quintessons or primus?

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by ultra lynx, Feb 7, 2007.

  1. daMooseVS

    daMooseVS Well-Known Member

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    Oh quite, as a plot element its got a lot more going for it.
    And if shoehorning needbe, Primacon could have always helped Unicron into the final stages of the form we know, from a mechanoid planet similar to Cybertron of the G1 cartoon to the full-on Unicron planet/bot. Primacon's initial systems could have guided it until the spirit within the shell awoke and broke free.

    I just can't buy the Quintisson origin. Almost anything BUT that. Shrewd businessmen and opprotunists don't take millions of years to rein in rouge appliances. Can you picture a 500 year old vampire trying to rein in an antique toaster oven? Or would he just got buy a new toaster oven?
     
  2. flamepanther

    flamepanther Interested, but not really

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    Well the problem with the Sunbow cartoon is that it had some great ideas (along with some crappy ones), but typically very sub-par writing. The Marvel comics were lazy with some of their ideas (c'mon, resorting to a dualist pantheon to explain everything is a cop-out.), but were generally pretty well written as cop-outs go. That can make the comics seem more believable even on the occasions that the show actually had a better idea. I think that had the Quintessons been written as more menacing and competent, and had the war been explained and fleshed out better, we might be having a very different discussion in this thread.
     
  3. Deathx360

    Deathx360 Farewell Dear Friend

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    I prefer the Quints myself. It is what I remember as a kid and I didn't know of Primus until I started looking Transformers up on the web and saw Beast Wars. To me the Quint origin will always be better.

    If you want to mix the two for the cartoon you could say the Quints found a planet that Primus inhabited and split his spirit into two pieces, the Matrix and Vector Sigma, but did not get it all leaving the Oracle behind (in the Call of the Primitives episode when the Oracle says that it was Primacron's assistant it shows the Matrix rising so that is why I put it in there and would explain why Sky Lynx says that it feels like they are heading home). The Quints find a planet that is more suitable for their needs and build Cybertron. As an added bonus the Cybertron from Beast Machines (which of course had the Oracle) could be the second Cybertron Galvatron vowed to build at the end of Rebirth and the real Cybertron would not be some weird techno-organic mess. That's how I would do it based on what I know from the many inconsistencies in G1 and the Beast Era.
     
  4. Lord Gyconi

    Lord Gyconi Phantom Space Man

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    Not exactly.

    No TF fiction is ever truly completely over and done with. Every TF series and storyline is open to sequels, expansions, and even "retcons." From G1, to Beast Wars, to the Unicron Trilogy. None of it is safe from being changed in some way at any point in the future.

    Your Star Wars analogy is flawed. The "Expanded Universe" weren't written or created by George Lucas, nor are they considered canon. All TF series and stories, be it Beast Wars, RiD, The Unicron Trilogy, the Ultimate Guide, and the Botcon and Collector's Club comics, are created and sanctioned by Hasbro and are considered to be canon and relevant. Hell, the Collector's Club comic is written by Forest Lee, who's actually employed by Hasbro.

    A more apt comparison would be between the original trilogy and the prequel trilogy. Both were created by George Lucas, and are considered canon, despite the changes made to the originals in the prequels.

    Hasbro has decided that Primus is the true creator of the Transformers and is the lifeforce of Cybertron in all continuities. And since Hasbro owns the property, they get to decide what the story is.

    And for the record, I DO like the Quintesson origin. It's one of the very few elements from G1 I still like, but as it stands, it's no longer the actual canonical origin for the Transformers.
     
  5. Seeker

    Seeker Time Lord

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    I think my TFverse origin story problem has just been solved. The idea of the QUints creating this timeline's Primus' body but his sentience coming from somewhere else sounds great to me. In other Tfverses the one can explain it the other way around.
     
  6. flamepanther

    flamepanther Interested, but not really

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    Actually, no. Star Wars has multiple levels of canon. George Lucas has recognized the SW EU as its own canonical universe separate from his own on multiple occasions. Lucas Licensing recognizes multiple levels of official canon. Anything George Lucas says about SW is absolute canon for both the movie universe and the expanded universe. Below that is material that is considered canon in the Expanded universe. Below that is material that is only canon where it doesn't contradict higher official EU canon. Below that is material which is officially not canon at all. All of this canon material is approved by Lucas either personally or through his companies. Some of it has even been adopted from EU canon into movie canon, or created for movie canon but authorized for introduction into the EU first. A lot of EU canon material is written by employees of Lucas companies, much like the Collector's Club material from Hasbro.

    To be honest, I don't think Hasbro as a company cares all that much about canon and continuity. They're the ones who have insisted on the idea of Transformers as a "mythos". The Collectors' Club material is a service to a specific audience. That audience tends to be obsessed with continuity and canon, so they give it to us, in whatever contrived way they can. There's no underlying "real truth" behind any TF fiction, and although all of it (in the US) is approved by Hasbro, Hasbro doesn't always care much what it is. If you watched the G1 cartoon, but you're not part of the hardcore "Collector's Club" audience, then the extra material and retcon pretty much doesn't exist. Let's also not forget that there's TF canon outside of Hasbro's jurisdiction, in Japan. The Sunbow cartoon, up through season three, is canon pretty much everywhere in the world. The Ultimate Guide and the club material are not. Now what?
     
