Meh after thinking about it I'm just gonna wait for the last trade to come out and hold off on collecting the classics trades for now. I've grown a little bored and confused of Regen One and want to focus more on the newer stuff.

 

I am anticipating a huge Bludgeon/Rodimus slugfest. Also, Galvatron looks vanquished! Wow! Go Ultra Magnus!! We will see what Jhiaxus ends up trying to convince Rodimus of.

 

Ok so I hope no one minds me bringing this thread back up lol.
I came back to this because of Rhythms of Darkness. My thinking here is that RG1’s Hot Rod did distract ROD’s Rodimus Prime. So, the dead Rodimus that we see in issue 67 is the result of that. I like that.
I also agree after reading this thread that the Rodimus in ROD was not the chosen one. This battle on Junkion shows him with the Matrix on a chain instead of Ultra Magness having it in his chest. This means Optimus passed the matrix to Hot Rod, and instead of UM saving Kup, Blurr, Arcee etc by burying them in junk before Galvatron kills him, Rodimus did not make that choice and therefore they were all killed. I didn’t really catch this before and that is fascinating.
Going back to the gene key arc, I also didn’t catch the fact that the gene key didn’t effect Punch. I really just thought the appearance of Punch was just a random appearance. Now I’m intrigued by this. Can anyone expand on exactly what it meant that it didn’t effect him?
Sorry for my not catching things (don’t flame me) and thanks for any input.
Also, I would love a 6 issue mini series of ROD. With Furman and Guido.

 

Well, it is an old thread, but you raise a fascinating point despite that.

You know, if you're right about the Rodimus from whom Hot Rod snagged the Matrix being from the Rhythms-verse, that actually makes a great deal of sense. Rhythms-verse bears a certain similarity to the Aspects of Evil-verse- the post-Time Wars but pre-Primal Scream timeline- in that Unicron attacks in the 21st century, and Galvatron's a clever git from a timeline where Time Wars happened, so instead of mucking about in history, he thinks "No, I won't time jump back to the 1980s... because however much it might seem like fun... I'll end up getting my head blown half off by the Wreckers, and then being stripped and eaten by a time storm. Let us not go to 1987, it was a silly place." (Note, in "A Savage Circle"; US#78, he specifically notes that one of his problems at this point, in 1991, is that he's been forced back down "a path already trod.")

So- perhaps this is how things fall apart?

As a result of the Time Wars, Optimus now knows that Hot Rod is 'special', and Megatron II and Ravage know that Megatron will become Galvatron (III), have enormous opportunities, but **** them up and die horribly if he time travels. In the immediate post-Time Wars version of the timeline; the one that Rodimus and friends find themselves in when they return to 2009, this means that Megatron (or Megatron II) returned to Earth as planned in "Fall and Rise of the Decepticon Empire", and as chronicled in UK Annual: "Trigger Happy", in "Aspects of Evil" (various parts), and took part in, and won, the Decepticon Civil War. Unicron doesn't show up till 2005, because he doesn't have an agent to weaken the Transformers, but, unfortunately, when he does, he's planned.

Meanwhile, after the battle of Autobot City, Optimus knows what he must do, appoints Hot Rod as his successor. Unfortunately, without the learning curve of the Movie's events, this Rodimus Prime isn't a very good leader, especially as his Matrix is still infected with Unicron's essence (absorbed in a previous timeline- "Legacy of Unicron"), but, after 2009, these two timelines have merged. Thus, the remaining events of "Aspects of Evil" happen. At some point, undisclosed, but probably as a result of Unicron's third coming in 2010 (Galvatron III is seen looking rather badly hurt at one point), Galvatron III still does timejump, and tries to set up an army of his own in the past ("Perchance to Dream"). This leads to Earthforce, in 1990, and screws up the Decepticon Civil War, and far worse, means that by the end of the Matrix Quest (if we accept "Transform and Roll Out"'s excellent account of Earthforce's timeline as canon), Unicron has had opportunity to notice that there's an available Galvatron in the future to use as an agent.

