Reasons to respect Michael Bay

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Hotshotprime43, Sep 26, 2015.

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  1. Lord Tron

    Lord Tron Well-Known Member

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    Except you're the one with the invalid argument Darkseeker you're stating things on how the movies should be. Hazekiah on the other hand is stating basically movie making facts. He's looking at Transformers as movie franchise as a whole not an adaptation.

    All you're doing is stating the same things over and over again it should be about the transformers while Hazekiah is actually explaining and giving examples of how in pretty much every other movie this isn't the case. Alien is the story of Ripley, true but it could be argued that the first trilogy is the story of Sam, Spielberg sure thinks so. Dorothy's journey actually has some similarities to Sam.

    The movies follow the structure of basically any protagonist journey. Another example the new apes franchise Ceaser is the hero but he is not the protagonist of either instead the story is told through the human character he interacts with just like transformers. Jurassic Park is about Grants journey.

    Basically each movie is about a human characters journey it's just how movies work. ET was about ET but he wasn't the protagonist. Every Hulk movie is ultimately about Bruce Banner the hulk plays a part but the emotional weight of the story is Banner the human side. The Terminator despite the being named after the machine is actually about the Connor's before Genisys the main character and hero was clearly John Conner not Arnold, the human not the machine. Finally even the 1990 TMNT movie it was about the turtles but the character whose perspective the story was told from April just like the new.

    Is any of this getting through if not I will ask a simple question. Let's say through some twist of fate the movies were the only version of the franchise therefore you don't have any knowledge of the robots or the mythology as such you are being introduced to them just as Sam and the other humans are. If you have no knowledge and this was your intro would you expect them to be the main characters probably not because it's never been done before why all of sudden expect it now instead you would probably be shocked at the amount of screen time and focus that was being given to big budgeted effects if there was nothing else in the franchise and Age came out, people would be shocked absolutely shocked to see a movie where the CG characters were pretty much the main characters.

    As already stated what Age of Extinction did with the robots is truly groundbreaking and has really never been done before if so only a select few times. If fans would look at the movies as just that a movie series instead of an adaptation there would be no reason to complain about robot screen time.
     
  2. Raiju

    Raiju Navel Shocker Veteran

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    *shrug* I don't have to respect the man. What I do respect is what his work has done for the franchise as a whole (which has had more positive benefits than negative detriments in the grand scheme of things).

    Still had those licenses? I'm not so sure, especially considering that Takara Tomy staff explicitly cite (in the Official Masterpiece Guidebook) the popularity of the live action films as the main reason as to how easily and quickly they're able to acquire licenses from the likes of Lamborghini, Lancia, and Volkswagen.

    Chevrolet and Nissan would've played ball with TT regardless since they had already established a business relationship with the Alternators/Binaltech and Alternity lines, I suppose. But the Europrean brands, highly unlikely without the push that the Bay movies gave the TF brand.
     
  3. Dark Skull

    Dark Skull Well-Known Enabler Veteran

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    Dude that's NOT what was being discussed here Lord Tron. Let me break this down for you so you can actually understand what's being discussed/argued since you obviously didn't read or comprehend anything that you did read (if you actually read).

    - He's complaining about people complaining about why TFs have more human interaction than it should.

    - He desperately reaches for arguments by taking two movies out of context so that he can make his point. That is not only a logical fallacy, but more along the lines of the "strawman argument" that he's trying to accuse me of.

    - I'm only pointing out that there isn't any misleading in the movies (that he's trying to claim) because on the onset of those movies, it was UNDERSTOOD what the movies were about to begin with. So thus, it's a piss poor use of a comparison (when I'm sure there might be another good one to use).

    - Again, this is all about people complaining about how much human interaction there is in the Bay films. NOT so much about the title. A thing he brought in to try to make sense of and justify his piss poor comparison.

    - Finally, he's not stating any facts that actually support his incessant whining about people complaining about human interaction.