  7. TheJackal

    TheJackal Banned

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    The Quintessons didn't make Megatron, the Constructicons created him.
     
  8. kjeevahh

    kjeevahh n/a

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    primus is lame. im finding it really hard to stop myself from having a big rant about religion here, but the whole idea is just silly anyway.

    surely a much better origin is the transformers being created as slaves to evil masters, and then uprising and overthrowing them?

    and just for the record, according to the UK marvel comics, it was the quintessons who created them.
     
  9. Omnibus Prime

    Omnibus Prime I'm too old for this shit TFW2005 Supporter

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    All I know is, I thought FFoD sucked at the time, in animation quality and story with the Quint angle. I thought the Primacron Unicron origin was even lamer. Aside from all that, even then, I preferred the continuous story of the comic to the half hour commercial of the cartoon where events from one to the next rarely connected. After bailing on the toys and comics circa '88, I did later pick up #56-59 just for the Megatron/Ratchet arc. I missed Primus' introduction in #60-61 and the subsequent snowballing to #75.

    Fast forward to '94ish when I picked up all but a couple of Furman's run on Marvel G1 for a buck a pop on a whim. I had glanced through #70 a few years before when it was on the rack, drawn to the cover which obviously followed up on the last TF thing I had seen...Megs and Ratchet go boom. I was like "Oh? Unicron finally in the comic eh? And what's this Primus jazz?"...and that was the extent of it until a few years later. I had started wandering into the comic shop again, had money to burn and decided I would see what the hell that was all about. Latter G1 issues hadn't even begun to spike, and $20 for the entire back end was nothin'.

    Blew me away. That was the catalyst for everything else. Well, that and the house fire that destroyed all my childhood toys. Even so, one or the other alone might not have been enough. Together, they sent me into full-on G1 fanboy nostalgia trip and I started buying toys I lost in the fire, toys I always wanted but never had, toys from the later years that I originally thought were stupid, or didn't even know about at the time, but wanted due to their role in the #60+ comics.

    To me, the Primus/Unicron origin laid out in the US comics and the UK stories that weaved in and out of US G1 continuity is definitive. Fuck the Quintessons. Hell, fuck the cartoon (even though I bought all the DVD sets). To me it was the comic, and belatedly Furman's run in particular, that turned TFs from a savvy marketing ploy that I bought into as a kid into something more...epic, for lack of a better word, that could be taken more seriously than the ginormous advertising campaign that it all really was.

    I dinna care for attempts to reconcile US G1 toon and comic continuities, let alone trying to shoehorn everything into one definitive canon. If there's been an attempt to reconcile comic Primus and Unicron with their A/E/C versions, I'm oblivious to it and will remain so. There are so many different continuities/timelines that you can't link everything, so you just pick what you like. Much like Star Wars..while there's not multiple continuities, there's just simply too much to deal with now, so you subjectively discard what you think sucks and latch on to what you think is good. KJA = bad, Zahn = good for example.

    Yeah, so in short, comic >>> cartoon; Primus >>>>>>>>>> Quintessons. Felt I should explain myself rather than just post that though.
     
  10. ZeroMayhem

    ZeroMayhem Henshin a Go-Go Baby!

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    You sir get :thumb  :thumb  from me. That's pretty much my thoughts as well, and you saved me from having to type it all out.
     
  11. Lord Gyconi

    Lord Gyconi Phantom Space Man

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    The difference is that Transformers canon doesn't really have an equivalent to SW's "Expanded Universe." All official TF stories are equally considered canon.

    Synopses of the Collector's Club comics aren't too hard to find by anyone with an internet connection, and IDW is reprinting the first 12 issues in a trade paperback. And the whole multiversal Unicron/Primus storyline didn't even originate in the convention and Collector's Club comics, it originated from the more widely known Worlds Collide story arc from the Armada comics published by Dreamwave .

    And of course Japanese canon is going to differ from our canon. In Japan for instance, Galaxy Force is a stand alone series, Cybertron was swallowed by the Black Hole, and Nitro Convoy was a guy. In the US, Cybertron is a sequel to Armada and Energon, Cybertron was not consumed by the Black Hole, and Override is a fembot. So while the comics published by Marvel, 3H, Dreamwave, Fun Publishing, and IDW may not necessarily be acknowledged by Takara-Tomy, they are acknowledged by Hasbro. Which means as far as canon outside of Japan goes, Primus is the creator of the Transformers across all continuities.
     
