Quintessa and what might have been

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Mike Smith, Apr 12, 2020.

  1. Rumblestorm

    Rumblestorm Well-Known Member

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    You know, I can forgive your plot-hole covered fan theory, but this is where I draw the line.
    I work closely with fossils and try to remain as up-to-date with the world of paleontology as I can. It is a passion of mine and my job requires it. The largest known mammals of the entire mesozoic didn't even exceed the size of a possum; they didn't start thriving until after the end of the Cretaceous when all large fauna at the time (non-avian dinosaurs and other large archosaurs to start off with) died off. And its not like primates just magically popped up out of nowhere after said extinction event either.
    No credible scientific-based entity has made the claims you just made.

    Just stop before you make this worse for yourself. Please.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2020
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  2. Mike Smith

    Mike Smith Well-Known Member

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    What the hell are you talking about dude?
     
  3. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Droppin' Space Colonies

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    The whole "humans existed alongside dinosaurs has recently been proven by science" part.

    Where is the proof of this?
     
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  4. Galvatross

    Galvatross Hazekiah/Jaegertron 2020! Veteran

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    Well, technically speaking, there are twice as many living dinosaur species as mammals alive today. It's just that they aren't what most people immediately envision when they hear the word "dinosaur." Modern dinosaurs are things like sparrows, finches, crows, flamingos, parrots, sandpipers, penguins, eagles, ratites, ducks, owls, megapodes, bustards, hummingbirds, etc. We no longer live in the age of non-neornithine dinosaurs like ornithischians, herrerasaurs, sauropodomorphs, coelophysoids, ceratosaurs, etc.

    So you could make an argument we still are in the Age of Dinosaurs, although in this case, I doubt that is what was meant. It's definitely an odd thing to say when the non-avian dinosaurs in movies are depicted as existing long before humans lived.

    That said, I would not be opposed to Dinobot Island or the Savage Land making an appearance in a future Transformers movie. That would actually be pretty cool!
     
  5. Rumblestorm

    Rumblestorm Well-Known Member

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    Hence me saying non-avian in my post. Avian dinosaurs, birds, are the ones still alive today.

    But we both know that when we hear "dinosaur" everyone thinks the non-avian ones. However, I'd say that just there being twice as many dinos than mammals today means they are still the dominant group. Its all debatable for another thread not on here.:D 

    Its probably where the dinobots went after they dissapeared 1/3rd into TLK.:lol 
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2020
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  6. cybeast

    cybeast Well-Known Member

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    And this is why people didn't take some of you seriously. Seriously, everytime people complained, you all tried to shut down them on "GO BACK TO G1 YOU WHINER!"

    Sorry, but Beast Wars is more of my jam :p 

    Coming soon: A Cartoon adventure of Grimlock and Friends on Dinobot Island!

    ...I'd probably watch that.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2020
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  7. Moy

    Moy Constructicons!

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    It's cool you have your theories and all, but the average moviegoer won't care. They would just see how the movies continue disregard continuity efforts.
    It's not so much hate fans here express, but rather a sense of betrayal on the studios for allowing a TF Universe forced on the movies.

    [​IMG]

    When clearly it wouldn't work. It worked for Marvel. It imploded on Transformers.

    Personally mentioning Unicron in Paramount's last movie, felt forced and not a good idea.

    What I expected from TLK is not what we got. And I understand some things are changed do to money. But When Optimus is clearly on his way to an alien planet in TF4, then that's what is expected. For instance, the seed? Forget about that.
    Optimus sword all of a sudden had a knights cross displayed on it. But was not there in tf4.

    I also wanted to have the Dinobots origins explained and some speaking roles. At least for Grimlock.
    Rather than sharing a little more about the mysterious Dinobots, paramount took advantage of the Superbowl to sell cute baby dinobots. See where I'm going with this?

    Rather than investing more time and dialogue on the Tf4 Dinobots, we got a set of a new knights.

    And who thought it was a good idea to swap Leadfoot head and placed on Topspin?

    Then we had the ksi boss from TF4 with shockwaves head. Yes it bothered me. Onslaught also should've just been LongHaul with added weapons.

