Season 3 Rodimus

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by Saberblade, Feb 4, 2020.

  1. Preach Starscream

    Preach Starscream Well-Known Member

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    I'd still say 6 out of 20 is few and far between. But this wasn't about just his appearances. This was about the entire run of season 3. Rodimus isn't constantly portrayed as down and gloomy every episode or even every other episode. And I disagree that they kept resetting the clock on him. Only 6 times out of 30 episodes did this happen.

    A lot of the fan base already had a dislike for Rodimus from his actions in the movie, long before his characterization on the show.

    And he's written nothing like Megatron. The writers also knew not to write him as Megatron. He's treated as a completely different character. That's good.

    Because that's the part that does not apply to Galvatron. Galvatron wasn't slowly changed over a period of time due to natural events. It was one physically/mentally damaging event. It's not something that can be compared to a 40 year old not being the same person as they were in their 20s. Galvatron's change was immediate.

    I'm not talking about Buffy's self-doubt. I'm talking about her depression throughout season 6. And, there actually were some episodes, "Gone" for instance, where Buffy seems to come out of her funk and looks to be her old self again, only for her to regress and go back to feeling dead inside. "Hell's Bells" is another one where Buffy seems to no longer suffer from her depression, but it still ends up coming back again. The comparison is perfectly applicable to Rodimus' journey in season 3.

    Rodimus wising up in "The Ultimate Weapon" doesn't mean he'll be completely over his self-doubt. In fact, he doesn't even say he's completely wise. Just that he's wising up. This just means he's learning to read his enemy better. Heck, that's what he does. He calls Galvatron's bluff.

    "The Burden Hardest to Bear" helped him to realize that the pressures of leading are his to take on. It doesn't mean that his doubt will go away either. It just means he knows he has to take it on himself. People can accept their responsibility and still have doubts about their performance. Happens to all good leaders.

    Neither of those episodes indicate Rodimus has gotten over all his self doubt. Just that he's growing. And that's exactly how people grow. It's actually a fantastic contrast to Galvatron. Galvatron had one event that completely changed him immediately. Rodimus goes through a series of experiences that are slowly shaping him over time. Now that's some good writing.
     
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  2. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    Again it’s 6 out of 20 not 30......You really can’t argue he wasn’t dark and gloomy in episode he didn’t even appear in it in episodes He had no significant part in

    And it was n 6 of those 20 that he was “dark and Gloomy”.....Again that’s 14 verses 6....Not exactly few and far between
    Which is completely irrelevant since just about most the of season 3 episodes featuring Rodimus were already written and were in production before the movie was released

    So the mistakes of season 3 were already set in stone before the fan base had a chance to hate the characters for the actions in the film
    Again he was written No significant difference from Megatron in the film.....And the season three writers were instructed to write him as a Mentally damaged pre-existing individual

    Which cannot really be compared to how they planned to handle Cyclonus and scourge

    Again I wasn’t speaking in specifics but in general of how people are changed by different kind of events

    That was only one example I gave and it was still comparable to the overall “type of change” in people I was speaking of.......In the end all those scenarios have one thing in common.

    Slow change, Immediate change......The one thing they both have in common is that they result from an event or a series of events in life ......it wasn’t like Scourge and Cyclonus that were brand new created Entities created by Unicrons plot magic as you implied
    Buffys self doubt and depression came hand-in-hand throughout the season 6 and both are the result of pretty much the same events
    of Course they were episodes where she was trying to forcibly take control of her life again and get back to her old self, like I said that was part of the running theme of the season

    But like I said is an extremely poor comparison to Rodimuses journey in season 3 Because of the How old the writers and each of those episodes

    The way they wrote Rodimus “wising up” was certainly intended to impart on the audience that he was no longer going to be suffering from his self doubt

    Unfortunately this is due to the fact that you got different writers writing these episodes, With no collaboration and communication between them and not that much oversight from the editorial staff when it came to making strong connections between the episodes.So what you end up with is these writers wanting to put their final touch at the end of each their stories.......Causing later conflict with other stories written by other riders covering the same kind of issues with the character

    And the same goes with each other example of the repeated theme fir Rodimus

    Season three was written in a bit more of a mature nature, But they still weren’t riding for adults, I would argue they probably weren’t really even writing for teenagers but I’ll leave that to the side

    They weren’t trying to tell a drawn out mellow drama for the character with strong connections to each episode, for that kind of thing they would’ve needed for more Collaboration between the writer so that message could’ve been delivered more appropriately

    The fact of the matter is each of these different writers were told to deliver A Story in which Rodimus was full of self doubt but overcomes it by episodes end.....and that’s it.

