That is true.

Megatron came here with hostile intent and I can understand Optimus elimnating a person who has threatened Earth and it's people twice. And we all know how protective Optimus is of the human race.

 

Sentinel had begged for his life. Megatron offered a truce.
THAT's what makes Optimus's actions so unlike him.

 

Caligula probably begged for his life as well. And I would still cut off his head with a flaming axe mid-way through his begging.

 

And they were both lying!

OPTIMUS, I'M SORRY!
(But what I did was right and i still belive I'm a GOD and the humans are trash, also killing your best friend from his back? that was totally justified!)

PRIME, WE NEED A TRUCE!
(But only if I remain in charge of everything! you're nothing without me anyway, also pay no attention to me just betraying the last guy I had a truce with!)

Optimus saw trough that BS, not killing them would be a foollish choice.

 

The movie should have ended like the novel. But Megatron getting Sub Zero'd was entertaining.

 

Megs killed Optimus once in ROTF. Pretty hard to accept truce from a guy who murdered you once before.
I don't get the Sentinel kill though. He's down, no longer a threat. Cybertron gone, no more hope. Sentinel probably couldn't make it anyways from the bad wounds. War is over. The movie could have ended without Optimus executing Sentinel.

 

Sentinel betrayed his kind, killing Ironhide. He was responsible for killing humans. Would you want to leave an injured Adolf Hitler alive to rise to power and do it all again if you had him down for the count. I wouldn't. BOOM. Problem solved that can't possibly come back to do it all over again. End of story. World saved. Lives saved.

 

That's war. I've got no problem with that, or Optimus killing Megatron it DotM, he was obviously still a threat. My position is that there's no evidence Sentinel was a threat when Optimus killed him, so it was wrong to kill him.

And I did read the thread before posting in the first place. If I found any of the arguments persuasive I would not have de-lurked.

But he wasn't monumentally pissed at Megatron for causing the whole war in the first place? That scene you mention proves that he doesn't let his emotions get in the way of accomplishing his goals. That's why I think with Optimus being the only game left in town in terms of saving their race, he'd go with it and be very helpful even if he was infuriated by what happened. He just can't be allowed unsupervised or put in charge of anything.

Also, I'm going to try to condense this into what I see as our major points of contention rather than going by quote just to keep this from becoming a total nightmare to keep straight, let me know if you think I've missed something.

I think you're being too literal there - the part of cybertron that came through was significantly bigger than the earth. The earth simply does not have enough mass to replace what is now missing from cybertron even if the entire planet were used, nevermind replace the entire world. His plan was about repairing damage done by the war, not rebuilding the entire world from nothing.

*blinks* Per the first film Megatron had been frozen for thousands of years. More than a few thousand and humans would've been living in caves when he crashed, to say nothing of how low the population was back then or our total lack of technical understanding. We'd have made really crappy slaves for restoring an enormous robot planet until the last couple hundred years. If that's seriously what the writer/Bay intended that was some damn sloppy writing.

No, it makes him someone who believed what confirmed his pre-existing beliefs (and was convenient for his agenda) instead of finding the real facts. That's called confirmation bias, and it's no basis to claim someone is lifelong bigot, if it were none of them would ever change. Also worth mentioning he's wrong in thinking we regard them as mere machines - I don't think anywhere close to a majority of us would be blind enough to look at a sentient robot older than human civilization and think "it's just a toaster." So unless he arbitrarily hated us for our inherent squishiness, he would have had to change his mind when he got his facts straight.

When I say Optimus has no right, I'm not questioning his legal standing, I'm questioning his ability to judge. I can think of no better example than King Ashoka of India to illustrate my point regarding redemption here. If you don't know, he lived 2,200 years ago, and early in is reign he fought a war that ended up killing about 100,000 people. Right afterwards he did a complete 180 and spent the entire rest of his reign doing ridiculously ahead of his time things like giving equal rights regardless of caste or religion, granting freedom of religion, freeing his country's slaves, trying to implement universal healthcare and protect the environment, giving humanitarian aid to neighboring countries, pushing nonviolence and overall doing a tremendous amount of good for humanity. If he'd been killed right after his war, the country would've gotten stuck with another petty tyrant king and been much worse off in the following decades. I think Ashoka's case shows that anyone not an ax-crazy psychopath is redeemable and killing someone just because they have done wrong is often shortsighted. Sentinel was apparently once a paragon of the Autobot way, if anyone deserves a second chance, it's him.

No it doesn't depend on the ideology at all. Since nobody can prove their ideology is the one true ideology, we're left with the fact that people choose their ideology and believe in it because they want to. Which means that killing Sentinel because of an ideological view about what justice demands translates to killing Sentinel because he wanted to. Put another way, Optimus placed a higher priority on his unproveable ideology than he did on another being's life. By contrast, killing Megatron was a choice between taking one life or by inaction allowing many more lives to be lost. There is no uncertainty there, and the choice is between one life or many, not something as insubstantial as ideology.

As for Sentinel being a threat, you know I think he had nothing to gain by continuing to fight, and that he's not the type to fight out of spite. Which would mean he was no longer a threat.

I agree, which is why I picked fusion power as an example: We already have fusion bombs, they're known better as hydrogen bombs. The main reason we haven't gotten fusion power done is lack of funding for research.

 

You failed to catch the message: He only teamed up with Megs to save Cybertron, and promptly kicked Megatron's ass when Cybertron was saved.

And Megatron caused the war but then he was clearly willing to rebuild Cybertron alongside Sentinel with promises of power, he agreed to change.

But Optimus? Who DESTROYED [half of] Cybertron willingly? Let the AllSpark be destroyed and all? [And a guy that would never risk mankind to save Cybertron].

