Quintessa and what might have been

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Mike Smith, Apr 12, 2020.

  1. ChaosDonkey

    ChaosDonkey Lord Brain

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    for me quintessa was simple a prime. And showed us that other primes can fall as well. She just did it out of other reasons and circumstances then the fallen. Reasons never explained.

    She was like Solus Prime and Liege Maximo in one person.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2020
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  2. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Droppin' Space Colonies

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    So, in essence, you're saying "screw the fans who have been loyal to this franchise, just blindly consume whatever bullshit gets produced with the Transformers brand label on it," because that way you can simply scapegoat the fandom for not liking how things are portrayed, as opposed to actually recognizing any legitimate flaws a film may have as a film. Expecting "constructive criticism" from the general public is completely asinine.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2020
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  3. Rumblestorm

    Rumblestorm Well-Known Member

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    I think listening to fans can go one way or another, depending on the factors.
    On one hand you get what happened with Bumblebee where they listened to the fans who wanted less toilet humor and better representations of the franchise's characters, and we ended up getting a perfect balance of new and old designs where most fans can find middleground without any complaints. The furthest the movie went as far as toilet humor was Charlie willing to clean the restrooms of her uncle's garage if it meant being able to get Bumblebee . Story was well balanced too, and the movie recieved good reception.
    On the other end of the spectrum, you get Star Wars TROS where they where too preoccupied with the pressure of pleasing the fans by undoing most of TLJ but only ended up digging themselves deeper into a hole. A lot of that franchise's fans already went in hating it, so in the end TROS had nothing to show for its creative decisions. Personally, I liked TROS, but honestly it should have just followed what TLJ set up. Controversial, yes, but atleast it would have finished what it started WITHOUT having to resort to using fan-service in vain (gee, that sounds familiar doesn't it?)

    Its a risk listening to fans, and a lot of factors are involved that can lead it to going either way.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2020
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  4. Galvatross

    Galvatross Hazekiah/Jaegertron 2020! Veteran

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    That's not what I'm saying at all.

    What I'm saying is that 1) films need to appeal to wider audiences than hardcore fandoms, and 2) being hyperbolically negative is not good criticism, because film makers should know what they are doing well and not only what they are doing poorly.

    Also, what about the fans who are loyal to the franchise AND like the movies? I like the movies. They're not perfect or flawless, but I think they're better representatives of the brand than given credit and also have better examples of stories and characters than given credit.

    Finally, if you don't like the movies, you're not "being screwed." That just means you didn't like a movie. As an example, I didn't like TRoS; I actually think TLJ is the much better movie of the two, but I wasn't, "being screwed." I just didn't care for it (minus Babu Frik and several scenes and the alien designs and visuals), and I moved on. It's not worth getting legitimately pissed off over. If other people liked the movie and think it's a better movie than I do, there's nothing wrong with that.
     
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  5. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Droppin' Space Colonies

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    Except the bayverse doesn't appeal to the larger audience, either - the skewed financial results of AoE and the outright bomb that was TLK prove the films were completely unsustainable with the direction they were going. Acting like film makers should be praised for making complete garbage just because they did one thing right is like praising somebody for making a broken clock because the clock is right twice a day.

    "better examples of stories?" Oh, please, the Transformers films were getting into completely shitty sci-fi territory based on making humans more important than the robots - TLK proved this above all else because who is the actual title character? CADE YEAGER, who turned out to be a colossal asshole. Do you think people would go see a film titled "Transformers: Cade Yeager"?

    If you look through this entire franchise, outside of the films you'll see that Transformers generally do not get involved with human history on the scale the bayverse was utterly obsessed with using as a plot crutch. The closest is probably Beast Wars when Megatron ends up causing the Great Migration that leads into humans becoming the dominant species on Earth, but this event is so far distant in human history that it's the only thing in human history that gets influenced by aliens at any point - which is impressive given the kind of shit the Vok were up to with Earth at the same time. The stories are always firmly about the Transformers, full stop.

    Bayverse doesn't give a shit about the robots - it gives a shit about how the Transformers are side characters to the humans. Who saves the day in TF1? Sam Witwicky. Who is the one who proves worthy of the Matrix? SAM WITWICKY. Who is the one who essentially allowed the Autobots to emerge victorious in DOTM? Carly telling Megatron he's Sentinel's bitch and for him to grow a spine. Who is the most important character in AoE? Cade Yeager, who gives a canned "trash/treasure" speech to Prime and somehow is the catalyst for Lockdown expressing amazement Prime would sacrifice his life to save a human (instead of, y'know, his own fucking people who he totally abandoned and left to die but we've been over this before). TLK? CADE YEAGER IS LITERALLY THE TITULAR CHARACTER and the entire film is about how fucking screwed the humans would be if Transformers had somehow not been around since the literal dawn of creation and saving their asses - and then somehow completely forgot about all that shit even though it isn't like they've been doing anything in the past 2,000 years given Cybertron died millions of years ago.

