Should 3P MP be Slavish to the Toon?

Discussion in 'Transformers 3rd Party Discussion' started by CVprowl, Oct 22, 2015.

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Should the MP line be base only on the G1 cartoon appearance?

  1. YES. Make it exactly like the cartoon.

    53 vote(s)
    18.9%
  2. No. Blend multiple G1 media to create the ultimate representation.

    202 vote(s)
    71.9%
  3. I don't care either way.

    20 vote(s)
    7.1%
  4. I don't collect MPs.

    6 vote(s)
    2.1%
  1. DogFriedRice

    DogFriedRice Well-Known Member

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    I know what you mean.
    However, if you look at the poll it shows that those people are in the minority. This surprised me considering how many posts they make regarding it. Guess they are one of these loud minorities.

    As for MP designers....I don't think I own a single non-Hasui MP.
    Very similar to comics. If the art isn't to my liking I generally skip it.
     
  2. AnonymousDwell

    AnonymousDwell Well-Known Member

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    Is it not possible to disagree without insulting people's intelligence and perception?

    It depends on what the individual in question means when they say "cartoon accurate." I do consider MP-10 cartoon accurate, by my standards and for my needs. Because for me, "cartoon accurate" does not mean some super-deformed pixel-for-pixel recreation of an animation cell.

    It means a three dimensional compromise representing a sort of "visual average" of what various Sunbow animation scenes might look like if he were proportional, as well as being a fun, transformable toy in the real world.

    That's what "cartoon accuracy" means to me. So for me, the second option in this poll actually means "cartoon accuracy" to the extent possible in a functional, transformable figure.

    As to the topic... should 3P MP be slavish to the cartoon? IMO 3P MP should do whatever designers want. I love that there are a variety of options for people of different tastes. As far as I'm concerned, it would be great if everything from Beast Wars to Armada to Studio Ox G1 to straight G1 to cartoon G1 to Energon to IDW to... etc. could be represented by MP scale 3P.

    If the question is what I want personally though - which seems to be what everyone is choosing to discuss - then yes, I want it to be toon accurate, by the standards outlined above. But that's just me and what everyone wants - as should be obvious and acceptable without resorting to hostility - differs.
     
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  3. CVprowl

    CVprowl Done

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    Thank 3P for sticking up for us non cartoon only crew.

    Obviously not everything made is not-totally-toon, but there has been enough effort there (I think) to make those of us with a blended nostalgia significantly happier. :) 
     
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  4. evilash3373

    evilash3373 Well-Known Member

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    The toon was a cheaply, inconsistent, poorly animated piece of crap. If I wanted something that looked like the toon I would feed my cat a box of crayons an fish the masterpieces out of the litter box afterward.

    NEVER GO FULL TOON!
     
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  5. Ragnar454

    Ragnar454 Well-Known Member

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    I’m more for the MP-10 look. If one end of the spectrum is stylized with lots of line work and the other end is flat with no details, I like the middle, leaning a little towards toon. A good face, accurate alt mode, accurate color scheme, and size. But with some detailing and paint apps.

    I like the 3p Dinobots and not sure if I would like yellow toon on them instead of the gold. There are pieces that I would like to look more toon, like badcude Brawn, but that doesn’t mean take away the detailing. The new OPs coming out look like over sized Walmart titan guardians, so I think I’m sticking with mp10.
     
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  6. nacho

    nacho Well-Known Member

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    The "blend" is something that seems lost on a lot of fans. No one wants giant toy-slavish bricks, especially for characters whose toy and toon representations were very different, and a lot of people don't want toon slavish figures based on poorly drawn animation and limit color palates. However, the level of detail/mix between the two is debatable and really hard to land on a consensus.

    I pitched this theory to @G.I.EDDIE the other day. I'm not sure if this holds true for anyone else, but the amount of toy detail I want on a figure is directly related to whether or not I owned the G1 toy. I was an avid collector and amasses most of the '84-86 lines. And thus I typically lean toward wanting toy-details for most bots (except the Ratchets/Ironhides of the world b/c the G1 toys were awful). Reprolabels makes me happy when they put out toy-centric sticker sets for G1 MP bots. However, when I look at the sticker sets for characters I didn't own and had most of my exposure via the cartoon, then I tend to prefer the simpler look. Somehow, I didn't own Blaster or Springer, so their toy-detail stickers look horrible and ultra-busy to me, while I couldn't wait to detail up MP Prowl and Sideswipe, as those toys were among my favorites. But it's almost universally true for me that the level of detail I want is directly related to my dominant exposure to each character. Anyone else notice this in their preferences?
     