The changes which lead to Earthforce happening also mean that it's Grimlock, Jazz, and Bumblebee on VsQs- were it not for "Perchance to Dream" and Galvatron III's waking of the Classic Heroes, those three would probably have been busy somewhere else, and the events would have played out differently. Thus, Dark Matrix creature.

These two changes to the timeline are catastrophic. The existence of the Dark Matrix creature changes time as you've described- Hot Rod gets sent through the crack to Galvatron III's future, where he's purposefully given a corrupted Matrix- since it's got the Legacy of Unicron corruption still within it from when it was Galvatron I's timeline- and accidentally changes history to create the Rhythms-verse- from which timeline in turn, Unicron plucks Galvatron II. Unicron now has an agent, so he can rush on ahead to Cybertron, arrive in 1991... and the stage for Regeneration One, the Dark Matrix creature's final plan, is set.

Of course, this still leaves one rather interesting loose end.

In "The Last Autobot", Galvatron blasts his way out of the Ark after a crash, his memory and mind in pieces, fights Fortress Maximus, gets dumped in a pond for twenty years, before finally becoming the Dark Matrix's pawn and getting beaten up by Magnus.

Which Galvatron is this? There were two of him on the Ark at this point. Galvatron II was brawling with Megatron and Shockwave in the corridor. Galvatron III was stuck in a life pod suffering induced nightmares, and presumably having been pumped full of Nucleon as well. His memories of his duel with Shockwave are fairly loose- it's entirely possible that this was Galvatron III, rather than II.

 

Galvatron III?

Galvatron II isn’t even the second Galvatron in either the Marvel UK or US comics. There were other alternate Galvatrons in the comic before Rhythms of Darkness Galvatron.

Sure they all shared the same origin but then they go on to do different things to each other. There were two different Galvatrons in Time Wars, the other Galvatron being the one that the first Galvatron teamed up with back when he was Megatron, who then teamed up with a Straxus clone of Megatron instead of his actual past self.

And no despite what the tfwiki says, there is no continuity possible that the Straxus clone can go on to become Galvatron. The clone kills himself and no other version was seen.

 

The black and white story two megatrons killed one of the megatrons after the continuity mess in marvel

There were at least 4 galvatrons in marvel uk us. Time wars galvatron aspects of evil galvatron perchance to dream galvatron and galvatron who appeared towards the end of marvel us.....i think

 

I was under the impression it went Target 2006-Time Wars: Galvatron I, Rhythms of Darkness: II, Aspects of Evil: III, Perchance to Dream: IV

The letters pages do clarify that IV was actually also III, but since all the timejump tech was destroyed in the Aspects-verse then by my reason IV must have come from an alternate version of Rhythms of Darkness (the issue not the timeline), one where Unicron pulled a Galvatron from the post-Time Wars timeline instead. He even seems to kinda recognize the term Time Wars, as III would've likely heard the story from Soundwave.

Not to say that that's the sole divergence point for Earthforce, although it could be, Trigger Happy quite clearly features a Straxus-Megatron (as Megatron I didn't Know of Galvatron until A Savage Circle) that had both survived Mind Games and survived revealing that he survived Time Wars in The Resurrection Gambit. Unless Trigger Happy isn't in Earthforce canon idk.

 

Ah, I was just using the "II", "III" designations used by the wiki, for simplicity's sake. Personally, I would argue that the "Target: 2006" and "Fallen Angel" Galvatrons aren't technically exactly the same- the Fallen Angel one hails from a future where his time jump in Target : 2006 is already canon history, for instance- thus, for him, the events of "Prey" etc are part of his history, whereas they probably weren't part of the history of the bloke from "Target : 2006".

Of course, it all depends on how time travel actually works in this multiverse. What appears to be the case is that a sort of 'last man standing' approach prevails- that whilst there's someone from the present *in* the past, held there by the mass substitution process, then, history doesn't alter, rather, the past exists as a form of foreign country, or parallel reality - hence, during "Wanted, Galvatron..." the Autobots of 2007 are plainly unaware of Galvatron's fairly massive impact on history, even though they're looking for him- at that point, his first trip, during Target, is recorded fact in their history, but his second isn't, because he's still there. It's only after Time Wars, when there's nobody still in the past, that it catches up with them- hence, the Autobots returning to 2009 find themselves in a 2009 altered.