    They weren’t told it was going to be a “Reoccurring theme” for the character, they weren’t told to leave it open ended, so the writers ended up putting the “ Nails on the coffin“ of his self doubt at the end of each of their stories

    I do not deny that these writers wrote some fantastic stories, but from the stand point of these Individual writers, these episodes were intended to be standalone stories. Without the intention that the “self doubt theme” would be carried over to future episodes
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2020
  3. Preach Starscream

    Preach Starscream Well-Known Member

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    Actually, I can. People's argument is that he brought season 3 down because he was dark and gloomy all throughout it. He wasn't. The numbers prove that. Few and far between.

    Bingo. And the fans still had a hate for him just by what happened in the movie. Season 3 hadn't even debuted yet.

    Again, no one is saying he was completely different in the movie. He wasn't.

    But by season 3, that was a completely different character they were writing. Just as Cyclonus and Scourge were. They were radically different from who they were pre-movie.

    But irrelevant to Galvatron, as he was not changed over a period of time.

    Nope, it's an apt comparison because both arcs are used throughout the season with some episodes showing some growth yet others showing regression. Good depictions of mental struggles people go through everyday.

    That's actually a very accurate description of Buffy's 6th season. Behind the scenes featurettes, commentaries, and interviews have mentioned the writers of Buffy themselves weren't on the same page. Some writers, such as Marti Noxon, were fans of Buffy/Spike, and their episodes reflect this as the relationship is friendlier and even sweet in some scenes. Other writers were not fans of the relationship and this is reflected in their episodes with the relationship being much more toxic, violent, and abusive. So if anything, the arc is even more comparable to Rodimus as even behind the scenes dynamics were similar. Writers not being on the same page.

    That's not entirely supported by the season as there are numerous threads throughout, not just relating to Hot Rod. There's the Quintessons and their fascination with studying humans. Planting the seeds of Blitzwing betraying the Decepticons (though company mandate forced them to change it to Octane). The writers were in fact going for overarching themes throughout the season.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2020
  4. Longitudinalwave

    Longitudinalwave A Big Fan of (Sound/Shock)wave

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    Very true. As someone who has struggled with mental illness in the past (and still struggles with OCD), I know that, at least in my case, relapses were frequent.
    I really wish they hadn't shoehorned Octane into that plot.
    Yeah, I think it was most likely the movie that doomed poor Rodimus. (I actually quite like him in Season 3.) The way he was introduced almost ensured that a good portion of the fanbase would dislike him. Appearing out of nowhere to replace the most popular member of the cast is not a good way to be introduced.
     
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  5. Preach Starscream

    Preach Starscream Well-Known Member

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    Not to mention all the fans who blame Hot Rod directly for Optimus being killed by interfering in his fight against Megatron. As you say, he was doomed from the beginning. The guy who gets the greatest Autobot leader killed is the one who replaces him? Poor Rodimus had a lot on his mind. No wonder his confidence is shot throughout his time as leader.
     
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  6. Optimus141

    Optimus141 Well-Known Member

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    I think Season 3 Rodimus was well written.
    Guilt over Optimus, youth and a lack of experience in a leadership role were very apparent in his characterization, I find it a shame he wasn't given more of a chance to shine in the American cartoon.
     
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  7. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    No disrespect but how is your argument making any sense

    I never claimed he was dark and gloomy the entire season, and I really don’t see how he can still be blamed for things in episodes he wasn’t even in

    But again the episodes in which where he was filled with doubt we’re hardly few and far between considering he only appeared in a certain amount of episodes
    Exactly, But the writers still made the mistakes

    The way they carried out the plan for the character is the true cause of season 3s downfall, If they had Done a better job of executing the plan I doubt the character would’ve been disliked as much
    No but you certainly claimed Galvatrons change Occurred during the movie just like the change made to Scourge and Cyclonus.....
    .....Your words, they imply that you have a Galvatron change is the result of Unicrons reformatting just as it was the result of the others reformated

    That is the point of contention in this particular conversation, and the empirical evidence clearly shows us that the reformat is not the direct cause of his change