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  7. pezley

    pezley Well-Known Member

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    The line will go where the market dictates. typically this is where Takara decides to take it and currently that is toon accuracy. Referring to it as 'slavish' is ridiculous. It's a replication of designs they created and are now bringing to life. Slavish by definition is to say it lacks originality which simply isn't the case and is a twatty term banded around by those who don't like the toon direction.

    Personally I don't care. I want representation of the characters that remind me of the character in my head. If it ticks that box, great, if it doesn't Ill wait for the next one

    To bitch and moan companies aren't releasing things exactly how you want it is ridiculous.
     
  8. nacho

    nacho Well-Known Member

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    It's a civil discussion, so no need to accuse people of "bitching and moaning". "Slavish" is used because the toon did lack originality in that it was an extreme simplification of something far more detailed and complex. And some people think it's a bit of a weird dichotomy to have a "masterpiece" version of the oversimplified copy of the actual thing.

    It would be like building a full size replica of a hot wheels ferrari rather than just building a replica ferrari. Making a highly detailed version of a grossly simplified copy of a complex original is really bizarre in some people's minds. And that's the heart of the discussion. If you don't want to participate, so be it, but no need to admonish those who want to have an adult discussion about those opinions.
     
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  9. Rewind

    Rewind Swoosh!

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    I go figure by figure. The ubertoon look works for me on some figures but not others. Sometimes I prefer toy details, like Optimus' stripe in alt mode. MP44 looks so dull without out. Dinobots NEED gold chrome for me. If Takara did Grimlock today he'd be all grey and yellow. I like that so many options exists so I can pick and choose. I'm very, very, very happy that Takara/Hasbro isn't the only option anymore. I still buy their mainline toys but their MP stuff is just dreadful to me for the last couple years. I don't complain about it though because the whole 3rd Party industry exists to cater to people like me. :) 
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
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  10. Sepster

    Sepster Well-Known Member

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    I'm not always on board or in agreement with BSF, but his take on MP-BB 2.0, and his opinion on what has worked in the MP line and what shouldn't be in the MP line, I'm right there with him.

     
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  11. David Hingtgen

    David Hingtgen Chromaticon

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    That's an excellent analogy. Yet that is exactly what is happening with so many figures that are based on real-life alt-modes. Anytime I see a "toon-animation-error-accurate fender/spoiler/bumper" on a Lambo or Porsche etc, it's almost unfathomable to me as to why. (especially when the old G1 toy had that area right, since barring the choro-q minibots etc, most of them tried as best they could to replicate the real thing's details within the limits of the transformation/budget)
     
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  12. edgs2099

    edgs2099 Optimistically realistic. Moderator

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    My answer, some should, some should not. Serve both interests, make more paper.
     
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  13. pilot00

    pilot00 Well-Known Member

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    Hello no! If anyone wants that, they can go kiss takaras knees. We are into 3p because they dont do that.
     
  14. Lbsammills51

    Lbsammills51 Well-Known Member

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    As for the "should," part, I don't think all companies and all lines from third parties should, but as long as Takara keeps using the 'toon approach, it's in their best interests to offer products that at least lean towards and compliment what the larger fanbase is clearly still buying (though that could change if Takara sales dwindle and/or they just change their approach again because they feel like it). I really like what we're seeing out of the XTB Stunticons so far. Others may not, but I'm very happy to be getting a combiner that compliments the MPs I'm getting from Takara, while still getting stuff like FT Jetfire & Omega, XTB Beachcomber, MT Jazz & Pointblank, or the FT Headmasters that don't look out of place (to me) standing next to all of them, amongst other things (I'm likely purchasing FH Overlord when I get paid tomorrow unless it sells out everywhere between now and then).

    That said, there should also be certain companies that make real world accuracy and toy-based/detailed 'bot modes their thing as well, because there's clearly at least a niche market for it that third parties can answer in a way Takara's not quite doing right now. The variety of third parties provide for more agility than what Takara can muster. That's fine. Given the increase in prices on Takara MPs, it's not like many of us are missing out on demonstrably cheaper figures like we were when MP-20 cost me like $50 US to import direct from Japan.

    I like that both worlds exist within third parties. I'd be annoyed if every company started cranking out real world-only MPs going forward. I don't "need" extreme cartoon accuracy in 'bot mode (and even less in alt mode; my preference is 'toon-based or influenced 'bot modes crammed into realistic alt modes), but I appreciate something that leans in that direction that Takara is unlikely to do anytime soon.
     
