Quintessa and what might have been

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Mike Smith, Apr 12, 2020.

  1. Galvatross

    Galvatross Dreklord of Ogremarr Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2013
    Posts:
    6,583
    Trophy Points:
    257
    Likes:
    +8,813
    I got to give you props for coming up with a well written explanation as to the origins of Quintessa and what a hypothetical Transformers 6 would have been.

    If I were making a Transformers 6, I would have it so that the Quintessons were the "mediators" between Primus and Unicron. Primus, representing order, has sway over Cybertron and other mechanical worlds. Unicron, representing chaos and the comparatively chaotic nature of the geology of worlds like Earth, would have sway over Earth and other terrestrial or gaseous planets, often with organic life.

    Tens of millions of years ago, Unicron was having a stronger sway over the universe, and the balance was tipped toward chaos. To right the ship so to speak, the Quintessons used the Seeds to cyberform thousands of terrestrial planets with organic life. Furthermore, from the resulting Transformium they made lifeless, robotic slaves that would obey their every order: the Transformers. These Transformers would be the enforcers of balance the Quintessons had long desired.

    One of the leaders of the Quintessons, Quintessa, sought immortality and power, and so she uploaded her mind into a new, Transformium-based body with heightened abilities that would not age or decay.

    However, there were some within the Quintesson ranks who, disliking how the Quintessons were treating other beings in the universe, sought to sabotage their efforts at balancing and managing the universe. They acquired the Allspark, and object with the power to give life to machines, and gave life to the Dynasty of Primes, the first Transformers with life. These Primes, realizing they had been slaves, rebel against the Quintessons and are able to send them fleeing. After the Quintessons have left, they use the Allspark to give life to the other Cybertronians and begin a new civilization on Cybertron. While most Transformers remain unaware of their origins beyond the Allspark, some become aware of their true origins due to the continued interference in Cybertronian affairs by Quintessa. Obviously wars and destruction and Transformers leaving the planet follow. Now in the present day, with Cybertron heavily damaged and Unicron awakening, the balance tips toward chaos once more.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. Mike Smith

    Mike Smith Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2020
    Posts:
    57
    Trophy Points:
    47
    Location:
    North America
    Likes:
    +142

    I think that the writers realized that they had run into a wall with Unicron, and realized that wasn't a very logical narrative for the live action series. There is a vast amount of information there that they could have used to establish a backstory for Quintessa and the Creators, and based on their statements that's exactly what they have done, but creating a working script where three different plots ( Cybertron, Quintessa, and Unicron) are resolved would have been far too risky for Paramount to sign off on.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Galvatross

    Galvatross Dreklord of Ogremarr Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2013
    Posts:
    6,583
    Trophy Points:
    257
    Likes:
    +8,813
    Personally speaking, I never would have introduced Unicron until later on in the Creators' story. I think Unicron can be a natural continuation of the Creators' story, but he was introduced too soon. They should have just shown other attempts at the Creators controlling the Transformers (like Nemesis Prime) without introducing Unicron.
     
  4. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Droppin' Space Colonies

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Posts:
    36,693
    Trophy Points:
    392
    Location:
    [REDACTED]
    Likes:
    +18,383
    Sorry to burst your bubble, but they were never interested in that stuff.

    Why else would we have concept art of them instead going back in time, putting Bumblebee in Vietnam, or that god awful looking WWII film? There was talk from Lorenzo about shoving robots into the Roman and Feudal Japan eras.

    All they wanted to do was make historical set piece films with robots shoved in.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  5. Mike Smith

    Mike Smith Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2020
    Posts:
    57
    Trophy Points:
    47
    Location:
    North America
    Likes:
    +142
    I'm not certain where you're getting your information from, but you are incorrect. The writers developed a backstory for the Autobots to be present on Earth during the war as a way to tie in the previous plots from the earlier films, and establish the direction that they were taking the current story. If you actually cared enough to do research before making comments, then you would know this. Also, if you don't like the films, then why keep commenting on this thread?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  6. Moy

    Moy Constructicons!