    The one character that was sold as a triple headmaster, ends up being nothing more than a star wars character rip off. I don't have to mention his name.
    Barricade was advertised everywhere in marketing only to provide nothing about his character or his whereabouts after TF3. This was the last chance to finally get to know a little more about Barricade.

    See this may seem like a rant, but I grew tired of seeing so many great characters on screen only to be completely forgotten. I believed by TF5 Paramount and Lorenzo would finally give old characters a chance to be on screen for more than just blowing up.

    Dino and Sideswipe could've at least been the two characters we saw on Cuna playing with a ball.

    Quintessa not mentioning the creators, Dinobots or Primus, the primes was a let down.

    Nobody wants to spend years trying to piece together the movies in order to make sense out of it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2020
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  8. Galvatross

    Galvatross Hazekiah/Jaegertron 2020! Veteran

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    My post was toward Burnout. I should have quoted him to make that clearer. And agreed fully!

    Maybe. :lol  Although with Grimlock's and Slug's ability to burrow into the ground, maybe it was the Center of the Earth they went to? The Unicron version of that story, of course.
     
  9. hthrun

    hthrun Show accuracy's overrated

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    Yeah, TLK was a huge let down for me. I thought there was going to be some cool character arcs when the Deceptions were released from prison, but they almost all got killed in the first battle.
     
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  10. ChaosDonkey

    ChaosDonkey Lord Brain

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    A live action universe could have worked with the right people, and a mixture of series and movies. Never with the lot we had in charge.
    And Unicron being forced? Completely.
    There were speculations on here on how he could get implemented even before the fifth movie was on the drawing board. That could have worked far better then the Prime ripoff.
    One of the ideas I liked was making him something of a KSI virus that slowly took over Galvatron and making him his herald before his arrival for the sixth movie.

    The problem I have with tlk is that it's an ok popcorn standalone movie, but is beyond awful as a fifth installment.
     
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  11. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Droppin' Space Colonies

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    The big thing that I feel consistently gets glossed over, no matter how much I bring it up, is how AoE marked a point where Paramount didn't really care about what was in the films so long as they could use the franchise as a vehicle to get money from the Chinese box office. That's why it was effectively a soft reboot by killing all but two of the Autobots - a new starting point so the Chinese audiences wouldn't feel "lost" or something. Combine that with the extreme pandering which has been documented to death and you get a movie that is blatantly packaged for the Chinese market.

    TLK was Paramount moving in that direction, but without the Chinese appeal that had been so obvious in AoE, nor the agreement on making more money than was traditionally allowed by the Chinese Government to go out of the country on films per ticket sold. Paramount thought AoE had been a lock and so they could put whatever on the silver screen and the Chinese box office alone would make it profitable. Hence the whole "historical film" angle as already proven being the direction they were headed - it would be pathetically easy to just make up some historical shit and shove robots into it then have to actually come up with a way to progress a plot that already had four plot extensions taped onto it - easy films to make and mass market to the Chinese for easy money, plain and simple.
     
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  12. ChaosDonkey

    ChaosDonkey Lord Brain

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    The fourth film worked in China due to Chinese product placement, and use of chinese actors, pop stars and the country it self. In the fifth movie those stuff mostly vanished and the Chinese audience didn't have much to relate to, even the historical angle.
    They can't relate as much to ww2 and Arthurian legends as Europeans and Americans.
    The entire historical part was completely wrongly fabricated. They should skipped Bee as a part of it and concentrated more on characters introduced in Aoe.
    With Drift a major potential for an Asian historical reference, with maybe introducing a new Chinese inspired character who in the past turned drift from con to bot. Chinese historical romantism is popular and with avoiding historical references to japanese atrocities but historical parts prior to it, they could make a movie that relates to both cultures
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2020
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  13. ErbFan28

    ErbFan28 Well-Known Member

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    All this does is make me mildly interested in a TF6 from Michael Bay and the writer’s room. Because I am actually very curious to see where this all was heading, even if it ended up being a disaster.
     
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  14. Insurgent

    Insurgent Big Red Fire Snorting Dragon

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    This is how I viewed it. Quintessa being originally human is not a good plot move. It shrinks down the universe, needlessly makes a human the creator of all the transformers (maybe?) and frankly is just daft. Quintessa was one of the things I really liked about TLK and would like to see Gemma Chan reprise that role somewhere else.