Of course, this runs counter to what Galvatron assumes at the end of Target : 2006- namely, that his having killed Starscream means that he's now only occupying a parallel universe; that it's impossible to alter history because you simply create new alternate timelines. How to reconcile this with the undeniable fact that Galvatron travelled back with the explicit intention of changing history?

The answer, I think, is actually a lot easier than it's usually taken to be- in that the whole point is that Galvatron is being deceived.

Consider- time travel is a matter of theory- entirely, for us, and whilst in the far flung future of 2006 (... from when the story was set, I mean   ), it may have become possible, it's still a very new technology. Suppose two theories of time travel. One posits that changing history simply creates alternate parallels, but the traveller's timeline of origin remains the same- they always return to a time unaffected by their machinations, making time travel purposeless other than for the sake of research or tourism, but also safe. One posits a loop theory of time, wherein altering the past effectively overwrites the present.

Note that this does not imply "Time Paradox = Destroy Universe". Chaos theory and quantum mechanics prevent that from being the case, because different iterations of the loop will not be precisely identical.

Note that after Target : 2006, Galvatron doesn't ever really attempt to alter 2006 again; he does plenty of things in 1987 and 1988, but they're all aimed at seizing power for himself "Since my future is such a lamentable mess, I'd best make something of my present" in his new situation. It seems as if Target : 2006 has demonstrated to him that his goal is impossible; that he can't just create a new 2006 which went better for him.

So, what actually happens?

I think the vital clue here is that Kup, Hot Rod, and Blurr take extra unnecessary pains to not destroy Starscream. If Galvatron were right in his assessment at the end of the story; that he had simply strayed into a parallel universe, then they might as well have had him kill the real Starscream; it wouldn't have affected any of their timelines, and it's unlikely they were sentimentally attached to the old weasel. In fact, they deceive him- they purposefully arrange a situation which provides him with evidence for an inaccurate theory of time travel, one which renders his mission pointless.

So, if time can be rewritten, then what happens when someone- such as Galvatron- creates an irresolvable paradox, such as killing Starscream in 1986, as he's led to believe he has?

Well, the immediate answer is that Starscream dies in 1986. The future plays out very differently, and in 2006, Megatron not only is not transformed into Galvatron in space, but, in consequence, has no reason to return to Earth in 1986, so he doesn't kill Starscream.... at first glance, the loop appears endless- but in practice (I believe Larry Niven discussed this in a short story at one point), this is not the case. Random variation accumulates. By, perhaps, a few hundred iterations of this loop, Galvatron kills Starscream by crushing him beneath a broken piece of the ruined Weapon of Tomorrow, rather than by cannon-blasting him... or he transforms and blasts him in cannon mode rather than in robot mode... or assorted near infinite variations- but, crucially, eventually this variation will lead to a variant where Galvatron does not kill Starscream. He misses. Or his cannon was damaged by the explosion of the Weapon, and doesn't fire. The details are irrelevant, what matters is that this is the first stable iteration, and the loop ends at this point.

To anyone not outside time itself observing, this loop is probably imperceptible- it's a loop in time, after all, and as such, if the loop theory is correct, this type of paradox simply can't happen- from the perspective of the observer- because it always corrects itself automatically. There can be near misses, but, if you travel back in time to assassinate Napoleon in the eighteenth century, the bullet will always just miss. As Galvatron muses as soon as his blind fury ebbs "This cannot have happened."

He doesn't seem to be frightened, here. He's not dreading a Back to the Future-style erasure from the timeline. Rather, he's realising in shock that the fact that it has apparently happened means that the theory of time travel he was working on, basing his whole plan around- namely, that you can change history- is apparently utterly wrong. "Things.... are not what they seem at all!"

All he's done is end up in a parallel dimension where Starscream died in 1986- not relevant to his own reality any more.