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2007
    Posts:
    10,271
    News Credits:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    312
    Likes:
    +3,475
    Did TLK movie tie the last 4 films perfectly in your opinion? @Mike Smith
     
  7. Mike Smith

    Mike Smith Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2020
    Posts:
    57
    Trophy Points:
    47
    Location:
    North America
    Likes:
    +142
    Yes, and I say that based on the article that I wrote, as well as them culminating in the events of TLK. If you think about it, the Autobots goal since leaving Cybertron was to return there and restore life to the planet, implying that it was somehow dead or dying. We got glimpses of that in both DOTM and TLK. Optimus stated during the ending of Transformers that with the AllSpark gone, they could not return life to Cybertron. We then learn something that he is not aware of in ROTF; that the Cube's power can never be lost or destroyed, only transformed. It was carried by Sam until he picked up the Matrix and used it to revive Optimus. The sum of all of the knowledge and power of the AllSpark now resides within it. Theoretically, The Matrix could be used at the end of TLK to reactivate Cybertron's core, and allow the planet to heal. The Autobots would then have the ability to do what they could not, and could also potentially kill Unicron in the process, thereby saving Earth once and for all. The only thing that remains then is both Megatron and Quintessa.
     
  8. Moy

    Moy Constructicons!

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2007
    Posts:
    10,271
    News Credits:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    312
    Likes:
    +3,475
    Ok. That's fair, but to me it didn't.
    For starters the matrix of leadership was ignored.
    And TLK introduced yet another macguffin. The staff. It was at that point I knew Paramount didn't learn anything.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  9. Mike Smith

    Mike Smith Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2020
    Posts:
    57
    Trophy Points:
    47
    Location:
    North America
    Likes:
    +142
    One thing that I will point out is that the staff was known to Quintessa to be on Earth, the matrix was not. She had no knowledge of it's whereabouts, and we can only presume that she knew what the Fallen did, which is that the other Primes sacrificed themselves to presumably destroy it. For all she knew it was lost, as was the ability to reactivate any of the Star Harvesters which had been built. She would have had to have known that that Autobot Knights had a means to reactivate Cybertron to syphon power from Unicron through the staff, even if it was never created for such a purpose. There have been multiple relics throughout the Transformers franchise over the years which held special abilities and powers, and used as such story telling devices. The writers simply took inspiration from some of this and used it to great effect.

    Michael Bay for example had been pegged to direct a movie set in the middle ages, but declined the offer. He was however very intrigued with this time period and setting, and while working with the writers he came up with the idea to have ancient Autobots on Earth who were responsible for the stories of Arthur and Merlin. Their Cybertronian code of Honor was adopted by the humans as a code of Chivalry. It is an extremely fascinating and ingenious storyline.
     
  10. Rumblestorm

    Rumblestorm Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2013
    Posts:
    3,755
    News Credits:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    222
    Likes:
    +4,408
    Im just realizing, the whole Esrth being Unicron was apperently a last minute thing per Lorenzo di Bonaventura. So if thats the case, WTF was the original plan with Quintessa, Earth's energy, and the Knights then? Unicron is a key element to the plot, wtf was the original plan then? Kinda disproves the OP's claim that they knew what they were writing.

    Also the Matrix (whose power derived from the Allspark) could have totally been the main mcguffin here since it would mean Unicron's deafeat per the usual mythos, but no, we had to make it Merlin's Staff whose powers were never really clarified when you really think about it.

    Transformers Planning Spinoff Movie Set in Ancient Rome
    The feudal Japan was the image of the 2 samurai bots in TLK.

    Yeah, he totally didn't do his research. :rolleyes2 

    The writers didnt write an over-arching jack-shit and, though I appreciate your efforts, you are literally plugging in your own version of things like all of us have done since the days of DOTM. It's evident they had no idea what they're writing in how Burton's artifact room has images of characters that weren't even on Earth at the time they were made, it's evident in how the film ignores the techno-organic creators, it's evident in how it ignores the Allspark and replaces it with Quintessa's Staff of Creation, the list goes on.

