You act as if more Unicron Trilogy content is all that bad all things considered.

 

I honestly think they could retcon bayverse as an alternate multiverse of a different timeline where unicron is earth, then again ROTB brought in some bayverse elements back to OP(face,retractable swords,integrated blaster instead of a handheld one).

 

Dude, you need to back off and take a good hard look at things. They've clearly gone for more Bayverse in the film by making Optimus be more in line with the 2007 incarntion than sticking strictly to the BBM one, what with the face, the arm swords, integrated blaster, as well as the fact they're using the Bayverse symbols in the advertising!


You can see that the Autobot logo here being used is the 'angry eyes' slant which is exclusive to the Bayverse, and likewise with the Decepticon counterpart.

Look what symbol is on Mirage's hood (and in the trailer it's on his steering wheel, very reminiscent to how Bumblebee's was shown in the 2007 film).


The same symbol is on Optimus Prime's shoulders from the ROTB Trailer.


This is not the version seen on Optimus Prime's shoulders from Bumblebee - and they clearly at least paid attention to the markings since ROTB Prime has the down point arrows on his wrists, so the fact his shoulder badges are different designs that just so happen to be the Bayverse version was clearly an intentional change instead of simply copying what was on the BBM model.


Moreover, if we look at Scourge's collection of badges, not a single one of them is the 'classic' style of Autobot or Decepticon logos used in Bumblebee, they're all Bayverse style. This is especially evident with the Decepticon ones because the movie style has narrower 'four point diamond' eyes while the Classic Decepticon design has wider 'three point triangle' eyes.


ADDITONALLY, the presence of the Maximal icons yet not a single Predacon among those definitely lines up with the idea that the Maximals and Terrorcons are in fact from the same point in time and time traveled into the past.

Oh, and of course let's not forget how Lorenzo wouldn't shut up about Bumblebee still being a prequel to the 2007 film, long after Hasbro said it wasn't*, to the point he had to be publicly censured. And yet somehow he's still the executive producer after all that, while the dude who actually took pains to make BBM closer to the source material and would have been interested in a sequel is long gone, replaced by a total greenhorn director with one movie of any note under his belt and is pretty much Lorenzo's stooge because he's not going to put up the same resistance as Knight reportedly did to executive meddling. Especially since Caple's definitely being fed information than actually doing the groundwork himself, and bad information at that, as 5:47 here shows:

Obviously, he's talking about Unicron here, but like I said - he's wrong. The fans know where the Terrorcons originally come from...and it's not Unicron. The only time the Terrorcons were EVER associated with Unicron was the Prime cartoon (you know, where the whole 'Unicron is Earth' bullshit in TLK came from too) and they were just mindless zombies. The original Terrorcons from G1 were nothing more than just another Decepticon combiner team, in this case forming Abominus. What the ROTB Terrorcons are in function are just Unicronian Heralds, which is fine but Caple could at least respect the source material by NOT implying they ALWAYS were this when even the ones he's referring to weren't anything more than a generic zombie horde.

And Bumblebee has that 'Bee-yotch' air freshner from the 2007 film as well, though I can't find pictures of it at the moment.

But all in all...you have an executive producer who obviously has every intention of trying to brute-force the Bayverse back into play after BBM tried to leave it behind, a director who doesn't seem that well read into the source material of the thing he's making, obvious design choices down to the smallest detail that clearly point to them trying to harken back to the Bayverse that are all completely unnecessary beyond that purpose, and these people have been trying to make Unicron into their version of Thanos since TLK because remember - they already announced that ROTB is the beginning of a trilogy, because announcing Transformers sequels before the concept is even proven worked out so well last time. To the tune of losing $100 million dollars.

At bare minimum, the idea the Bayverse is still being involved is a non-zero chance.

*(EDIT: It just occurred to me that Hasbro didn't explicitly confirm that Bumblebee was going to be a complete severance from the Bayverse, either. Their exact words were that Bumblebee was a 'new storytelling universe'...which does not preclude the idea the Bayverse has ceased to exist as an entity. Indeed, multiversal crossovers between franchise iterations is hardly a new thing for Transformers but it absolutely shouldn't be employed here just because Lorenzo wants the Bayverse to be kept on life support)

This has nothing to do with the Unicron Trilogy.