    To me, Quintessa is that hand from AOE (or the same species at least) and at some point, she developed a technorganic body for herself, explaining her upgrade to her tlk look but why it isn't as robotic looking as the tf's. She hired Lockdown to hunt down her knights, but he went after all the knights, not realising the Dragonstorm knights were of a different lineage. She and her kind created the Allspark cube to give life to their creations. Unicron battled them and they were able to drive away the chaos bringer, but Quintessa knew he would return one day and developed the staff weapon to kill his soul, knowing a direct physical attack would be useless. Dragonstorm Knights realised she was going insane and the use of this staff would spell doom for them all, so took the staff and fled. Maybe they knew it was Unicron and was keeping it close to him so if he should awaken, they could react fast enough and save the wider universe at the cost of themselves. The transformers on Cybertron rebelled and with her guardian knights gone, Quintessa was driven away from Cybertron with the Original Seven Primes (ROTF established seven primes, not thirteen) the only ones to really know the truth. They created the solar harvester to recharge their planet of energy following the battle against the creators and Unicron. The Matrix was used as the symbol of a united democracy with them, hence Matrix of Leadership, it could only be used when the leaders all agreed, and was the only way to activate the harvester. The Fallen went rogue, his siblings hid away the Matrix. Perhaps The Fallen knew Earth was Unicron and wanted to use it on that planet to wipe out Unicron and his fleshy spawn, but the other Primes wanted to give humanity a chance to prove they were not like their creator. Flash forward and war has broken out. Sentinel has discovered in the Allspark records a planet with primitive creatures that could be used to rebuild their war torn planet and reaches an agreement with Megatron to stop the war and go get the humans. But his ship was shot leaving Cybertron and disappeared, unknowingly going on it's final course heading to Earth. War continued until the Allspark was jettisoned into space. The similar and unique power type of the allspark and the harvester acted like a magnet, drawing the cube towards earth where it landed. Megatron followed. Eventually The Ark made it to it's last programmed destination. Earth. Where it crashed on the moon due to the damage sustained on it's long journey.

    After DOTM, Quintessa returned to the ruins of Cybertron and started setting about rebuilding it using her advanced technology, knowing the brief appearance of Cybertron in Earth orbit via the space bridge would have started the awakening of Unicron. She hired Lockdown to go get her Knights so she could find her staff but Lockdown went after the Dinobot knights, not the Dragonstorm knights.


    Bumblebee went to Earth because the Autobots picked up some jumbled signals from the Earth system (Chernobyl) and sent a scout. It's clear he's been on earth for a while in TF1. The Decepticons had Laserbeak on Earth already dealing with the whole NASA thing and setting up a fall back plan there for the pillars, and were able to pickup Megatron's brief signal when he awakened infront of Sam's grandfather, prompting the deployment of Frenzy which lead to the infiltration of Starscream's unit.

    And finally, almost everything said by Burton is a lie. The man is senile, he's an unreliable narrator and has made up an entire false history which he believes to be true. He commissioned paintings of historical landmarks with modern day robots in them as 'proof' of his stories. That's the only way his stuff can be reconciled.


    So yeah. That's my headcannon history of these films.
     
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  15. Sablebot

    Sablebot #iposttomakeyouthinknotdebate

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    Question- If she was the hand, then how did she comprise a whole squadron of ships? So she was able to clone herself, too??? At the beginning of AOE, we were shown more than 1 ship that terraformed the Earth. It wasn't a well-thought out idea, at the end of the day. . .
     
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  16. Insurgent

    Insurgent Big Red Fire Snorting Dragon

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    I... don't understand your confusion. If the hand we see push the button was Quintessa. It was the button that triggered the detonation of the seeds (directly or by issuing the order). She wasn't the only person in the entire fleet, each ship had their own crew of the same species (The Creators). Quintessa was (possibly) just in command of that operation on Earth. Why would cloning need to come into it? Isn't it obvious each ship had their own crew? Each ship in the fleet is manned by The Creators. I thought I wouldn't need to explain that.
     