    On the flip side, let's look at who the biggest threat to the Autobots is at all times until the end. TF1? Sector 7, made up of humans. ROTF? the Decepticons basically ask humans to trust them (Why would you fucking trust the evil robots) to not destroy their planet if they simply hold the Autobots at gunpoint, even though the Decepticon army simply proves they can crush human resistance easily thus raising the question of why can't they defeat like, seven Autobots through sheer numbers. DOTM? Decepticons/Sentinel ask the humans (who apparently forgot ROTF even happened) to kick the Bots off Earth and leave themselves wide open to get blown up essentially...and then in the end the Decepticons nearly win with the Autobots around anyway so why did they even bother asking the humans when they could have just done it themselves. AoE? Cemetery Wind somehow has global influence that outstrips the US Armed Forces and are the ones who make the Decepticons who are literally knockoffs. TLK? As this very thread points out, apparently the big bad of TLK WAS A FUCKING HUMAN ALL ALONG.

    Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the name of this franchise is not "HUMANS" now is it?

    Hell, in every other iteration, the only time the Decepticons even care about human mass murder is when it directly is tied to their ongoing civil war. Otherwise, they're only on Earth purely for resource mining or something other than simply "Destroy all Humans". With the movies, that's ultimately the gist of what they're trying to do and the actual benefits of their actions regarding the ongoing civil war are simply side bonuses.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2020
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  6. Galvatross

    Galvatross Hazekiah/Jaegertron 2020! Veteran

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    Say what? I'm sorry, but two movies over $1.1 billion? If two movies in a row make $1.1 billion, and four of them did over $700 million, that means those movies appealed to general audience members. Yeah, you can discuss how the movies did in different territories, and the fifth didn't do as well, but in the end, you had four wildly profitable big budget action flicks in a row.


    What the hell does story quality have to do with the role humans play? Your are making complaints that are based on what you want as a fan more than anything.

    And, "the Transformers films were getting into completely shitty sci-fi territory based on making humans more important than the robots?"

    1. Transformers has always been "shitty sci-fi territory." It's never been, "hard," serious science fiction.

    2. I find it extremely odd how you always go on and on about how the films make the humans, "More important than the robots," and then the film you actively hate the most is the film that makes an earnest attempt to do more with the robots. More on that below.

    Just because the Transformers movies aren't perfect, masterpiece narratives, it doesn't mean they don't have some good qualities for what they are trying to be.

    This is an apples and oranges comparison. The movies are live action. The robots have to be CGI animated, and that takes loads of money.

    The cartoons are entirely animated. The comics are entirely illustrated. The people making the live action movies have limits that the animators and illustrators do not.

    Also, the original cartoon had episodes like, "A Decepticon Wizard in King Arthur's Court" and "Dinobot Island," which are two of my favorites by the way. The Marvel Comics have "Man of Iron." Yeah, the movies no doubt have Transformers in human history as one of their schticks, and maybe it's not everyone's cup of tea, but who cares? It has plenty of precedence in the brand, as do most things in the Bay movies.

    Humans have often played an important part in Transformers cartoon episodes and comic issues. Chip Chase was a kid in a wheelchair who foiled the Decepticons. Lord Chumley was more effective against the Autobots than the Decepticons were before the 1986 movie. Marissa Fairborne was more competent in fighting the lipoles than Wheelie and Blurr. The Nebulans in Season 4 were basically just like humans, and they were important to the story of "The Rebirth." Animated had its human villains.

    I actually think AoE does a pretty good job of balancing the robots and humans, and I'd argue that Optimus and Cade together are the main protagonists of Transformers 4. Of course, Cade, being played by a real human, appears on screen longer, but the core of the movie is Optimus Prime being found by Cade after the former has lost his faith in humanity, and through their adventures he comes to care for humans again. They're both important to the story, and I also like how the Autobots, rather than being a part of N.E.S.T., are back to being autonomous again while working with a small group of human protagonists.

    Plus, that speech is actually a legitimately good lesson to live by, and it also fits the protagonists, robot and human, in the film.

    Isn't that the character of Optimus Prime? That "freedom is the right of all sentient beings?" And that by risking his life to defend a human's life, and their freedom as well, he is honoring that aspect of his character.