 

Very valid points. I’ll be beyond pissed off if this movie releases and we find out it is connected directly to Bayverse. But for now, I’m sticking with the test screening leak that confirmed no Bayverse involvement.

 

Just wanted to point out that Bayverse Optimus never had an integrated blaster, iirc. The Prime version had one however.

This is what I find especially weird. The ROTB Optimus is clearly a modified version of the BB design, and they specifically put in the effort to change the classic Autobot symbol to the Bayverse one. Why? The only thing I can think of is that they're connecting ROTB to the Bay movies, like you say. Hopefully you're wrong though - because I really want these movies to start over. Let the Bayverse die.
 

 

You're right, I was probably thinking of other instances in the movies with integrated blasters I.E. Bumblebee when he stops getting shocked by electricity in the S7 base and is, understandably, very mad.

It certainly lines up with the idea that this is an alternate timeline of the Bayverse, hence why the iconography is suddenly the same (despite the existence of the BB film), and Caple saying it 'feels' like a reboot which is a very strange thing to say if it actually is a reboot straight up. It also would explain why Mirage feels like they're trying to homage G1 Jazz instead of just using G1 Jazz - because Jazz exists as a separate character in the timeline who isn't a Porche, but a Pontiac - and why they wanted Wheeljack to look way too much like robot Steve Urkel in the same way most of the AoE Autobots were designed to look more like human stereotypes than alien robots, instead of just sticking with the existing design everyone liked from BBM.

And I will gladly eat my words if ROTB isn't connected to the Bayverse whatsoever and Paramount actually is going in a new direction. A direction I think is stupid anyway since the Decepticons look like they're getting shortchanged yet again as actual characters, but better than then trying to preserve the broken Bayverse continuity.

 

You know I got a name for this new timeline, it’s called ‘Neo-Bayverse’ as long as Bay is still producing these films.

 

It’s something of a matter of semantics—

In films 1 & 2, Optimus DOES have integrated cannons, but they’re stored in his back, and make up some parts of his fuel-tanks, as well as apparently what’s UNDER them, until he draws them visibly causing his back-plating and musculature to peel away and adjust to make way for the handcannons’ extrication….

So. On some level— They ARE integrated, just not directly into his forearms. But, rather, his back, and lower shoulders.

 

Not at all my intended tone.

I was more gently poking fun at the, ah…. Tenancy in this thread to get REALLY worked up and strident about what the Bumblebeeverse is, or is not, in relation to Bayverse or anything else.

Paramount and the creators’ of the films themselves have been nebulous and contradictory about where exactly Bumblebee does or does not fit into the Bayverse as prequel, requel, reboot, or similar-but-distinct alternate universe.

And the more that comes out, the more it seems like a very disorganized situation where the people behind this stuff, themselves, aren’t quite sure whether or how the two settings merge together. Or. At the very least— Cannot agree on how things fit together.

IMO, it feels like Aligned all over again, where multiple clearly distinct and non-continuously written bodies of work are being very awkwardly and haphazardly connected in some way or another, but VERY clearly do not belong together as actual consecutive same-setting works, regardless of what “word of god” may or may not come to be as time goes on.

Though— It isn’t even half as bad…. Yet.

…..And yes, I would take 1,000,000,000 years of Unicron Trilogy content beamed directly into my brain, before I’d endure another genuine, direct Bayverse prequel or sequel.

I genuinely hope that isn’t the direction they’re taking things in….

 

We don't know why Knight hasn't come back - perhaps he changed his mind of his own accord when the offer changed from direct another film to direct three more of them. What is almost certainly not true is "Lorenzo/Paramount canned him because they don't want G1" - there is almost certainly no sinister conspiracy behind the reason Knight didn't return.