    Not exactly Irrelevant since I was generalizing and not being specific

    Which is why I listed a few examples that had a common connection which was that they take place throughout a persons life......
    Sorry for the typos in my previous post, but no it is not an ad comparison because there was no intended story arc for Rodimus in season 3 on the part of the writers of each of these episodes

    well I’m sure the editors might have intended for the self doubting to be a reoccurring theme, that information was never communicated to the writers of the Individual episodes of question.All they were given was a basic outline to write a single close ended episode in which where he has self doubt and overcomes it by the end....That’s it. nothing about a Continuing character arc.....And that’s exactly what the episodes depicted

    Which stands in direct contradiction to what was done with Buffy season 6....as even you pointed out...
    ...And just for the record I’ve never actually seen any of those behind the scene Featurettes it just seems very evident within the stories themselves even the conflicts you pointed out between some of the writing staff

    What was most Evident at the very least was that there was communication between them regardless of whether they agreed.....

    Which is exactly why the situation is not comparable to what was done with Rodimus......

    Because It wasn’t so much that the writers weren’t on the same page with the character,.... It was that there was no communication at what so ever between the writers

    The writers never spoke to each other, they never collaborate with each , they never compared notes with each other , and they never even saw the scripts of the previous episodes.....In other words the right hand never knew what the left hand was writing in a story
    Actually it’s supported by all three seasons, and for the few carryovers Threads we got can be Attributed to the actions of the story editors after the episodes had been written , Or in the case Blitzwing in 5FoD, All five parts of that episode were written by the same writer

    There are really good examples of that from season two episodes of “The search for Alpha Tryon” “The key to vector sigma” and “war dawn”.... In which the carryover threads were last minute adjustments

    The chief story editor was certainly in the mind of for overarching story arcs, But the nature of the show and company mandates and time constraints that plagued them throughout the entire series Prevented them from achieving those goals
     
  8. Proud Nintendo

    Proud Nintendo Well-Known Member

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    He had potential, but it's just he kept going through the same swings again and again.

    Then I remember "Fight or Flee" where he basically destroys an entire planet instead of letting the Decepticons have it.... yeah....
     
  9. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP Be strong enough to be gentle

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    Eh, Cybertron's nicer anyway.

    Then again I'd be apathetic to the world if I was fucking framed, too.
     
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  10. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    You guys can blame the movie for ruining the character or you like, but since the season three episodes in question were written before the film even premiered it really doesn’t amount to the film being the approximate cause

    The bottom line is the season 3 writers over played their hand......A good amount of the fan base was already aging out of the cartoon and moving on to other things,Much of the remaining Fanbase was not ready for such mature storytelling, and what made matters worse was that the execution of the plan wasn’t the best

    Some of the Key network markets Had decided to move season 3 airing schedule to early mornings, For example WPIX in New York City went from a after school lineup to a 7 or 8 AM timeslot......Which was about the time school bus just picked up kids

    Point is there’s plenty of blame to go around and the bulk of it really isn’t on the movie itself
     
  11. Preach Starscream

    Preach Starscream Well-Known Member

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    Makes as much sense as yours. My point was that episodes where he's dark and gloomy are few and far between throughout the season. You decided to start eliminating episodes to make it seem more prevalent. And even then, it's still not that prevalent.

    I disagree. I feel they did a pretty admirable job for an 80's children's cartoon and was far from the downfall of season 3.

    Not really. I've agreed it was the plasma bath that totally changed him up.

    Hence why it's irrelevant. This isn't a general discussion. It's pretty specific: Galvatron's change.

    Disagree. It's very apt. Rodimus was intended to struggle with being the leader. That's evident from the very first episode of season 3.

    Which is actually how Buffy is written. One writer is given an outline for his or her episode with some bullet points. Just as with Transformers, there were some writers who just came in to do only one or two episodes and weren't part of the regular rotating group. So the comparisons just get even more appropriate.

    I do have to ask what makes you say this? Have any of the writers ever confirmed this? None of the behind the scenes features on the dvds or online interviews I've seen have stated this.

    Some goals, but not all. The Quintesson's threads carry throughout the season. As do rivalries such as Skylynx and the Predacons.

    That's actually not true, as season 1 is very heavy with carrying over threads. "Roll for It" picks up right after the events of "Transport to Oblivion." "Fire in the Sky's" story is picked up in "Fire on the Mountain." The Dinobots had two episodes devoted to their creation. "Countdown to Extinction" picks up right after "The Ultimate Doom."