The three future Autobots- and, by extension, Unicron, have conned him with false evidence. By extension, that they needed to con him, in order to make him believe that history could not be rewritten, implies that it can be rewritten.

So, what of Galvatron's visions through the eyes of Megatron II during Time Wars? How can he possibly be seeing not only events from the life of a Megatron who isn't Megatron, but also events starring a Galvatron who shouldn't have been there during that history? Indeed, if we take what he claims in these visions at face value, how can they be happening at all?

Galvatron's assertions during Time Wars seem to be implying that he's now remembering a timeline where, in 1988/9, there was a Galvatron present from the future, who killed everybody- Optimus Prime included. This would make it rather unlikely that he (Megatron, I or II) went on to fight the battle of Autobot City, and into the Movie Future from which he is generally supposed to have come.

It is of course entirely possible that there was a time travelling Galvatron present from some other previous version of the future, present in the history of the 'Movie' Timeline- we shouldn't automatically assume that that is the first iteration of the loop- but the events he purports to remember seem impossible to reconcile.

Perhaps the only feasible explanation can be had by returning to the point I proposed early in the post- that time 'doesn't change' whilst there's still someone from the present anchored in the past. Not only have Cyclonus and Scourge royally screwed that up by this point by travelling back without such an anchor, but also, Galvatron has by this time done something unique and undefined- in that, as of the end of "Wanted...", he's made himself incapable of being forcibly returned to 2007. We don't know what happened when Wreck-Gar attempted to recall them- but unless Goldbug has remarkably poor powers of observation for one normally renowned for their perspicacity, it appears that initially, Galvatron did leave with the others, only to rematerialise again. Thus, for a moment, he would have been flung into the time vortex whilst time was in flux, before being thrust back into 1987 again. In that transitional state, he may have experienced all sorts of memories of possible realities- possible histories into which destiny could have snapped, depending on the outcome of his journey- and later, brain damaged by Roadbuster, perhaps his fleeting visions of possible futures - after all, by the time of "Wanted...", the bad future he imagines in "Time Wars" is already quite a likely outcome- come to the fore in what's left of his mind, and overwhelm his own confused memories.

 

Is Earthforce necessarily divergent at all, though? There are some good arguments for placing it during Matrix Quest.

Suppose this- ignore Mind Games/Two Megatrons for the moment; I'll come back to it.

Fall and Rise of the Decepticon Empire - Megatron II gets back to Cybertron, finds that High Command have left the Decepticons to grow indolent, decadent, and useless, under various triumvirates, governors, and other Lords and losers. He takes control of Helex and determines that he (believing himself to be Megatron) isn't going to stand for it- he has a destiny as Galvatron- unfortunately, as things stand, that destiny includes running into the past and being eaten by the weather. Thus "This time I'm going to do it right." He specifically notes that he's going to travel back to Earth along with some troops, as the first stage of doing this.

This ties right in with Trigger Happy, where he's done so, and is accompanied by the same Triggercons who he met in the former story, so I definitely agree this is the bridging point between Fall and Rise and Earthforce.

So... suppose that Megatron II, as planned, leaves Cybertron, never learning that the same High Command who has left the Decepticons to rot while focusing on his own schemes is, in fact, Megatron I.

Megatron I, some time later, arrives in Helex, having learned of Megatron II and royally pissed off about it. He finds there, one confused, bewildered, nightmare ridden and deranged Megatron-doppelgänger. When Megatron I confronts this clone with the truth of his origins, the clone remembers and kills himself. Ravage is left thinking "WTF?"

Meanwhile... Megatron II arrives on Earth soon after the Underbase saga, along with enough modern Cybertronian medical equipment to collect and fix quite a few of the wounded Underbase casualties. At the same time, Shockwave, having been quite glad to lose his annoying management stooge Ratbat during the same saga, is doing the same, collecting up his damaged troops before Scorponok can get them. Megatron II at this point keeps a fairly low profile- he's vowed to do things right, after all, and this newfound rationality doesn't befit picking a fight with the restored Optimus Prime before he's ready.

Nobody knows about Megatron II's involvement, but, enough rumours circulate about the Decepticons having access to modern Cybertronian repair tech to get their warriors back online faster to successfully leave Ratchet deeply pissed off that he hasn't got any of it.