    And you have no idea what you are talking about on this issue, and the fact you keep saying this shows you are either making stuff up, or have never watched the movie, or both.

    Optimus Prime never "abandoned" his fellow Autobots, FFS. On the contrary, he was seriously injured by Lockdown, and, being physically unable to reach them, merely warned them the best he could. Since he didn't know who Lockdown's human allies, he told them to cease contact with humans. The Autobots were ambushed. It's not that difficult to understand.

    Prime NEVER said, "We are under targeted attack. Split up and abandon all contact with fellow Autobots." In fact, that Prime meets up with the Autobots as soon as possible in the Southwest after being repaired by Cade shows the opposite, that he DIDN'T abandon his Autobots, but actually tried to meet up with them as soon as he was physically able to.

    Actually, if there's a film he does abandon his own people in, it's 2007, because he's willing to let Bumblebee be captured by Sector 7 and not do anything.

    Never in the movies is it said or even implied Cybertron died millions of years ago. Yes, the Creators made the Transformers millions of years ago, but given all Transformers shown in the movies (besides Unicron) have been around on Earth in geologically recent times, it's much more likely the timescale for the war and its devastation on Cybertron was thousands of years and not millions.

    Who said the humans ever trusted them? Even in The Last Knight, it's abundantly clear Morshower and Lennox know Megatron can't be trusted.

    Because they're Decepticons? They use deception. Sounds about right.

    Say what now? Literally not one of those things is true. KSI was the company who was building Transformers, not Cemetery Wind. Furthermore, Cemetery Wind was Black Ops. The higher-up officials had no idea Attinger was hunting Autobots with the help of Lockdown; they were hunting them under the guise of hunting Decepticons.

    That was something never in the movies, and given Lorenzo says all sorts of stuff, I wouldn't put too much stock in his statements. Who cares what Lorenzo says? I don't. I think you put waaayyy too much worth into what he says in interviews.

    Live action Transformers movies are going to require human characters with prominent roles. It's inevitable.

    I don't know why you feel the need to go on profanity-laden rants in tedious posts that make it sound as if you're legitimately angry about Transformers fiction. You can state your criticisms without sounding so ticked off. Maybe you should try it some time?
     
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  7. Rumblestorm

    Rumblestorm Well-Known Member

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    You know, like I mentioned earlier, I was rewatching the movies recently. One other thing that TLK lacked was having any attempt at a heart-felt moment. One were the film actually tries to make you feel something.

    2007: Optimus and the Autobots at the observatory discussing why humanity is worth fighting for and why Optimus will make the ultimate sacrifice in order to destroy the Allspark.
    ROTF: The aftermath of Optimus's death where Bumblebee tells Sam that he is the person he cares about most, and that they can't give up.
    There's also the scene in the battle of Egypt where Sam is confronted by his dad who fears losing him, and Sam tells him that he has to let him go. Its further highlighted by the fact that earlier in the movie, out of both parents, he was seemingly the most ok with Sam heading out on his own. As an added bonus, Sam's mom, Judy, started off as a mess while Ron tried to console her, but by the end of the film the roles were reversed.
    DOTM:
    Arguably Sentintel and Optimus's conversation in Africa.
    The entire scene where Sam says goodbye to the Autobots before they board the Xanthium to leave Earth.
    AoE:
    Pretty much any scene involving Optimus and Cade alone in a room, like when he was repairing Optimus and near the end when they're on the ship heading to Hong Kong.
    I guess the scenes where Cade and Tessa are having their father-daughter moments.
    TLK
    Ok, as soon as I got to this point I realized there actually is something here. The scene with Cade hearing Tessa over the phone and his talk with Izzy about Tessa while repairing Bumblebee. I almost forgot about these scenes because every other moment in the film is everyone screaming out their lines in a hostile tone. It just wasn't as effective for me like the other movies where, probably because the scenes also passed by way too fast.
     
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  8. cybeast

    cybeast Well-Known Member

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    I dunno why people always go "THEY'RE CGI THEY COST A LOT"
    Isn't that like, the majority of superhero movies too? Hulk is a full CGI Green Man, Thanos, Iron Man, Spider-Iron Suit,etc.

    If budget is such a constraint, maybe try with fewer bots first, and less grand scene? Like TF: Bumblebee, for example, as compared to say, DotM's Driller.
     
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  9. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Droppin' Space Colonies

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    What's ironic is that somehow, everybody that uses the CGI argument that the robots are expensive seem to completely and utterly forget something important:

    They're still robot aliens when they're in alt. mode.

