Some members of the Thirteen really don't make any sense the way they're currently written while others are just really terrible characters all together so I'd like to propose a new version of the 13 that fixes some of the issues. Some of these I'm just going to say their name, those will more or less stay the same except everyone will have an alt mode. Not going to discuss the alt mode here because there's already another thread for that. 1. Prima Prime 2. Logos Prime 3. Vector Prime: I my mind Vector Prime and Alpha Trion are the same character. I just imagine that he changes his name to Alpha Trion similar to how Alchemist became Maccadam. This is largely due to an Alpha Trion figure that was literally a repaint of Vector Prime with a new head. I wanted to keep him in the number 3 spot because it works nicely with the name Trion and had Logos take Vector's old spot on the list. 4. Solus Prime 5. Micronus Prime 6. Alchemist Prime 7. Amalgamous Prime: He will no longer be known for having the only T-Cog in the group. Instead he's going to be known as the first Transformer to take multiple different alternate modes. Characters like Blitzwing, Octane, Astrotrain, and Sixshot will worship this guy because he's the first of their kind. 8. Onyx Prime 9. Nexus Prime: For clarity sake because it's really confusing how a combiner can be a member of the 13 without screwing up the numbering system I'm going to clearly define that only the combined form is a Prime. The individual bots who form Nexus are not Primes and that's why they aren't included in the count. I also switched the order of Amalgamous and Nexus so that we could avoid debates about how Nexus technically has more than two modes because he's a combiner. This way Amagamous can be the first to have more than two modes without the risk of being seen as a contradiction to Nexus. 10. Epistemus Prime (Taking the place of Quintus because I hate him.) 11. Solomus: I'm removing Liege Maximo for three reasons. A. The name doesn't really work as a Prime. B. Megatronus is suppose to be the first Decepticon which makes zero sense when Liege Maximo comes before him on the list making it appear like Liege should be the first Decepticon not Megatronus. C. It also makes no sense why Megatronus is the first Decepticon if he never actually did anything evil and was only being manipulated by Liege Maximo so I'm getting rid of that whole part of the story and making Megatronus more of a villain in the process. 12. Megatronus Prime/The Fallen: More similar to War Within in design with a backstory more like the RotF movie cause that guy was a straight up villain. 13. Autonomous Prime: Because I don't think anyone likes the idea that Optimus is one of the original 13.
Honestly the AVP posts should've never mingled the 13 with the Guiding Hand nor should the Covenant book have crapped out the names it did. Simon Furman created a plurality of the Primes and Hasbro, Takara and even FunPub should've worked within a framework of his instead of allowing competing lists to pollute the canon. I hate seeing Alpha Trion being treated like only Aligned first introduced him as one of the 13 when not only is he a first generation product of Vector Sigma in US and JP cartoon canon from the 90's but clearly intended to be an original in the Dreamwave continuity Furman worked on and even named along other Primes in the FunPub bio for Nexus. Shitting Orion Pax/Optimus into the 13 made no sense even for Aligned. The idea now cascading through TF is that the 13th Prime is a living Matrix or reincarnating Optimus... but even in the Covenant AND FunPub comics the Matrix is the hilt of Prima's Star Saber. The current roster of the 13 has given us Primes with little to distinguish them apart and too many overlapping qualities. Should've let Furman flesh out the pantheon... Prima, the Liege Maximo, Maccadam, the Last Autobot, The Fallen were all creations of Furman. Hasbro/Sunbow creation Alpha Trion was clearly set up to be canonized in Furman's roster by Dreamwave. Hasbro, Takara and FunPub introduced Vector Prime, Logos and Nexus respectively bringing the total original Transformers to 9... And then what do we get? The girl prime, the minicon prime, the animal prime, the Quintesson prime, the van gogh painting prime and the Jesus Optimus meme prime.
I kept hitting the like button, but it would only go up 1. I fear it's defective. Why does anyone even entertain the thought of salvaging anything from Aligned? Literally the only good things to come out of Aligned were Strongarm, Knock Out, and Quickshadow.
I don’t really mind the aligned thirteen, or most of the aligned stuff in general, though it would have been nice to keep the FunPub (or 3h? I don’t remember) guys for it. I just wish they actually made a fucking attempt to at least make it seem like they gave any resemblance of a shit in trying to make the different parts of aligned seem like they were in the same continuity. And even RiD2015, which was obviously made to be a sequel to Prime from the beginning, just decided to have a shit ton of visual and logical inconsistencies with Prime, or straight up not acknowledge it at all. As for the FunPub or 3h or whatever-it-was-stories, I wish they made the seemingly infinite number of convention-exclusive stories were actually made available publicly, as I feel it would be better to read them instead of looking at the Wiki page whenever I’m feeling curious about the TransTech or whatever.