    Geez, you know you've done goofed when even Burnout and I can agree on something.

    Also, regarding your comment on The Fallen believing the Matrix was destroyed, you're wrong there too. He knew it was out there, that's why he had the seekers on Earth looking for it. He know where the Harvester was, he just needed to find the Matrix.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Droppin' Space Colonies

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Posts:
    36,693
    Trophy Points:
    392
    Location:
    [REDACTED]
    Likes:
    +18,383
    ...uh, if The Fallen thought that the Matrix had been destroyed, and with it the ability to activate the Sun Harvester, then what exactly was the plot of ROTF? That whole scene on the shipwreck that introduces Fallen establishes that the Decepticons want to generate mass amounts of Energon to fuel a new army. If the only thing that is capable of even doing this; the Sun Harvester, can not be operated because the thing required to turn it on was destroyed, why are they even having that conversation?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Sablebot

    Sablebot #iposttomakeyouthinknotdebate

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Posts:
    1,189
    Trophy Points:
    232
    Likes:
    +826
    Exactly. At the end of the day, Bay and Lorenzo's primary concern was getting their $$$$$ on with a spectacle-driven vehicle (pun intended), at the expense (another pun intended) of crafting a coherent, logical, continuity-having, good-characterization-having film series. Ironically, the very beings which the film series is titled after were pretty much reduced to being pets for the human cast. With the diminishing returns the 2nd-5th films brought in, it was only a matter of time before what transpired, would come to pass. . .
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Mike Smith

    Mike Smith Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2020
    Posts:
    57
    Trophy Points:
    47
    Location:
    North America
    Likes:
    +142
    I
    I stated that Quintessa did not know that the Matrix existed, not The Fallen. This is not me "plugging my own version of things" as you say. I'm a professional writer, and though I may make suggestions, they are based on the facts as they are presented. What I have seen on this thread is a lot of hate and immaturity from folks who can't appreciate the films for what they are, so my question would be why are you here? To troll? If you don't like the films, then move on.
     
  14. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Droppin' Space Colonies

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Posts:
    36,693
    Trophy Points:
    392
    Location:
    [REDACTED]
    Likes:
    +18,383
    Your exact words:

    As I pointed out above, The Fallen knows the Matrix is not destroyed, otherwise literally the entire plot of ROTF can't happen since the whole ploy of killing Optimus has the benefit of revealing its hidden location (in addition to killing the Last Prime, the only one who supposedly could kill The Fallen).

    Therefore, based on your statement, Quintessa has to know the Matrix was not destroyed, because you establish that "we" can only presume she knew as much as The Fallen, and The Fallen knew it was not destroyed - thus, logically, she knows as well.

    Additionally, it seems the Matrix can not be destroyed, since it collapses into dust when Sam first tries to pick it up, and then later after the whole robot heaven sequence reforms itself, and then later still the entire harvester with the Matrix still in it gets blown up by Prime shooting it.

    It's A-OK in DOTM years later when Prime uses it to revive Sentinel.

    The exact wording from the film was that the Primes killed themselves to form a tomb of their bodies to hide the Matrix, which in-universe could not simply be moved off planet for some unexplained reason since effectively putting the key only 400 miles (going off the rough geographical distance between the place used to film the exterior of the Tomb to the great pyramids) from the thing you do not want it put back into is a dumb move. I would think a neighboring star system light years away might be a better choice.