    And of course, in season 2, we had the thread of the Dinobots being frustrated with having to bail out the Autobots that pays off in a great two-parter.

    There were always threads throughout all the seasons.

    Absolutely. I do like that Optimus didn't come back until the very of the season. At least this way, Rodimus got carry the season through most of it.
     
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  12. Longitudinalwave

    Longitudinalwave A Big Fan of (Sound/Shock)wave

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    I don't think the movie is to blame for the quality of Season 3's writing (good or bad), nor do I think it ruined Rodimus. (I'm actually indifferent to him as a character despite thinking he's generally well-written.) I just think that it's a major reason that people dislike him (it's certainly the reason I'm indifferent to him).
     
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  13. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    I only eliminated episode that he wasn’t in or had no real part in the story which makes mathematical sense
    I don’t disagree with you on the work but Don’t you see that’s kind of thr problem?

    It was an 80s kids cartoon, the target market wasn’t ready for that kind of work yet.The older friends that might have appreciated had already moved on to the other things that come with early teen hood, You’re still younger fans weren’t ready from the complexities of that type of storytelling.

    Some of us got it and understood it but most didn’t
    That’s not what you said earlier and you know it
    It’s the complete opposite I cited many different examples of how several things can occur. Each one has its value to the topic at hand
    I don’t deny that but the reason why the comparison is not app is because that wasn’t communicated to all the writers as a planed story arc
    They were two different methods at play here, The regulars writers did have “round table” type discussions About season developments, even the actors were involved in some of those, details about other Scripps from other stories were handed out when needed so as not to make large discrepancies

    Not really the case with Transformers
    Yes I even pointed out a prime example earlier in this conversation David Wise spoke about this particular issue in particular when it came to the episode “war dawn” and the characters he wrote into that story

    As much as the writers themselves tried to create the universe and backstory for the series, that just wasn’t the mandate they were working under so it’s a testament to the work that we got as much as we did
    I see the Quint threads as easy to carry throughout since they were trying to make them major characters.....The general outline of the raiders of given would have made that clear

    And the Skylynx/Pred Rivalry really did it hold up to the end of the season, by the time of the episode “call of The Primitives” it was a free-for-all good guy vrs bad guy relationship like all the others.....The preds seemed more interested in insulting the Dinobots in that one
    Season one did more multi part episodes, but outside of the multiport episodes there wasn’t much carry over in between

    For example there’s very little carryover threads between the episodes focused on the Dinobot and let’s say “the ultimate doom”

    It’s really not the same kind of thing that was attempted in season three
    I think your overstating the simple personality traits that would’ve been expressed in the same kind of episode guidelines that were given to the writers

    “Note to writer or the Dinobot’s resent authority and helping others”.......Doesn’t really seem like such a deliberate attempt at keeping an ongoing thread

    but I’m really not going to argue that point with you since it’s certainly more of a personal point of view thing
    Well I believe reason why he didn’t come back until the end of the season was because the two part episode wasn’t originally part of the plan for season 3

    The dates on the final script revisions and production dates and the air dates just lead me to that conclusion but that’s just my opinion
    I can understand that line of thinking and I don’t think that the character was badly written

    I just feel that the type of writing they were trying to do what something the audience wasn’t ready for yet, which I find to be the fault of the issues with season 3
     
  14. Alph

    Alph Well-Known Member

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    I'm not really seeing how any of that shows that he "completely overcame all his self doubt". He learned not to doubt himself in each of those given situations, but that doesn't mean a new situation can't cause doubt to rear its head again.

    Optimus Prime became the unwaveringly confident leader he was over the course of countless years at war. Rodimus isn't going to acquire that sort of unwavering confidence just because he feels confident after a given success. Heck, even one of the lines you posted...

    I don't know if I'll ever be the leader that you were, but for sure, I'm gonna try......So long... Prime.”

    Still shows him doubting himself even in the midst of his growing confidence.
     