I should also point out that Knight was just as much an unknown quantity pre-Bumblebee - and "the one movie of any note" you've mentioned was a commercial and critical success (Creed II). Also, Caple has stated that he is a Beast Wars fan on numerous occasions - indeed, the presence of Beast Wars characters was, allegedly, the sole reason he signed on to direct.

We ALSO don't know whether Unicron actually has a role in the film - all sorts of films have leaks... and they're almost always wrong. (I should also point out that DOTM and AOE both had, IRRC, rumours of Unicron appearing... which did not happen in either film).

 

Thank you for clearing everything up.

 

No, just...Lorenzo's been the subject of a story that was shared all the way back in 2007 how he tried to prevent Peter Cullen from getting hired as Optimus Prime's VA by scumbag means, got foiled because Cullen is good at his job so he just did both sides of the voice test when the other guy didn't show up, and then Lorenzo threw a temper tantrum and declared Cullen couldn't voice Ironhide.

Dude was known as Scorponok behind the scenes. That's not a nickname you get if you're somebody who's good to work with.

And how many movies has Caple made in total? Oh, that's right, TWO. Creed II being one of them.

Now, given how important ROTB is to Paramount's very survival, is putting a guy who has two films under his belt period really the smartest move?

And you know who else said he was a fan of the property he was making a film of? Michael Bay. And we all know where THAT went.

Plus, Knight was far more involved in movie making than Caple. The three films he did before Bumblebee - ParaNorman, Boxtrolls, and Kubo - he was an animator and a producer. Dude knew how the industry worked and that's likely why he got his way instead of Lorenzo strongarming his influence once TLK shit the bed and they had to jettison as much connection to the bayverse as possible. Additionally, it's really odd that Knight, who right after Bumblebee's good reception at launch, was talking about how he'd be interested in doing a sequel with ideas on where to take the characters...suddenly wanted nothing to do with the idea some time later? Read between the lines, which you should always do when it comes to Hollywood - there was a bad split.

Dude, use your head.

In that one quote, Caple mentions if the fans know about the origin of the Terrorcons, then they know what's going on.

Terrorcons have appeared as entities only three times prior to ROTB.

1. G1 Decepticon combiner subgroup that forms Abominus. There's nothing really that special about these guys and they have no special origin.
2. Energon Decepticon generic subgroup that consists of two types; Battle Ravage and Divebomb. Their gimmick is processing raw Energon to create the energon stars that power up the mainstay Decepticons. That's all they do besides get blown up in mass numbers along with having no special origin.
3. Aligned continuity Dark Energon revived zombies. Who, surprise, surprise, have a specific origin: UNICRON.

Now, taking into account Paramount's been trying to make Unicron into their own Thanos since 2017, which one of the three has any kind of special origin that could even relate to what Caple is talking about, as well as having been from the same source of continuity that they seem to entirely rely upon for anything deeper than surface level lore (I.E. Unicron being Earth was specifically taken from Prime despite the fact it's a dumb as shit idea)?

Because to put it another way; if they weren't aligned with Unicron, what the hell could they possibly be doing that would preclude them just being more Decepticons?

 

I would like the original source of the story so I may read it over and over.

You exaggerate this part all the time, it's not even a joke. Like you realise there are other films that every film studio will have.

And considering your emphasis on a director who only had two films. This isn't surprising, there's a lot of directors who had smaller films before getting the big ones.

How many did Ryan Coogler (director of Creed 1) have before Black Panther then?

Anyone who does filmmaking will have to acknowledge Bay even if they don't like him.

Chill, he only did one film as a director beforehand and he's the inheritor of Phil Knight's money plus Laika is his number one priority baby as CEO which means he understandably can have interests elsewhere as much as we all like to have him back.

They're the bad guys and they bring terror. 

Plot twist: It's actually the Vok

Final word, you will chose to ignore this (it's actually bullshit I know)but realism and cynicism aren't always compatible with each other.