    Also:

    This is literally the crap that got pushed at the end of Dr. Who S13 in The Timeless Children to explain why the Doctor is extra super special even among timelords - those losers basically stole the whole regeneration thing from the Doctor, who was originally not a Timelord but some kind of alien that looked like an African american child in the beginning.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2020
    • Like Like x 2
  15. ChaosDonkey

    ChaosDonkey Lord Brain

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2012
    Posts:
    1,962
    Trophy Points:
    192
    Likes:
    +425
    The matrix being 400 miles from the harvester is more due to cheap locations then plot I think. :) 

    Lorenzo and his statement about quintessa being human is creating more problems then it is solving. Thats if she had anything to do with the creators. Unless he is telling us that humans existed during the age of dinosaurs.But that would create another problem, the creators don't cyberform planets with sentient life.
    She could have something to do with the primes if we follow the scientific time line of the human race, but even that would create problems.
    Because the schism among the primes happened because of humans, and no one but the fallen could then create her afterwards, since the other primes entombed them selves.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Rumblestorm

    Rumblestorm Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2013
    Posts:
    3,755
    News Credits:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    222
    Likes:
    +4,408
    Dude, don't take all this so personally.
    The only reason we are responding like this is because you are acting as if you've cracked the metaphorical code here, but really all you've done is contributed just another fan-theory to the many ones that are out there. However, I, and I'm sure others here, have have heard better ones. Unfortunately yours still has a lot of holes, and after some of the claims you have just made (i.e, Fallen thinking the Matrix was destroyed) your claim of having researched this for hundreds of hours is thrown into question.

    Don't think of me as someone who hates the movies. I love the first 4 movies! Heck, in the last 2 days I have been rewatching them and am surprised how I can still tolerate the cringiest parts (a bias, I suppose, since I can't stand the same humor in other films). But, TLK killed it. The pacing, the lack of any semblance of heart (which I can argue that the last 4 films had to certain degrees), the hostile tone that was created with everyone yelling and screaming out their lines throughout the film, and the complete disregard of all established lore all ruined it.
    Honestly, I would mentally block out TLK from film canon if not for the fact that if I were to do that AoE's cliffhanger would leave me dealing with my completion anxiety.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2020
    • Like Like x 2
  17. Mike Smith

    Mike Smith Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2020
    Posts:
    57
    Trophy Points:
    47
    Location:
    North America
    Likes:
    +142
    Mr. Bonaventura was the Producer on TLK, and also worked closely with the writers, as well as Mr. Bay and Mr. Goldner. Again, I am going to refer to Star Wars here as an example, as I served as a contributing columnist for a Star Wars website in the past, and have a similar perspective there that some of you have here about the Transformers live action franchise. To begin with, George Lucas had a complete story treatment written by 1976, but as work began on A New Hope, there were many details that were altered, dropped altogether, or rewritten to fit into the context of the story. This process continued until Mr. Lucas submitted his story treatments for the sequels to Disney, which was a part of their contract, they just weren't obliged to use them, and didn't. As time progressed however, Mr. Lucas was called in to serve as a creative consultant, or else personally consulted by folks like J.J. Abrams. There were people like Abrams who laughed at some of the ideas that Mr. Lucas had, and ones that he had used, and discounted them. That is evidence of their immaturity and short sightedness.

    When a writer develops an idea for a story, it may go through dozens of revisions before finally being accepted by the Director, Producer, and Studio Executives for filming. I would agree that money is always a factor, as the studio must make a profit that is calculated to cover the cost of production, in addition to all fo the other fees and salaries that are not calculated in the production costs, so yes they want the film to be successful. With Transformers, the moment that a sequel was signed off on, work began. Everyone involved in the creative process understands the gravity of what is at stake with one of these films. They understand the history, and the expectations that fans will have. Just like with Star Wars, they are not attempting to please everyone, they are attempting to produce the next chapter in a film that will tell a unique story with these characters.

    So when a Producer like Lorenzo Di Bonaventura makes a public statement like that, then I can assure you that he is sharing with you what they have already discussed and written. There is a draft ready for TF6, whether it ever gets produced or not, and yes he was implying that humans lived during the age of the Dinosaurs, which is something that modern science has begun to validate itself. He also made it clear that Quintessa was or is a human, meaning that her physiology was somehow altered to become something more than what she originally was. He also made it clear that she in fact is the creator of the Transformers, not just in his speech but the hints in the film with their symbols on her head dress. apparently some fans on this site do not want to accept that, and do not like that, and that is their choice, but to bash people and try to change things to match what they want them to say is an indicator of the level of maturity that they are at. My advice would be to the fanbase to enjoy the films for what they are, or not, and if they don't then go self isolate with G1 and Gobots.