    If you actually read his post and then his responses, he actually embodies the strawman argument because he went off on one thing, and then passionately argued for another while thinking he's not. And you know what? You....are doing the same damned thing whether you want to realize it, or admit it or not.

    That....is the point. You can argue all day long Lord Tron. You can respond with your verbal diarrhea all day long, but the actual fact is, and I'll summarize for you again:

    - he complained about people complaining about the amount of human involvement/interaction in the Bay TF movies.

    - he used a piss poor comparison

    - I pointed out why it's a piss poor comparison

    - he, more than anyone else, used a straw man argument and then accused me of it.

    - he then passionately argued points (in somewhat of an insulting manner) that had absofuckinglutely not a damned thing with why people are complaining about the amount of human interaction/involvement in the TF Franchise by taking two movies out of context and desperately try to make it into context. Just like what you're doing.

    Is that simple enough for you to understand? Don't answer that. That was rherotical.

    *edit*

    Once again, let me clarify, I...do not....care....about....the...amount....of.....human....interaction.
    But if you or anyone is going to "compare," at the VERY LEAST choose a comparison that makes sense! Using two movies where the plots and characters are well understood from the get go......and trying to force it to make sense...actually...does not make it make sense no matter how much you want it to!

    And for the love of all that is holy Lord Tron....STOP DERAILING THREADS WITH THIS NONSENSE!
    We're supposed to be talking about reasons why people should respect Bay. Like HOLY FUCKING SHIT! I thought it was only the Bay haters complaining that derails threads needlessly. But apparently, blind Bay fanboys do the same shit outta nowhere.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2015
  4. Lord Tron

    Lord Tron Well-Known Member

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    Darkseeker my comment does relate to that what has been done with the transformers is a perfectly valid reason to like Bay considering it was near impossible a few years ago. Bay makes it possible on a reasonable budget.

    The trailers aren't misleading anyone watching it would think Sam was the main character it's obvious so no they are not misleading you. Also how are my facts not valid what makes them verbal diarrhea as you say how are these situations not the same a protagonist is a protagonist journey.

    I'm not derailing the thread I'm stating something that connects to it in a different way and then people typically dismiss it like they always do so I dig deeper but this is all connected, the connection is that Bay has done something with visual effects that few can match this should be respected there's your point.

    Also other people derailed the thread long before me and Hazekiah did we just responded so don't blame us for that also would it kill you to be a little nicer I'm aware Hazekiah comes off a bit strong and sometimes Harsh but that's no reason to react as rudely as you have.
     
  5. Dark Skull

    Dark Skull Well-Known Enabler Veteran

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    Thank you for making my point Lord Tron. You didn't even read anything as to what was going on, and here you go, flying off on a different tangent. But I must applaud the effort in trying to steer this back on topic....even though it really is on a different tangent than what was being discussed at the moment....

    Rude? Surely you jest. Ye who called people "thickheaded" amongst other things and then tried to deny it? Wow. Yeah no, that's not gonna work here. Try again. Better yet, try again with someone else who will care enough to continue this. That goes for you too Hazekiah.

    I got a better idea....yup....this works out better.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2015
  6. Hazekiah

    Hazekiah Banned

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    I say YES! The more the better, lol.

    Glad you like 'em! TF:RotF is one of my favorites, too.

    But was that supposed to actually be any kind of rebuttal? What's so stupid about the comparison?

    Don't be shy, let's hear it!

    Aww, you're so sweet!

    And am I actually supposed to care what my "reputation" is amongst people who can't even understand the simplest of points let alone capably refute them?

    So the point that The Wizard of Oz and Alien (just to pick two handy examples) are comparable to, say, the first Transformers film in terms of limited screentime for titular characters does not stand because...why exactly?

    Not seeing a worthy rebuttal there.

    LOL, okay.

    So Transformers was NOT based on any earlier TF media? Sure, that must be why it featured a G1 cast, the Witwicky family, Hoover Dam, etc.