Some scattered thoughts: I've never liked the idea of 'Logos Prime' because he always came off like someone's fanfic character desperately trying to become a canon character. Liege Maximo seems like a random character to throw in there if you don't consider the thought that putting him up was like writing a thank-you note to Simon Furman. That he was so ill-defined that he was made into Transformers Loki over time just speaks to just how little of a character he was in the first place; his name itself is really the most important thing about him. Alpha Trion always felt like he was put up there just because. He's already a legendary Autobot Hero in G1 and the 'father' of the greatest Autobot Hero, but making him one of the 'original legendary heroes' (and Optimus for that matter) felt like it took away from their original legendary feats-- that they did the Great Thing(s) because they were Legendary Heoes, not the way around. Quintus Prime doesn't even need to exist. He's just kind of there... like what reason is there to try to tie a tangential force like the Quintessons to the legendary heroes? In any case, I also see it as a fault of the 13 in general that Hasbro (well, everyone, for that matter; this isn't just an Aligned 13 issue) kind of designed the pantheon to be heavily Autobot-leaning, as if the Decepticons were the aberrations even though two of them could claim to be 'the first Decepticon': Megatronus and Liege Maximo. I suppose in a meta sense you could throw Onyx and Quintus into the mix (IDW Onyx being a Big Bad and Quintus because of the Quintessons), and if you're being generous, Solus (because she made the original weapons of doom like the Requiem Blaster, although I can already hear cries of misogyny even though it's bad enough that there's only one female legendary hero). You'd think a being concerned with 'balance' would have 'balanced' things out a little more than saying "well, here's Prima, and here's Megatronus, let's call it the day!"
I think it's just fine where it is. But Optimus should not be a original prime. Use the thirteenth from POTP
My plan for reworking the Thirteen...well, let's just say the fact that there'd be 13 of them would be the ONLY thing it has in common with any previous depiction of them.
Sorry for coming back to an old thread, but I’ve got some miscellaneous questions for those who hate the aligned Thirteen. After looking at the wiki article for the Thirteen, it seems that by the time of Hasbro coming in and making their own roster, Furman only had created a few characters, then afterwards the “multiversal” Thirteen just had a bunch of random remaining characters shoved in there, so I don’t really understand what the issue is. Plus, Logos Prime was just a character who appeared in a Japanese story that barely anyone has read, so why does anyone care about him? As with Liege Maximo, I do think he is kinda bland considering he seems to be nothing more than just Transformer Loki. Plus, the role of “Decepticon predecessor” seems to not be able to decide wether it should belong to ol’ Maxxy Boy or the Fallen. While the Dreamwave Fallen is cool as shit, I don’t see why he was created way back then if the Liege was around from G2? Finally, I have to say I disagree with OP when they put some Guiding Hand members in as primes, but mainly just cause from what I know of them, I don’t really like the Hand. This is mainly because I dislike IDW’s version of the Primus concept in general, but I can’t be too sure as I haven’t actually read that far in IDW (I’m trying to read IDW via the IDW collection hardcovers, currently on All Hail Megatron and loving it). As a matter of fact, I haven’t read the Dreamwave or G2 comics yet either, hence why I am more or less asking for insight into the opinions of the anti-aligned Thirteen people out there.
To be fair, Dreamwave Fallen wasn't created to be the "First Decepticon", but a herald of Unicron. Revenge of the Fallen and media related to it introduced the idea of him as the original Decepticon, which other continuities have ran with ever since (and in the process, diminishing Liege Maximo to a generic Loki expy - G2 Maximo was more akin to, say, Darkseid, as an embodiment of evil). It also made The Fallen more generic, too, because Dreamwave left it a mystery who exactly he was or how he came to be Unicron's herald, but most new media ignores his connections to Unicron.
"The Fallen" was already a dumb name, but the revelation that his real name was "Megatronus" was even dumber. Who's next, Prowlus? Jazzus? Grimlockus?
my headcanon for the 13 is: Prima Vector prime Alpha prime (later alpha trion) Solus prime Micronus prime Alchemist Prime (later maccadam) Nexus prime Onyx prime Amalgamous Prime (has the logos prime body design) Quintus Prime (later the alpha quintesson) Logos prime (later liege maximo) Megatronus prime (later the fallen) Autonomous Prime (later the first autoboot & the arisen)
I like this one. It kinda uses both plus it makes Logos Prime seem less useless. I gotta ask, though, with the idea of the first Autobot being, you know, the first Autobot, it makes me wonder what his point is with both him and Prima both seeming to have that designation. The Matrix is associated with Prima but it’s also the thing that Autobot primes traditionally have stuffed in their chest hole. It seems like a similar dilemma to the one with Megatronus and Liege Maximo. Heh, yeah! Or something stupid like... “Rodimus!”