 

Something I wanted to point out-

Assuming the leaks are true, and Unicron features as a proper transforming planet. That would have to indicate that Bumblebee-ROTB are truly their own distinct timeline separate from the Bayverse. You can use some tortured logic to try and run mental gymnastics to justify things like the WW2 Bumblebee Scene, or why Optimus sends Bumblebee to Earth and then forgets about it for 20 years, or forgets that Bumblebee spoke before in TLK - but there's no getting around Unicron being a separate planetary body from the Earth.
Unicron has either always been the Earth, or he hasn't. This a major plot element and they can't have it both ways. I can only see a few options here;

1. Bumblebee-ROTB are a new continuity, regardless of Sector 7 or Prime's mouth or anything else.

2. The Last Knight is made non-canon so that Bayverse/ROTB can connect (Completely pointless, the damage has already been done and this will just further annoy people who wanted a proper conclusion, I don't see a retconned AOE sequel being any more likely than a TLK sequel.)

3. They insist it's the same continuity anyway despite this planet-sized issue, torpedoing any hope of a coherent timeline following BB.

4. The worst option of all, they just do whatever they want and don't give a straight answer or commit one way or the other. They continue to hedge their bets and keep making movies set in the years between 1987 and 2007 and leave out characters like Megatron, Jazz, Starscream just to maintain a pretense of connecting to the first Bay film.

 

To be honest, with the direction the movies seem to be moving in, I don’t really care if it’s a reboot or not, since it’s already way too similar to the Bayverse in the first place.

 

Exactly.

What's the point of it being a reboot if its just more of the same shit with a slightly different coat of paint?

 

Man, seeing this is making me worried about how badly the film might turn out to be. And I'm not even sure how much of a genuine Transformers fan Steven is and how much bullshit he's being spoon-fed by Lorenzo to talk about. A part of me really wants to enjoy this film but at the same time, you do make a lot of valid points. And if I recall, ROTB's plot is basically just two or more scripts mashed together into what is essentially a Frankenstein script, like TLK. Though I do at least hope there is a good amount of focus on the Transformers to showcase their personalities and such.

 

Wow such good analysis on the weekend!
I’ll just summarise the points raised specifically pointing to the bay connections
1. He has the bay face (even his eyes)
2. Bay faction symbols
3. Bay style weapons (completely losing his g1 rifle)
4. Wheeljack design just another aoe style name slap
5. Bee has his 2007 interior decoration which is especially suspect because it’s literally the same alt mode
6. Despite this we do not see bees face moving significantly towards his 2007 face (more gaunt, less round)

As for the actual plot and behind the scenes stuff
People have summarised that
1. The plot seems just a rehash of Rotf
2. It’s debatable how much a fan Capel is
3. It’s also debatable how much influence bay and Lorenzo has
4. It’s such a reversal from bumblebee in design and plot
5. And still no megatron after 2 full movies (and if you go with bay timeline we all know why!)
6. Hasbro said 3 years ago it’s a new storytelling universe.
7. Director says it “feels” like a reboot
8. Hasbro and Paramount both changed CEO last year
9. Optimus touched down in 2007 in Tf07 and touched down in 1987 in BB…but the leaked info seems the entire purpose of the autobots is to leave earth…so maybe they do and comes back again in 07?

 

i am blaminus prime. leaker of the plot...whats left of it

 

My impression was, before stuff changed, their plan was to make as many prequel movies as possible (The Last Knight is just the last in the timeline) in different eras and build from there. Then they had the idea to add a post credits scene to The Last Knight, and things spiraled after financial flop towards Bumblebee 3/4 committing to being an hard reboot. Rise of the Beasts being a combination of the script of the Beast Wars movie they always wanted to do whose idea originates as far back as Age of Extinction's development, and new writing. Which then is combined further with the Bumblebee movie sequel they were trying to do (this somewhat mirrors The Last Knight meshing different stuff together). With plans being dropped or altered or consolidated together there's no straight answer and they probably realize it's better to just not have a straight answer anyway.


Like Rise of the Beasts could be argued as a standalone entry, continuity wise, with no explicit ties to even Bumblebee. They claim it was going to be a new trilogy starting with Rise of the Beasts which compounds even further than it is already. There's a point where if they don't know we shouldn't care as much either.