
  15. Prime82

    Prime82 Optimus knows all

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    I think they should have had megatron taking out sentinel and they are both hit with missiles and die. Irony is the best policy. Optimus wouldn't execute someone as if they were a dog no matter what. Now if megatron killed sentinel and Transformed into truck mode and optimus drove after him and they had a battle, with megatron getting killed, that's fine. But megatron said where would you be without me, and prime just goes after him....can't say it was a great ending
     
  16. Ra88

    Ra88 Dutchman!

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    I don't mind that Sentinel died, it was obviously going to happen. I just don't like how it happened. That's the core of the problem for me. Heroes don't execute the bad guys when they are down, beaten and begging for mercy, and it feels horribly out of character for Optimus that he did just that.
     
  17. Sportimus

    Sportimus Well-Known Member

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    Sentinel did what he thought was right. So did Hitler. Ivan the Terrible, and Napoleon. Sentinel's intentions were good, but his methods to accomplish his goal was disasterous and too costly. He was willing to essentially enslave and destroy one world to save another.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that the Autobots and Decepticons have been at war with each other for thousands of years. This will wear down even the noblest of heroes level of mercy towards his/her enemies and traitors. Optimus is smart enough to know that once Sentinel is given mercy and has a chance to "heal", he could still turn on Optimus. I know it sounds cold, but in reality, you cannot allow that kind of risk to exist.

    Finally, if it wasn't for Megatron intervening, Sentinel would have killed Optimus which shows that Sentinel had more skill and power than Optimus. Looking back, Optimus did show mercy to Sentinel in that Optimus tried to reason with him. Sentinel threw it in his face and demonstrated his strength over Optimus at least once in the movie before the final scene. Sentinel was given his chances, and he refused to listen to reason.
     
  18. Autovolt 127

    Autovolt 127 Get In The Titan, Prime!

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    ^this is exactly why people dislike Bayformer Prime even though in reality why would you let a guy who commits crimes againist humanity (litterally) live.

    Besides in a Michael Bay movie all Bad guys hav'ta die.
     
  19. fett51

    fett51 Member

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    Notwithstanding Earth being a Cybertronian macguffin magnet, the latter part is what I object to - his problem was bad methods, not bad goals (saving cybertron isn't a bad goal, as you said it's how far he was willing to go that made him a monster). It's also clear from what we know of his past that no other cause in his history had prompted him to act unethically, nevermind genocidally. Hence my view that losing Cybertron was his berserk button, and why I keep demanding evidence from the film from anyone claiming he's suddenly the same as Megatron.

    I differ on that - between the forgive me line and letting Optimus go in DC it looks to me like there was some old Sentinel still in there. As for the line you mention, it was followed by the spock quote, right? I read that as "Autobots, get in my way and I'll kill you" like most of his other Chicago lines, and I don't see how that's different than "We will kill them all" - it's war.
     
  20. Transfotaku

    Transfotaku Transformer Otaku

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    How is Optimus going to arrest a guy that is more powerful, more experienced, still heavily armed, with one arm and no weapons?

    Optimus is the law for Cybertronians. Sentinel's deeds were judged. Sentinel dug his own grave, everything he did was worthy of an execution, that's the fair trial.

    But, a more important question is: Why do you want to give an ENEMY COMBATANT a fair trial while HEAVILY ARMED AND ARMORED and ON A BATTLEFIELD? That's not how WE wage wars, why should they do it differently?

    We don't try to arrest people shooting at us, or trying to kill us with IEDs. We shoot to kill. Bang. You're done. The fact that Sentinel WAS an Autobot in the past doesn't enter into it. He no longer is, he's an enemy to all the Autobots and the planet Earth, and everything he wanted was at the expense of all of our planet.

    Sure, arrest him. What criminal court gets him on Earth? Do the Bots have jurisdiction on all Cybertronians, or does America cause Chicago was destroyed? UN? If humans would judge him, some of our people would protest for killing him now, some would protest for letting him go, some would try to jailbreak him. And in the end, Sentinel would get out of jail and continue his plan, and all living things on Earth wind up dead, end of story.