    I mean, the key issue is that the robots simply don't have presence as characters as much as they should, as when they turn into vehicles more often than not they just sit around doing nothing - all you literally have to do in those parts is just overlay the robot voices over shots of the vehicles in alt. mode and BAM instant easy scene of robots discussing stuff or even with other humans.

    There's also holomatter avatars, which have been a thing in the franchise for a while as well (like, you know, when we first encounter Blackout and Barricade). You don't need CGI to just have a guy stand around with a perma-smile on his face talking as a representation of a robot disguised as a car.

    There is simply no excuse for figuring out how to get around the expensive CGI problem when even the first film already had an answer for this (especially given the guy they used for Blackout's pilot/Barricade's driver wasn't even an actor - he was just the guy who delivered the vehicle to be used as Blackout for the opening scene and Bay decided to just slap a mustache on him and use him in the film) with the only realistic answer being that this is in fact intentional and the film producers didn't want to focus on the robots as characters.
     
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  10. cybeast

    cybeast Well-Known Member

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    Yes! When they're in alt mode, you often can't distinguish if you're watching a Fast and Furious Movie or TF movie.
     
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  11. Rumblestorm

    Rumblestorm Well-Known Member

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    I kinda wanna see a Fast and Furious/Transformers crossover now featuring the Stunticons as the main villains.
    The Autobot cast would include Override, Hot Rod, Blurr, Mirage, and Nautica.
     
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  12. hthrun

    hthrun Show accuracy's overrated

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    I don't know for sure, but it's probably cheaper to do human sized motion detection than doing all the effects needed to make a giant robot look realistic.
    Yeah, I've been wanting that for a while!
     
  13. cybeast

    cybeast Well-Known Member

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    Excuse, excuse.

    Burnout even mentioned the way they can give "robot presence" without the robot itself, while staying in universe due to established lores (Barricade's TF1 Hollogram, for example).

    Heck, like Burnout said, use the CAR and lay a voice over, maybe put some carlight beeping around, or the car shaking slightly to indicate who's talking. There's way to go to have the presence of TRANSFORMERS without always going robot.

    The worst example was probably from AoE, the famous submarine scene.

    We saw nothing except it maaaaybe jump to the water (because the next cut is it's swimming happily) to classify it as a transformers. They can give it some dialogue, or anything, but instead, they chose to make the submarine scene as if it's lifted from some other movies.
     
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  14. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Droppin' Space Colonies

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    Hey, look, I'll shit on AoE any day of the week gladly, but AoE didn't involve submarines. That was TLK...which I'll ALSO shit on any day of the week gladly, admittedly :lol 
     
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  15. cybeast

    cybeast Well-Known Member

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    Right, I forgot the last movies was TLK not AoE :D 
     
  16. ObakaChanTachi

    ObakaChanTachi every copy of obakachantachi 64 is personalized

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    I didn't even know the LK Submarine was a Transformer until the wiki pointed it out. Why'd it even need to be a Transformer, anyway?

    If it's possible to take random vehicles and declare them Transformers, I guess Hopkin's McLaren and Aston Martin (the car that became Cogman in the toyline) were secretly actually Cliffjumper and Silverstreak.
     
  17. cybeast

    cybeast Well-Known Member

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    Well, as mentioned before, the Submarine does started by itself, and jumped (not shown) to the water, because it's propped for display on the previous scene.

    But yes, the whole scene is stupid and pointless, especially that after the "jump" to the water, only through the human's dialogue we know it's a Transformers. Nope, the filmmaker didn't even bother to add dialogue like say, "ALL ABOARD THE SHIP" or make the submarine say some reference as a joke "WHO WANTS TO GO TWENTY THOUSAND LEAGUES UNDER THE SEA!?" or things like that to indicate, it's, at the very least, is a sentient being who can talk. Nope, we need the HUMAN to say "IT'S A TRANSFORMERS".
     
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  18. hthrun

    hthrun Show accuracy's overrated

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    Yeah, I think using voice overs with cars is a good idea.
     
  19. Terrellatron

    Terrellatron REPAIR REPAIR REPAIR

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    I would like to take a moment to say that dude...THATS FRIGGIN AWESOME
     
  20. Moy

    Moy Constructicons!

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    @Mike Smith
    I won't disregard the efforts that were made in TF4 by adding alien creatures to help the movie feel more sci fi.
    The creators especially.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    It was a good way to expand potential sequels into space and other worlds. That was my expectation at least.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Unfortunately the studios decided to keep the story in TF5 on earth again.

    And where exactly is the autobot and decepticon logo on Quintessa's head?
    [​IMG]
     
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