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  15. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    because you are looking at the story from a real world perspective with real world expectations

    I think as hardcore fans, our love for this show sometimes blind ourselves to what this show was intended to be by design.....a Glorify toys Commercial

    this was a 80s kids cartoon with simple mandates, Tell a story that’s going to make kids want to buy these toys.And yes the writers Greatly exceeded those simple guide lines but they could only go so far with the limitations of time budget and the ultimate goal of the series

    And aside from the seasons3 5 part opener (all written by the same writer), the writers of these “doubt” episodes weren’t aware that it was intended to be a running theme.....which is why they tied everything into beat little bows by episodes end having the leader learning a great lesson and being ready to move on
    again, you are looking at the story from a real world perspective with real world expectations

    do you remember the episode “war dawn”....the episode where Alpha created Optimus?

    Optimus Prime became the unwaveringly confident leader we came to know the minute he came out of Alphas repair bay

    It was the unfortunate drawback of the nature of the cartoon of the era, and a lot of other types of tv shows.The writers were often under the mandate to set up the happy ending or to make the hero looks good justified right and proper So that they could set up the status quo for the next episode is if the previous events never really impacted the characters

    It’s the curse of the closed ended episodic stories.....Ends up either resulting in poor character development or none at all

    .....And just a few episodes later he’s ready to give up “trying” completely.......Learn from those mistakes by the episodes end....yet again a few episodes later He actually does give it up completely

    Again, the curse of the closed ended episodic stories..Which is pretty much the result of the writers not being given the information from the previous episodes

    Thats drawback of this issue, inconsistent Characterization.....Think about it tell me what episode in all of season 3 would make you think that the character of Rodimus would ever consider blowing up the homes of decepticon victims as a first and only option?

    The writers didn’t communicate with each other , they thought they were telling self contained stories with the “doubting” being dealt with within their Individual stories

    Yes I know that is not a realistic expectation for real world people, but it is far from the course of a kids cartoon for a character to learn a great lesson and all the sudden be completely ready to move on
     
  16. Marvelboy1974

    Marvelboy1974 Well-Known Member

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    I love HotRod and I love Rodimus Prime!!!!
     
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  17. TheUltimateBum

    TheUltimateBum Nautica Lover

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    You'd be amazed to know that stress can have that effect on some of us.

    Also, the less said about Fight or Flee, the better (I absolutely hate that episode and always try to ignore it).

    It wasn't only doubt, it was stress and tension over carrying the responsibility. Think about smokers for a moment. Do you think they learn their lesson immediately? No, sometimes, they take time or never are able to overcome their addiction.

    It's kind of the same with Rodimus, he tries, but the pressure gets to be too much and he just isn't emotionally equipped for this kind of pressure since he still is new to the job.

    So yes, the writers may have had little to no communication, but even then, they did a masterful job at depicting what stress and insecurity can cause in a way that the previous seasons didn't do. Yes, there are a few episodes that really ruin the flow, but it still managed to bring one heck of a character in Rodimus.

    Hell, writing in the dark without knowing the direction is not exclusive to season three of G1. Even the writers of Beast Wars have admitted that they were completely in the dark when they were writing the show, and yet look at what they accomplished.
     
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  18. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    Believe me I know what stress can do on a body I am in a person’s well-being but in the long run that’s kind of irrelevant here because we’re not talking about real people

    and I do not take credit away from what they amazingly accomplished, but I refuse to deny that A Failure in communication that led to the theme of “Doubt to Resolution” being repeated in several episodes

    Had there been better communication they might’ve been able to leave the endings of some of those episodes more open ended so that it wouldn’t seem like a rehash the next time they touched on the subject

    I am aware that they had some of the same issues when writing Beast Wars, But I won’t lie and say that a retain as much knowledge as to which episodes were affected by this kind of issue.

    But I always felt the beast wars writers did a better job of writing open ended finales to their episodes.......Kind of leaving room for somebody else to build on

    PS, I got to apologize I haven’t gotten to those stories of yours yet but I plan to pretty soon
     
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  19. TheUltimateBum

    TheUltimateBum Nautica Lover

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    That's true. But then again, for an 80's show, it was quite an impressive feat, since we rarely got stuff like this back in those days in terms of animation. Sure, miscommunication can lead to a lot of disconnects (Fight or Flee feeling extremely out-of-place compared to the rest of the season and Return of Optimus Prime basically undoing all that stuff), but even then, you can still have a quality show. :) 

    And don't worry, it's cool. I'll be waiting. :D 
     
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  20. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    I feel all that was “undone” before the return of Optimus Prime but that’s my opinion lol

    and thanks for understanding