At around this time, the events of Back from the Dead - Skin Deep occur; Optimus Prime at this point had assumed Megatron to have perished in the time rift during the Galvatron war, back before the Underbase saga. Ratchet, meanwhile, up to his neck in work after Time Wars and the Underbase catastrophe, is likely to not really been listening terribly hard, if Prime or someone else had said to him "Oh, by the way, Megatron, who we all thought was dead after blowing up the Space Bridge, but then showed up in London and got blown up again, did actually show up again, but then he got eaten by a rift in the fabric of time and space, so he still is dead, just that he wasn't before"; he probably just thought "Yeah, whatever, I'm busy", hence it's understandable that when Megatron I does confront him, Ratchet cites the wrong, but most high-profile 'death', rather than the most recent one.

After the end of Skin Deep, Optimus is dismayed, as chronicled in Yesterday's Heroes - even more so when Megatron II crosses swords with him on Earth- Trigger Happy. From the perspective of Megatron II, he's heard rumours that some arrogant upstart on Cybertron had been daring to try to pass himself off as Megatron. Granted, they died, which is good, but it's clear that he has to reclaim his public image, to prevent anyone else trying to steal it for him. Thus, he, and his troops, begin to operate more overtly. This prompts Shockwave to do the same.

From Optimus' perspective, it appears that Ratchet gave his life for nothing, since Megatron clearly escaped the explosion, as he's now turned up on Earth. It's probably not helped by Aunty, for some reason Prime can't understand, deep in her programming, still insisting that Megatron was dealt with by the explosion.

So, Yesterday's Heroes and Primal Scream take place. At this time, Starscream is still either a prisoner in Scorponok's New Jersey base, or at least held off active duty, thinking himself a laughing stock (in fact everyone's terrified of him- including Soundwave, clearly placed among Scorponok's troops at this point), Fallen Star whilst Scorponok decides what to do about him.

Scorponok has a problem- he's very conscious that he's actually just a Nebulan, Lord Zarak, and fears that if he moves openly against titans of Decepticon history like Megatron and Shockwave, he'll lose troops to them left, right, and centre. Unrest over his decision not to kill Starscream has only added to this- but Scorponok is crafty, and as such, he has a plan. Rather than confront the other two leaders directly, he keeps a low profile with his troops, working on their base and on their technologies, and sending Soundwave and Starscream to infiltrate Megatron and Shockwave's factions respectively, to destabilise them and hopefully bring them back into the fold. Note, in All this and Civil War 2, Scorponok evinces no surprise, at it being Shockwave leading the coup attempt against him, he appears to have already considered why he is the better leader, and have considered Shockwave's flaws in detail.

At the same time, the Autobots are busy off planet with the Matrix Quest's early stages, and Galvatron III, having (I maintain, anyway) travelled back from the future foretold in Aspects of Evil : 5, or similar, sets about his own plan to assure himself a better future- recruiting a mind controlled Autobot army. This fails, but inadvertently provides that necessary mental 'push' to get five Autobots past that 'dream state' point of stasis lock earlier chronicled in Victory.

Wheeljack, deranged genius that he is, manages to combine this breakthrough with reverse engineered technology from the Classic Pretender Shells in order to set up the ACU to bring several more Autobots back online- the rest of the Aerialbots, and the Dinobots, in particular. The revived Grimlock is eager to clear his reputation after his last stint as leader on Earth, and this, combined with friction of a Prime far more concerned with Unicron, leads to the formation of Earthforce.

The Earthforce saga occurs whilst the Matrix Quest is proceeding.

Soundwave and Starscream manage to rather exceed Scorponok's expectations- performing a coup and uniting both rebel Decepticon factions. Whether they're now working for Scorponok, or in opposition to him, is never explored; the former is more likely, given that they never mention him as a foe. The Earthforce meet up with the Survivors, Megatron and Shockwave team up with the Mayhems- and, presumably, a wounded Spinister and Needlenose get the hell off Earth as fast as they can, leaving Bludgeon to his vendetta... only to be reminded of their main assignment and Thunderwing's own vendetta.