  12. flamepanther

    flamepanther Interested, but not really

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    That's the thing though. The Subow G1 cartoon crosses multiple canons with little change, and only one of those canons says that Primus created the Transformers in all universes. Quite a few of us are fans of the Headmasters/Masterforce/Victory continuity. Like comics, it retroactively includes the Sunbow G1 cartoon (albeit much more directly), but it's unaffected by the Primus retcon. If the cartoon is absorbed into a multiiverse where Primus made the Transformers, and a universe where he didn't, yet both are official canon, then the show still works as both.

    A simpler way to look at it is this. The comic book material is designed to draw from the animated material and creates an umbrella multiverse that can incorporate them. From the perspective of the Western comic book multiverse, the Sunbow cartoon is a part of it. From the perspective of the cartoon universe, that additional material isnt' there and has no effect. It's a one-way channel. Even more simply: Universe includes the cartoon. The cartoon does not include Universe.
     
  13. Sagitta

    Sagitta Nuetral

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    Agreed. I never liked the Primus in any shape or form in the storyline. (Or Unicron for that matter actually.)

    If anything, made more sense to me the Autobots were orginally to be the "maintaiers of worlds" after the worlds had been conqoured by the Decepticons for their masters. Hence the Defenders and Destroyers motif. While the Quintissons watched in the background and raked in their profits.

    Of course, the slave uprisings occured caused the Quints a bit of a problem. Too bad, so sad.

    Anyway, the Transformers various lines and concepts have so many differing and conflicting info. And that goes for both the comics, novels, and television series. The symplistic way of setting the cannon is:

    Autobots: Good guys led by Optimus (insert name here)
    Decepicons: Bad guys led by Megatron here. Always has a backstabber nearby,

    That said, the G1 series in the first two seasons appeared as if it wasn't about to alude to a the presence of a Transformers polythiesm whereas the comics took a differnt turn.
     
  14. Sagitta

    Sagitta Nuetral

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    What of the UK storyline of Target 2006 (why it wasn't "2005" I have no idea...) in which the events of the animated movie were incorperated into comic? Thus an intersection between the comic and the series?

    Ugh. Giving me a headache here.
     
  15. icanfly

    icanfly Well-Known Member

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    Not wanting to cause any further headaches, but where does Tornitron fit in with the fan-mythos you guys are imagining up?

    Regards

    JL
     
  16. Sol Fury

    Sol Fury The British Butcher Administrator News Staff

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    The way I see this whole thing, is that Primus created the Transformers, but then the Quintessons found them and marketed them as their products. The Quints decided to lie and suggest they made the Transformers themselves as it was better advertising than "hey want to buy these robots we found". Manufacturing products always sounds better than telling people you're running a slave trade.
    Unicron was not created by Primacron, but in line with the idea that Unicron enslaves lower races to maintain him, he recruited Primacron to work on his body and rebuild him. There was an accident that rendered Primacron unhinged right after Unicron cast him aside, combined with his advanced age Primacron had an incorrect recollection of what actually happened (I forget who worked this out but it makes the most sense reconciling both).

    The Matrix as Primacron's assistant doesn't fit too well, of course, unless Primus had in fact used it to contact Primacron and try to help him in rebuilding a less powerful Unicron, one with a weakness that crippled his full destructive power, then retroactively denied knowledge so he could not be blamed for unleashing Unicron once more.

    Tornitron, to my mind, is a creation of Primacron, created using Primacron's knowledge of Unicron and what he learned from his contact with him.

    Vector Sigma in all of this would be an aspect of Primus, left active to maintain Primus and his creations. Perhaps the Quintessons corrupted it or did something to it to keep it from operating properly?
     
  17. Fairlady_Z

    Fairlady_Z Official Voice of Flareup

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    I like both origins. I tend to think it was the Quints who built the TFs but it was Primus who gave them sentience/souls/sparks through Vector Sigma or whatever and eventually led to their "creations" rebelling. As for Primacron...can we just pretend that didn't happen? Or maybe, Primacron was being mind controlled to build Unicron's spark a new body. Unicron has been shown in the comics to be able to possess people or a least get them to do his bidding like his did with Galvatron in the movie. Can't explain the Matrix as his assistant though, expect to say that maybe Primacron was skewing the truth to get the "primatives" on his side. Maybe I'd come up with a decent retcon if I watched the ep again.
     
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  18. A/OrionPax/3

    A/OrionPax/3 Welcome to Funkutron

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    No matter who created the tfs, twas Alpha Tryon who fathered the autobots. Orion Pax was converted to Optimus Prime, and his girl whos name escapes me, was converted to elita one. He coverted non battle-ready bots of the golden age into powerful warriors to handle the new menace of Megatron. As far as im concerned, Alpha Tryon is Prime's daddy. It pissed me off when in the return of Optimus Prime episodes, Rodimus said the Quints created him, so they were the only ones who could fix him. The Quints had been overthrown on cybertron long before Orion/Optimus was created.

    Oh yeah, Prime for president, Rodimus for VP. Dont really like either Roddy or Magnus, but he's the lesser of the two bitches.
     
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