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  17. Sablebot

    Sablebot #iposttomakeyouthinknotdebate

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    Warning: LONG rant. NO. Not so fast. Actually, I'm not confused at all-I was being sarcastic, yet asking VALID razor-sharp questions at the same time that the bayverse films and their devotees STILL fail to answer, which others here have also asked. This is NOT a matter of a lack of the ability to be self-thinking. It IS a case of half-ass screenwriting/filmic storytelling that does not stand up to scrutiny, as someone else has so elegantly stated, and furthermore, also a case of some folks trying to explain away said blatant half-ass/piss-poor writing with excuses. If the bayverse had been a logically-plotted, well-written, high-art metaphorical, highly-symbolic, airtight, allegorical cinematic narrative film, then all this explaining away would work. It doesn't - not even in the slightest.

    We were never shown WHO was piloting those ships, except for an alien-looking arm that guess what? Doesn't even look like it belongs to whom we were told and shown later it belongs to. To add further insult to injury, EARLIER we were ALSO told: 1)THE CUBE created/creates Cybertronian life; 2)Then we're told via LOCKDOWN especially that there were creatorS; 3)Optimus, at the end of AOE CLEARLY says, "I am Optimus Prime, and this message is to my creatorS (Hint, Hint). . .Leave Planet Earth, alone. . .Because I'm coming for you!", and then he flies off to outer space clearly implying he was gonna lay the smackdown on THEM (Hint, Hint); 3)We also saw previously a shard of said aforementioned cube create the fugly sexually-suggestive (the filmmakers didn't stop at sexualizing its Female Characters, they had to go as far as create a transforming blender with an oversized robotic phallus that even the animators named, you guessed it, DICKbot :rolleyes: :rolleyes: o_O o_O ) kitchenbots that ravage Sam's house, as well as create the Mt. Dew bot, the X-Boxbot, the steering wheel bot in a Woman's car, the Nokiabot, and other ones, which also turn out to be evil bots; 4)We are then introduced to what looks like a robotized dominatrix-looking Marquis De Sade/S&M/50 Shades of Gray reject who the filmmakers couldn't be bothered to NOT name/nameslap after the planet of said creators in a previous iteration-and once again, tell us that it was SHE and SHE alone that created the Transformers; 5)We then see her just "magically" turn into a Woman (with NO logical rhyme or reason) who tells some guy who walks up to her in the desert, not to touch Unicron (which is a stupid concept itself, given it would WIPE OUT every damn living thing on Earth, as well as Earth itself, when it transformed). Not even Criss Angel nor David Copperfield could do that much magic. . .

    At the end of the day, again, while with SOME films, certain details can be reasonably inferred, that IS NOT the case with the bayverse, because it is not one of those films in the aforementioned SOME films. Now, because of what the bayverse led to, HasbroMount has been scared into permeating our favorite cybertronians with G1 over and over and over again. YES, there are some things I can't stand with G1, even though I grew up with it. Bumblebee was a good start, but now the film franchise has to play catchup, before it can course-correct itself into creating a series of good successive film entries, before it can begin exploring the other iterations of the TF universe. . .I say good riddance to bayverse.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2020
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  18. Insurgent

    Insurgent Big Red Fire Snorting Dragon

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    No, it doesn't all make sense. That's why we are here in this thread coming up with ideas on how we can fit it all together. Because we like stories and we find it fun to piece this shit together. You don't like the movies, fine. No on is asking you to.

    Yes. There are multiple creators. Maybe the creators made the allspark. Maybe quintessa is one of them. Maybe she lied and is nothing to do with them. Her own knights called her the great deceiver. We finally have an interesting thread in the movie section again and even though you say you are done with the bayverse and good riddance to it, you still feel the need to come in here and piss all over us who are having a nice little discussion. No one is claiming it to be high art, or well written. But we can still find enjoyment in it.

    I just have to address the point about her turning into a human at the end with no explanation. You are aware holograms are a thing?

    And you were being sarcastic? You need to work on it. Because without something like an emoji or blue text, sarcasm doesn't bloody work in text format. Save your bolded underlined responses. You say good riddance to bayverse? I say good riddance to you.
     