At some point prior to Dark Creation though, it all goes to pot. Possibly in consequence of the Decepticons' Project Smear, Earthforce goes on the offensive, having already captured most of the Stunticons, they manage to take out most of Soundwave and Starscream's troops, the survivors of which, including the two leaders, return to Scorponok; but Starscream's 'off the books' absence has already managed to push Triggerhappy and Mindwipe too far. Shockwave goes undercover, and is assumed dead by Starscream, at least.

Now, this last is pure conjecture, however, we know that somebody- presumably the Autobots, given that Megatron II blasts his way in, had developed the Flashback doorway as a form of experimental time travel. It's probably another Wheeljack gig.

After Earthforce have defeated the 'classic' Decepticons, Megatron II suffers some sort of breakdown. He may simply have been operating too long, and the various personalities in his subconscious begun to bubble through. He attacks Earthforce headquarters, going all out and deactivating almost all of them, with Grimlock, Jazz, and Bumblebee surviving due to their Pretender Shells, perhaps. During this assault, Megatron II lets slip that he is not the real Megatron at all, just a clone- before he escapes, making a second trip back through an upgraded version of the Flashback doorway, one which now transfers him physically into the past, rather than simply through mental possession. He goes to the one place where he believes he can overcome and finally defeat Straxus.

Grimlock and co are debriefed by Optimus Prime. They discuss the report on Hydrus IV, the nucleon which Grimlock argues could restore the troops under his command- foremost the Dinobots- who died fighting Megatron II, but Prime vetoes this, and instead sends the Classic Pretenders out to the moon which the Matrix Quest has finally identified as the likely location of his original body- VsQs. (There's a certain logic to this; if Grimlock and co had retrieved an intact and pure Matrix, then that could have revived the casualties more safely, as well as stopping Unicron- fulfilling Grimlock's goals and Prime's - note that Grimlock is already bitching about getting the Dinobots back, during Dark Creation.)

Meanwhile, Optimus Prime, having learned from Grimlock that, in fact, the Megatron who Earthforce were dealing with on Earth wasn't Megatron, begins to think "Wait a minute, does that not mean that maybe Ratchet...." - leading directly into his project for Nightbeat in Eye of the Storm.

As for poor old Megatron II- he manages to return to where he wanted to go; Cybertron, just after he left for Earth, over a year ago, but by now the shell of sanity and coherent memory granted to him by the Psycho-Probe during Salvage has completely broken apart, and he simply skulks in Helex, lost and confused, as seen in Mind Games, not even clearly sure why he's there, his memories of why he came back- indeed that he came back, lost, until finally Megatron I arrives in Helex, having learned of Megatron II and royally pissed off about it. He finds there, one confused, bewildered, nightmare ridden and deranged Megatron-doppelgänger. When Megatron I confronts this clone with the truth of his origins, the clone remembers and kills himself. Ravage is left thinking "WTF?"

 

Are you Simon? Lol wow 

 

Lol, no. The idea of Earthforce being set during Matrix Quest was one from Ryan Frost's "Transform and Roll Out", I just got to thinking about how there could possibly be a Megatron there, and it sort of grew therefrom.

 

A lot of knowledge though. Thanks for all of it!

 

You're welcome, grins, to be honest, I think my main reason for preferring an explanation which puts Earthforce in the 'main' timeline is simple enough- I very much like the appropriateness of the idea that during "On the Edge of Extinction", after the death of Scorponok, the tide starts to turn when, in their last act as a separate unit... the revived Earthforce arrive, and backhand slap Unicron in the face with the Ark. It's just the kind of thing they'd do.

 

I don't have much to add other than good thought and I would LOVE an ROD miniseries.

You also don't need to apologize for reupping this thread. I personally love Regeneration One despite the rushed ending of the last issue and the poor handling of Jhiaxus. So I always look forward to more discussion on the series.

 

Thanks! I love the ROD timeline. (I also think it’s interesting to note that Rhythms of Darkness (ROD) = Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime.)