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  15. That Guy

    That Guy Well-Known Member

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    I like that we have options to please pretty much every fan. Want toy stuff? Go Toyworld, want cartoon accuracy and really good transformations? Go Takara, want studio OX? Go MMC.

    I don't like the idea of this poll as it seems to suggest the wide variety of third party companies should all be making something similar. Instead I'd like more variety and options. Honestly I don't collect third party Masterpiece because Takara really pleases me with it's aesthetic and engineering. I would love to get other options though. I like maketoys and MMC, and Planet-X's non masterpiece offerings, that's the sort of weird stuff that excites me.

    I guess Maketoys' Cybertron starscream counts as a masterpiece though. And that's super good. So I should amend that to say I am down for Masterpiece stuff that isn't G1 from third party companies. And in that case, toon accuracty, articulation, and satisfying transformations are my priorities.
     
  16. StrangePlanet

    StrangePlanet G1

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    Should 3P make cartoon-slavish MPs?

    If there's an audience, yes. Will that make them money? Then yes.
    I think BadCube did ok with their new Lambo brothers, much more cartoon-based. A bunch of that stuff is wanted I'm sure.

    Not by me though. I love my MP-12, and did not see the more cartoony BadCube version as superior in any way. But there are gonna be other 3P efforts that are more "Hasui-based". There are lots of options in 3P which is why i love it. I still think MakeToy's Meteor and Downbeat are friggen great, although those 2 are definitely more cartoony, but I did do some mods to make them less so.

    For one, Downbeat needed those decals to make his car real-world accurate. That is a HUGE deal to me, being a big car fan, although I know there are other views. I will NEVER buy the + versions of something like MP Prowl or MP Wheeljack, because those cars are a big deal, especially the Lancia Stratos. Making their cars look like the cartoon is something I have ZERO interest in and is an awful downgrade in my mind. So one reason I want the MPs more toy based is because the G1 toys were very accurate cars.

    See this article?:
    7 Affordable Masterpiece Transformers Every Auto Nerd Must Have

    This is how people like me look at the MPs. As cars. That turn into robots.
     
  17. metalwar2010

    metalwar2010 Well-Known Member

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    Personally speaking for myself, the first couple waves of the G1 toy line was already made prior to any US media so IMO, it was recycled and didn't equate to accurate likeness of the iconic characters we still love today. I don't get the argument between mixing with toy, real world, etc when MP lines like movie and Beast Wars are heavily designed to match medias i.e. cartoon and movies. Outside of colors and accessories between toy and toon, I haven't seen anything to show real world accuracy or anything else being influenced in those lines. Correct me if you want.

    As far as what MP is, maybe it started as being a mix of designs or whatever but with any line, it changes with time and demand. Look at the size or scale of TF's. CHUG was a thing, now MP is. Legends is starting to be the new size based on 3P's even moving in that direction now. Not to mention, chrome, clear plastic, metallic paint, etc that also has changed over time.

    I'm just glad to finally see the more toon shift and there is no doubt plenty of options out there, if your not on board with it.
     
  18. CVprowl

    CVprowl Done

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    :lol 

    Sounds like the term "slavish" really bothers you, huh?

    Enough to make you create a post to "bitch and moan" about people who use it?

    :thumb 
     
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  19. CVprowl

    CVprowl Done

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    I spent enough time staring at the early 84-85 catalogues and the box art at the stores I think it may have influenced me without actually owning the toys. :lol 
     
  20. Yeled

    Yeled Grimlock is King

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    Yeah, I pretty much agree with Bobby on just about everything he said. I've always been a G1 accurate guy, but to me that doesn't exclusively mean toon accurate. It's a blend, as this thread describes, between toon and toy with other references thrown in, and maybe even "matured" for an older demographic the way Bobby describes it. I do think MP Prowl (not the + version) looks better than the sunbow character. I want the characters I imagined as a kid, updated a bit for my current sensibilities. Like Bobby I only have one + figure: Red Alert. And that's because I had skipped the original and had to decide which one I was going to get. I haven't bought any others. I do like the new Prime 3.0, though at the price it costs I doubt I'll pick it up. I think this new Bumblebee 2.0 is terrible. Not just a little bit, either. It's awful.

    So yeah, I don't always agree with BSF, but in this case I think he's spot on.
     
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