    For the sake of clarity, the point I made and to which you flailingly responded was that the trailer for The Wizard of Oz mentioned him repeatedly yet he's barely in the film for five minutes, which is analogous to the frequent and misguided complaint that the Transformers movies "aren't even about the Transformers."

    So NOW you're saying that MY threads are NOT well-written, thought out, researched, or sensible? Not to toot my own horn here or anything, but that's pretty laughable, lol. Whether you agree with them or not I'd like to think they at least have THAT much going for them.

    And wait...when did I suddenly acquire a so-called inner circle?!? I'm just a regular guy posting here like anybody else.

    Well, since my point was NOT that the alien in Alien was something other than a predatory species, which seemed to be the non-existent point you were refuting for some reason, yeah...it was kind of a Strawman representation of what I'd said, actually.

    And I don't really need to do any more research on The Wizard of Oz or Alien, thanks. I've basically been researching both my entire life, so I already know exactly what both films are about. If you think I posted anything which suggested otherwise I'd be curious to hear what that might be.

    If I'm deciphering your poorly-written rant properly (irony!), you seem to be making the point that my presumed neglect for why people complain about humans in these movies (i.e. their overall screentime relative to the titular characters), somehow establishes that my posts contain "much informational fallacy"...???

    o_O 

    Ohhhh-kay, lol.

    But just for the record, the screentime of titular characters is EXACTLY what I've been discussing here.

    Such as...?

    And again, where have I posted ANYTHING which suggests I haven't actually seen Alien or The Wizard of Oz? And how exactly have I "put them down?"

    All I did was use them as comparative examples of films which feature their titular characters exceedingly briefly because...well, that's exactly what they are.

    You're hilarious, lol.

    No, I get all that...although I'd counter that particularly in the G1 Marvel Comics, for instance, Buster Witwicky was VERY MUCH a central, primary protagonist.

    And the obvious crucial difference here is that photorealistic CGI is VASTLY more expensive than comic book art and cell animation from the 80s. So complaining about the screentime for Transformers in one medium relative to the others is ridiculously ignorant.

    Who refuted which of my arguments here again?

    Where was that?

    Did I miss something?

    >_>

    <_<

    Hmmm. Not seeing it.

    Which points have I made which were neither "fair" nor "valid," exactly?

    In any case, if people happen to get a chuckle or two out of my posts and threads then I'm more than happy to have brightened their day. Thanks!

    :) 

    And where was I being unfair? When was I wearing blinders? Where exactly did I "make up" any fallacies, as you say? Which points have I ignored and how have they rendered my points invalid? Where did I ignore anything people dislike about Bay's vision? Whose opinion am I not accepting?

    Oh, wait...you're just randomly talking shit again, n/m.

    Thanks, you do the same!

    However, I once again invite you to illustrate for me an example of anything I've posted which wasn't an "intelligent, researched based [sic]" observation or any points I've made which were compromised by bias.
     
  7. Lord Tron

    Lord Tron Well-Known Member

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    Hazekiah i agree with you though you should probably tone it down a little some of the things you stated did come off a little rude I agree but maybe you could state it in a less aggressive manner.

    Darkseeker You don't care and yet here you are wasting your time continuing regardless it would seem we are more alike then you will admit and really my comment about being thickheaded you're kind of supporting it even if this is off topic which the haters (I hate that term but nothing else to use at the time) already went out of their way to derail but of course you wouldn't notice this. You would call comments that flat out examine a protagonist journey across all film and how these movies do the same as invalid.

    You would ignore the straight up facts I put about basically every movie doing the same thing you would dismiss it as meaningless. You would ignore a very valid question about if half the complaints with these movie and especially Bay would exist if this was the first version.

    You would dismiss all this and fail to see that it all leads to the idea that Bay and the movies like it or not have done something few others have that is groundbreaking that is to be commended.

    You would say those situations from Alien wizard of Oz and others have nothing to do with each other when they have everything to do with it. It is the same situation nothings changed.