My dumb headcanon idea for the 'pantheon' goes as such: There's the Guiding Hand, lead and created by Primus, and the Pentacore, created / lead by Unicron. They're sort of like the greek 'gods' of the TF mythos. Though they certainly aren't the only mythical figures in their various belief systems. They aren't all Prime's, just the first 13 to be built. "Prime" among them was a choice, it would become a bestowed title / rank later on. Prima was the first, and the original bearer of the Matrix. Very closely modeled after Primus himself, kingly and benevolent ruler to his people. Xal Maximus was the second and first built with a focus on combat, and would inevitably become corrupted and vile, later on becoming the Liege Maximo. The father of all Decepticons. Views himself as superior to both Primus and Unicron and wishes to ascend to a higher plane of existence. Vector Prime, follower of a mysterious entity known as the Chronarchitect. Appointed 'guardian of time', close friends with Logos Prime. Alpha Trion, appointed to be the chronicler and keeper of the covenant. In the modern age lives as a reclusive and mysterious sage that often has a habit of appearing to those in desperate need of council. Solus Prime, the maker. Many notable artifacts and monuments on Cybertron can be traced back to her. Nexus Maximus, the first combiner. In the modern day his parts have been split and spread across the vast universe, they could be anyone. Logos Prime, appointed 'guardian of space'. Also follows the Chronarchitect. Onyx Prime, appointed 'lord of beasts.' Very in-tune with nature and the natural world. Modus Prime, the first Mini-Con. Alchemist Prime, later changes his name to Maccadam and remains close friends with Alpha Trion. Amalgamous Prime, can seemingly change into anything. A trickster. Metatron, the appointed overseer of entropy. Delves too deeply into his dark sciences and becomes obsessed with the end of all things. The first herald of Unicron. His original name had been purposefully scrubbed due to it being considered bad luck, mostly referred to as "The Fallen". Is the more 'famous' traitor of the original thirteen. Despite the attempt to scrub him from history, a monstrous tyrant would claim a remarkably similar name to his. Lastly, Autonomous Maximus A.K.A. The Last Autobot. Built as a final line of defense. A mighty colossus. A bit rough but I think this was basically what I had in mind, could be fleshed out more.
I’m not opposed to the idea of an original 13 TFs, but not big on any version I’ve seen so far. My preferred TF origin story is still the Quintessons, so my 13 would refer to the first 13 that gained sentience. They’d be the only ones out of millions & millions of lifeless factory-built drones. Their names would be generic model numbers like Beta & A3 from “Forever is a Long Time Coming.” The more flourished names wouldn’t come until much later. “Prime” as a name or rank wouldn’t exist. Any notion that my 13 are chosen ones, mythical, magical or ordained in any way would come from the populace building up their legacy over thousands & millions of years. Of course, in my preferred take on the TFs, Unicron is just an incredible feat of engineering whose powers only make him seem godlike. He was built like all TFs. And Primus only exists as a super computer.
Technically at that time they were never referred to as the 13 Primes. They were just called the Original 13 Transformers which meant Alpha Trion could be included without requiring him to be a Prime. It's only in aligned that the 13 were said to ALL be Primes and thus Alpha Trion became Alpha Trion Prime all of the sudden. The 13th being a living Matrix is more so an idea introduced in Power of the Primes when the 13th Prime Master was literally just the Matrix core. They also claimed that anyone holding the Matrix at any given time could be referred to at the 13th Prime so Optimus Prime, Rodimus Prime, and Optimal Optimus would all count since they've each held the Matrix at some point in the Prime Wars continuity. I think the only ones with over lapping qualities are Prima and the 13th since they're both associated with the Matrix and leadership roles. Liege Maximo and the Fallen since they're both Decepticons. And Amalgamous being the first one with a T-Cog overlaps with everyone since we know that's not actually true... unless he's really suppose to be the first one with multiple alt mode transformations not just 2 modes which would make a lot more sense. I don't get that one. Who are you talking about?
Oops, I just realized that the Autobot guy's name is the Last Autobot, not the First Autobot. Although that doesn't make any sense in any context that I can think of, since he's one of the oldest transformers.