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  19. Sablebot

    Sablebot #iposttomakeyouthinknotdebate

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    Here's the thing - the fitting together was the responsibility of the filmmakers, especially the writers, before they had a shooting script, before they had a final draft, before any frames of film were shot, before the final edit, before the rough cut, before the answer print was delivered from which release prints were made, and before any test screenings and sneak previews. Of course it doesn't help that these films were being edited up until the last minute. If the audience has to do that after the fact, then guess what? That means that the filmmakers didn't do their damn job-and no amount of attempting to "salvage" that situation through explaining it away, will ever fix it. Nor will any half-ass bean-counter corporatespeak interviews by executives who, even after 5 movies, STILL don't fully know what the hell they're talking about. It's equivalent to a person in a court trial trying to proclaim innocence when they keep changing their damn story, because the story they keep telling lacks continuity and consistency. . . They may fool alot of folks, but they aren't fooling all of us, "chief"o_O ;) . . .

    If I pay for a movie ticket with my hard-earned money, which I work damn hard for (as do others), then why should I have to spend my time after I buy the ticket, to do the filmmaker's/,writer's job for them? Defeats the purpose of seeing that film, does it not??? Learn about what comprises a coherent film FIRST, and then maybe we can talk further. I'm done:rolleyes: .
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2020
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  20. Galvatross

    Galvatross Hazekiah/Jaegertron 2020! Veteran

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    1. That's not the analogy you want to use, because the burden of proof is supposed to lie on the prosecution, not the defendant. There are criminal cases in which innocent people were convicted due to interviewing techniques by law enforcement, in which the innocent person kept on changing their story as a result of external pressure, and in which the innocent person admitted to a crime they didn't commit.

    2. "But they aren't fooling all of us, "chief." Really? You and some others have a really bad habit of acting as if people who dare like the movies are somehow "fooled." People can just have different opinions from you, and that's fine.

    And please stop with typing words in parentheses to describe people you disagree with. You once called me your "great" Shrekness, and here you call someone, "chief." They come across as passive-aggressive insults and pointless snark.

    Personally, while I didn't like how The Last Knight glossed over or minimized several characters or concepts from the previous film (a whole race of Creators, Galvatron's existence, Dinobots), I also agree with @Insurgent that Quintessa very well could have been an upgraded, mechanical member of that species. THAT is what they were trying to say. They never implied that Quintessa was controlling all of those alien ships by themselves, only that Quintessa possibly could have been an upgraded member of that species or fleet. There's a difference between acknowledging possibilities, as Insurgent did, and stating things as definite fact.

    Yes, TLK doesn't explain it. Most people think that's a weakness of the film, myself included. I think a film that focused more on being a sequel to the other films rather than a springboard to a cinematic universe would have been more enjoyable to a larger percentage of general audience members and hardcore fans.

    But here's something about Quintessa I have pointed out in the past: Quintessa is really the Bayverse's Mara Al-Utha more than anything else. It wouldn't surprise me if that's her inspiration, as they have a lot in common in terms of abilities and how they deceive others. Why they went for a live action "Madman's Paradise" type fifth film rather than something that explored the Creators more as a race and the full story of the Transformers' origins is something I don't have an answer to.

    It's also why fans have to be careful what they wish for. After AoE, the most vocal haters were attacking Kruger, the idea of the Creators, Transformium, etc. Did changing writers benefit TLK? No. Did not continuing with the Creators, and instead introducing a new character whose real identity is never made clear result in a better fifth film? Did ignoring Galvatron, with his cube transformations, result in a better fifth film? No. '

    A film with MORE of that stuff people complained about actually would have been BETTER than what we got, because at the very least, it almost certainly would have acknowledged Galvatron, a race of Creators, etc., rather than pretend those things didn't exist. Personally speaking, AoE is the peak of the films, and the AoE universe is one of the most interesting fictional universes in the brand imho, and its sequel had the potential to be the best of the live action films, as it should have been.

    The lesson? Film makers shouldn't listen to fans who are angry about theatrical depictions of their favorite brands. Constructive criticism is beneficial, but fans and critics claiming, "Everything is sh*t!" results in worse movies being produced, because it means filmmakers don't realize what they are doing that is right and consequently their films' strengths.
     
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