    Finally you would completely ignore the fact that is usually but not always the case it was the Bay haters who derailed everything first instead preferring to blame us while ignoring the proof all around read numerous comments before Hazekiah and I posted it was already off course we did nothing and you yourself didn't help.

    So yes I would stand by my original claim not because you disagree with us but because you clearly don't care for us and would rather blame everything that happened in this thread on us rather than seeing it was derailed two comments after it was posted.

    So yeah if you would rather blame us for all this rather than see the very obvious facts simply because you prefer it be on us then yes that is thickheaded. That is a straight up refusal to see the facts and proof right in front of you and instead see what you would prefer despite it not being even remotely true that may as well be the definition of it.
     
  8. Plainsjumper

    Plainsjumper Well-Known Member

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    Bay's 1st TF movie gave us Ironhide as a pickup truck.. and that was an improvement over G1. And "muh childhood" cartoon was the G1 series.
     
  9. Dark Skull

    Dark Skull Well-Known Enabler Veteran

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    Gotta love it when people unwittingly make my point time and time again :D  *smdh*
     
  10. Lord Tron

    Lord Tron Well-Known Member

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    What point would that be? I don't believe the haters are Geewunners I believe they are either A. people with valid and legit complaints or B. Michael Bay haters who refuse to acknowledge anything positive and have a select view on how the movies should go. They also have a set mentality that anything Michael Bay makes sucks automatically as this very thread shows.

    A video stating positive qualities about Bay the Bay hate comments start almost immediately after. Most of those facts are true Bad Boys is one of the first action movies I can think of that has two african american leads this is pretty much true. Cameron, Spielberg, Nolan all respect him he has inspired many directors once again true. He has respect for his vision above all else and sticks to his guns no matter what even in the face of overwhelming criticism true. He has launched many actors careers some of them destroyed them afterwards but he put them on the map true. He actually is a technical genius who does pay that much attention to detail this is shown through every making of feature he has ever done. Finally he has changed action movies this is one fans are desperate to disapprove one person stating that The Matrix was made before Bad Boys when the lateral came four years earlier.

    Simply put people refuse to acknowledge anything good about Bay despite it staring them in the face transformer fans are even worse about this thinking anyone could do better despite there being no evidence to support this.

    People accuse of Bay of not evolving when literally every director is similar doing the same kind of movies because they like them it's okay for Nolan to do nothing but character dramas and no ever since The Dark Knight Nolan has not evolved maybe even before his films have the same kind of pacing, structure and tone and even main character it's his style and people love it. However when Bay does his style he's accused of not evolving despite the fact that Nolan doesn't really evolve either he just does the type of movies he likes. SO it's okay for Nolan to do what he likes but not Bay.

    Bay has changed the action genre more than anyone will ever admit because they refuse to acknowledge that Bay has actually done some good even going out of their way to ignore solid proof.
     
  11. Sa173533

    Sa173533 Well-Known Member

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    This is why I don't like this side of the fandom. Because they refuse to see the negative aspects of the movie series and praise Bay because "he's a savior".

    I don't give two flying MacGuffins why this side likes the live action series, nor do I care. All I think is good about it is the toyline and that there could be a soft reboot later in the lifespan.

    For me, I can't find any reason to actually respect the person who created two rapper-sounding robots who can't even read their own native (Cybertronian) language and directed an entire movie just to pretty much get money out of China because that particular country was a major area of the movie.

    Not to say I hate the movies. I find them entertaining. But, I am not going to blindly be a follower of the "Cult of Bay" like a few certain members here.

    Just my two cents.
     
  12. Dark Skull

    Dark Skull Well-Known Enabler Veteran

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    Soooo much this! I should sig this.
     
  13. MnemonicSyntax

    MnemonicSyntax You know what happens to Messiahs, don't you?

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    I seriously don't think anyone here is any sort of cult or thinks Bay is a savior. What I do think is that people who like the films (myself for example) are more than happy with what we got and realize that it can go both ways if anyone replaced him. Let's look at Fantastic Four for a reboot.

