Except for the fact that many have argued why they see these as respectable films and have found plenty of depth to be found the problem is most people here just dismiss it and say yeah right it's Bay or Kruger's an idiot no way he could think of that. Basically we state things and you ignore them stating that there's no way any meaningful depth or message in the film is anything but accidental because naturally it's Bay. This thread further proves this something that proves Bay has done good and it still turns into a Bay sucks thread. This is very annoying because while I will certainly admit Bay has his flaws in certain areas the as they are called haters (though I hate that term) refuse to acknowledge anything positive about him. It really is a one sided conversation because so many people here refuse to admit that Bay is capable of anything good.