Besides, When any other enemy with promises of power arrive to Sentinel, he would backstab Optimus again.

As I keep saying, you keep giving him too much of a free-pass: Killing an Autobot, ordering the destruction of one city and allying yourself with your worst enemy is not to be taken lightly.

I'll make a comparision:

Patton backstabs the Allies, kills the President at cold-blood, sides with The Axis and orders a massive air strike that kills hundreds [if not thousands] in Chicago and takes over the city, then says he handled the Atom Bomb technology to the Axis and that is just a matter of time until USA and the country of the Allies are bombed into oblivion.

Patton fights to keep his plan going almost kills some brave American solider, but eventually they stop him, he's left bleeding in the ground, he asks for forgiveness.

Would anyone, on sane mind, give him forgiveness?

As I keep saying, we never saw Sentinel's plan unfold, we know he wanted our resources and to enslave us, he could simply use us as fuel for a machine to create a Energon burst, or make us strip the minerals of Earth then send it to Cybertron or make the same thing to create a giant machine to harvest potatoes, e.t.c

That's what I meant.
That half left would be even easiear to rebuild now that there's only one left, even faster.

He wouldn't change his mind, trust me, we helped to destroy [half of] his precious Cybertron, he would not pleased with that.

As I said, you keep giving him too much of a free-pass, his actions are not to be taken lightly, the guy comitted a genocide on Chicago and isn't giving a damn to Optimus' life or anyone's life, if he were simply doubtful in changing sides, I'd give you that point, but he went full-fledged Decepticon, killed hundreds, backstabbed Optimus and his dialogue makes clear he lost any chance of redemption ["We were GODS back on Cybertron! Here they call us machines!", "I give you Cybertron and you prefer Humanity!"].

Sentinel Prime twists reality to see what he wants to see, he wants to see we're vermins to shift the guilt from him to us? He'll se that. He wants to see Optimus dropped the ball to not recognize he went to far? He'll see that. He wants to see Optimus is wrong to not recognize his twisted thoughts? He'll see that. He wants to see him as a savior of Cybertron to not recognize how foolish he was on allying himself with Megs? He'll see that.

The problem is: Optimus can't see the future, let him live, good things that can happen: Technolical advances for Earth and a good mentor to the future, Bad things that can happen: Death of every single Autobot and the downfall of mankind and the destruction of Earth singlehandedly.

Basically, the risk is too high.

The story of King Ahsoka cannot be compared because we [or at least I] didn't see the events in his War, if he acted as a complete badshit crazy psychopath who wanted his country to be ahead of the rest of the world and murdered one of the greatest heroes of his time, then proceeded to comit a genocide one hundreds, then sided with the greatest tyrant of all time who also comited countless genocides, THEN ordered the execution of his apprentice at cold-blood, THEN tried to destroy the whole world through a scheme he himself recognized he would never go back and wouldn't ever admit he was wrong, IF Ahsoka did all that then went to the "goody" side, you'll have made a point. If he didn't, then we can't compare them.

Or believe because they think that's what the right think to do.

You're simplifying the situation a lot: Optimus clearly didn't want to execute Sentinel, you can see the look on his face after he kills him, the way he throws Megatron's gun away then looks at the horizon.

He killed him not because he wished to, but because it was the right think to do: Kill his mentor to not risk mankind, kill his mentor to preserve the image of a wise he once knew.

What do you mean he's not the guy who "fights out of spite"? he clearly kicked Megatron's ass because he dropped the ball on Cybertron, he never enjoyed his alliance with Megs, he only did to save Cybertron, when his alliance was over, he pretty much whent all badass and casted Megatron aside like a bitch, with [half of] Cybertron destroyed, Sentinel would go nuts.

Exactly.
Now imagine America with Cybertronian technology, just try to picture the sheer slaugther on your mind.

 

Why oh why did they kill Jerry Wang without mercy! They could have at least put him in a cage or something....

 

NO! Sentinel was an appeaser. He compromised the value of freedom to Optimus, who Optimus learned it from. He was willing to give up freedom for survival. Of course Prime wanted no war and the survival of his planet, but not at the expense of another's freedom.

 

one word:no

 

This.

 

blow his punk ass away...prime should've kept shooting

 

Optimus hated shooting Sentinel,it just had to happen.

 

no mercy for murderers, should we in the real world show mercy to ppl who kill other ppl?...hell no....sentinel killed ironhide and tried to kill many others and was responsible for human deaths and was going to enslave a whole planet why show him mercy..."oh i know you killed my oldest friend, the twins, many humans and yadda yadda but i forgive you and shall give you another chance" might aswell show megatron mercy

 

I think we got to the discussion of (real life) death penalty. Whether it can be justified or not. As far as I know, the UN is basically against it, yet it is in use in China, some Arabian countries, and some states of the USA. There is a religious Christian country (I don't know which) where death penalty is in use theoretically but they pardon the criminals after a few years spent in prison.

With these many choices given, I doubt Optimus Prime should have chosen to follow Californian (?) law.

 

You're arguing hypotheticals. He could have done this. He could have done that. He may have, perhaps if, might have been...

You can't argue hyptheticals, because we can do the same: he could have wiped out all humans. He could have used his space bridge tech to destroy Earth. He could have killed a -severely- damaged OP then the rest of the Autobots and continued his plans. He could have done far far worse.

OP judged him on what he has done. The actions he took. No more, no less. Sentinel's actions deserved Sentinel's death. No more, no less.

OP did only what he had to do to save everyone. That's all. And he didn't like doing that either.

And that's that.

 

Why can't this thread DIE?

 

It would seem I have touched on a divisive fundamental question about when killing is justified. And many are eager to justify Optimus' actions.