    At least Bay's vision pulls from different aspects of the entire franchise. And it works for me. I find them entertaining. They're great movies, but they're not my favorite movies.

    It goes both ways too. People literally hate Bay so much (especially this fandom) because of X reason. Usually, that reason is explained away, and then I'm told that "Bay isn't that deep intentionally" or "Bay doesn't know how to make a plot" when a lot of the things brought up actually make sense if people follow along instead of putting on the Bay Blinders.

    So sure, while there's Bay haters, they'll also be Bay "cultists." But usually that's not even the case, it's just a Bay hater seeing what they want to see and then getting bent out shape over it because "it's Bay."

    Even with the toys it's that way. I've had to remind many people to just take off the Bay Blinders and recognize the toys as toys and what they think then and usually, they realize that it's just a huge hate for Bay.

    As for the twins, they can't read their "own language" because it was an old language, it'd be the same premise if you couldn't read Latin, where most of our words stem from.

    Just because there's a thread about the pros of Michael Bay, it doesn't mean the people who participate are Bay "cultists", and it's perfect acceptable to appreciate his work. But again, Bay haters have to come and rain on the parade as if they have something to prove or minds to change.
     
  14. CKPRIME

    CKPRIME Banned

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    Right on.
     
  15. NeverDoubt

    NeverDoubt Well-Known Member

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    If there's no Bay cultists, then perhaps there's no Bay haters either. But I'm bias in that the only thing I hate is the word "haters."
     
  16. MnemonicSyntax

    MnemonicSyntax You know what happens to Messiahs, don't you?

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    They're not mutual. One can exist without the other. And it clearly does.
     
  17. NeverDoubt

    NeverDoubt Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. Every fandom has that yin and yang of overly positive fans vs overly negative ones.
     
  18. Dark Skull

    Dark Skull Well-Known Enabler Veteran

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    I think the fandom is like a spectrum. There's always going to be the extremes on either end and then people all in between who just enjoy the films/comics/cartoons or don't enjoy them in varying degrees.

    Don't forget that with the yin and yang there's that light in darkness concept and vice versa. FWIW though, I'm not going to disagree with anyone who says Bay does deserve a certain amount of respect. People will always have their opinions on him, and that's fine. It gets problematic when one side or the other treat their opinons as fact instead of it just being simply one's own opinion of Bay.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2015
  19. NeverDoubt

    NeverDoubt Well-Known Member

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    Good point about the light in darkness and vice versa.

    I don't mind if people state their opinion authoritatively. I certainly know it's their opinion without them spelling it out. And I want people to have faith in their opinions, not be all wishy washy.
     
  20. Lord Tron

    Lord Tron Well-Known Member

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    Bay is flawed I admit this in fact to prove this I am going to list flaws I have the movies to show that I don't find them perfect.

    First. While I enjoy the human characters Sam's plot isn't very engaging the only arc for him I actually liked was revenge of the Fallen because I liked the whole blaming himself for Optimus's death and his quest to revive him. His other arcs weren't all that great.

    Second: While the government reaction to the transformers were explored very well the public reaction was not we really didn't get enough of the how the public looked at them which I would've liked to see.

    Third: The humor is unnecessary in a lot of areas I can ignore it but most of it probably shouldn't of been there.

    Fourth: While the third and especially forth were going to always clock in at near two and half hours I do admit there is still some padding and the movies could use a little more time in the editing room the first two should've been a little more than two hours revenge should've been about 130 minutes without credits that one did need some editing in quite a few areas.

    Fifth: continuity and planning these movies could definitely use a little more planning the continuity while not impossible is quite difficult to piece together and I'm hoping the fifth and prequel fix this problem.

    Those are my main issues with the films they are not perfect I have no idea which problems link to Bay and which don't but the movies do have flaws but for me they have slowly been correcting most of those flaws though there are still quite a few that remain.
     
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