    Gee thanks for your expert input dude, as if I'm going to lie about how much time I spend researching stuff. SMH.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 14, 2020
  18. ChaosDonkey

    ChaosDonkey Lord Brain

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2012
    Posts:
    1,962
    Trophy Points:
    192
    Likes:
    +425
    dinosaurs and humans co existed says modern science? ok :) 

    You see a producer saying something about something that was thought of but was scrapped, doesn't make it a part of the story.
    You can create a fan theory,
    but fan theories are not fact. And people are allowed to have opinions about fan theories as much as they have about the movies.

    And I didn't bash you, I wasn't personal with you, I said my opinion.
    And my opinion is that making her a human creates even more problems to a movie full of them, then it creates solutions.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  19. Mike Smith

    Mike Smith Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2020
    Posts:
    57
    Trophy Points:
    47
    Location:
    North America
    Likes:
    +142
    I wasn't referring to you
     
  20. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Droppin' Space Colonies

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Posts:
    36,693
    Trophy Points:
    392
    Location:
    [REDACTED]
    Likes:
    +18,383
    We can thank his first wife for that given, IIRC, she was responsible for the actual rewrites.

    No, because by the time of the prequels, Lucas had divorced his wife so she wasn't around and thus we got some of the worst dialogue in cinematic history.

    Lucas was called in as creative consultant after the colossal shitshow that was the response to The Last Jedi.

    Rian Johnson could not have given less of a shit about any of that, by his own admission!

    I...I'm gonna need to see some sources on that, chief.

    I don't think so.

    Looking up that interview, the exact wording was "But actually, if you look at the mythology, the mythology of The Quintessa is that she very well and was probably human. So when you go back in time and go through that 6 billion years of mythology, there's certainly a current of thought within it that says she was a human character and perhaps was actually the first one who built the Transformers."

    So, where exactly is this "mythology" he's referring to as evidence? Because "The Quintessa" - who he's obviously referring to in the singular sense meaning Quintessa herself - does not exist in actual Transformers lore. The closest is one of the more popular G1 creation origins where the Quints were the ones who created the Transformers, only to be overthrown by their creations - and this ONLY appears in G1. The Quints themselves don't appear outside of G1 based material except for Alpha Quintesson (who had nothing to do with Transformer creation) in Energon, or the Quintesson Co-Prosperity Sphere easter egg in the AllSpark Almanacs which has no bearing on the Transformers there, either. (Or Shattered Glass where they're a bunch of space hippies but SG is still largely G1 based anyway.)

    Not to mention this goes completely against the opening lines of the first film which Prime himself clearly states " Before time began, there was the Cube. We know not where it comes from, only that it holds the power to create worlds and fill them with life. That is how our race was born."

    So, your entire argument is:
    • Relying on an interview from a notorious liar who thinks little about the actual robots or the franchise (he originally didn't want the robots to talk at all in the 2007 film, and then when he couldn't get that, he wanted Liam Nielsen to be Prime purely for the star power and his attempt to make Cullen's voice test look bad backfired in spectacular fashion when Cullen instead simply did both parts of his script because he's that damn good),
    • Citing mythology that does not exist and you can not subsequently produce,
    • Referencing a character who was invented purely for TLK,
    • And flies in the face of already provided evidence that all they were concerned about doing was making history setpiece films with robots shoved in them, namely because they were planning on exploiting the crap out of the Chinese box office because they thought they could repeat AoE's success there without the massive China pandering AoE had or the contracts with the Chinese government.
    EDIT: Also,:
    It's "Occam's Razor" just so you know.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2020
    • Like Like x 2