Q for people who only buy official products

Discussion in 'Transformers Toy Discussion' started by batfan007, Sep 1, 2016.

  1. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    His reasoning isn't too far removed in nature from this reasoning:
    You couldn't hop into RID Side Burn and drive down the road either, but HASBRO still got into trouble.
     
  2. shadowfall1976

    shadowfall1976 The Alpha and the Optimus

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    HasTak has gotten called out on their outright theft and make cars that resemble the cars in a round about way, if the car companies didn't think the differences were enough, they'd let them know. Legally, they are not stealing because most aren't accurate to the cars like G1 used to be, or the Viper, when they got hit for that, if they were to, they'll likely get hit again. HasTak takes their beatings.

    When it comes to making MP Hound, you have to make it look exactly like Hound, or it's not a MP Hound. 3P are just getting away with it all period. And one even had the balls to make it so a competitor couldn't sell their figure. How fast would 3P stop making MP figures if they had to answer to licensing fees and or get hit by say Toyota to stop making Trailbreaker or license it.
     
  3. kibble

    kibble Seeker style, yo!

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    If that's what it comes down to, then why do 3rd Party companies not use Autobot/Decepticon symbols or the actual character names? Maybe the 3rd Parties are also only making it as close to the original as they can...

    Why do some figures advertise it's a such & such alt mode while others don't? Probably because the ones that say are licensed and the ones that don't, aren't...
     
  4. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    Yeah, names and logos seem to be the line.
    So if that IS where the line is drawn, then 3P isn't crossing it.
     
  5. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP Be strong enough to be gentle

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    That's exactly what they're doing, because they know how shady their products are.
     
  6. treatment

    treatment Well-Known Member

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    I think it's high time that this thread gets culled for straying off-topic by becoming more "justify IP theft" than the original query of giving valid reasons for buying officials instead of 3Ps.

    Cull the thread, please!

    :dj 
     
  7. ex dtw2003

    ex dtw2003 Well-Known Member

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    Why would someone hold the view that 3p companies commit ip theft? Seriously? No, really, seriously? Because if you're really asking that question I can't help you.
     
  8. Hollywood Hoist

    Hollywood Hoist Well-Known Member

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    Hasbro is worrying about it. They banned 3P from Botcon, so clearly it does bother them.

    Given that 3P companies seem to be in countries that don't enforce IP infringement, there isn't a lot they can do.

    As for Quakewave being a contributing factor... I just don't see it, but there is no way to prove it either way so we just have a difference of opinion.
     
  9. kibble

    kibble Seeker style, yo!

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    HasTak's too...

    ;) 


    BTW, I'm not justifying IP theft...I simply don't care. If HasTak does, then swell...do something about it. My point is simply why do the IP theft white knights turn a blind eye when HasTak is the thief?
     
  10. ex dtw2003

    ex dtw2003 Well-Known Member

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    I very much wonder how many people actually got that.
     
  11. treatment

    treatment Well-Known Member

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    Prolly not that many coz there ain't no 3P for it...

    :D 
     
  12. ex dtw2003

    ex dtw2003 Well-Known Member

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    False moral equivalency.
     
  13. Dachande

    Dachande MULTI-QUOTE- USE IT. Super Mod

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    OP- have you gotten what you need?
    Please say yes, because this is starting to spiral down the typical drain.
     
  14. Mr. Chaos

    Mr. Chaos New Holder of the Matrix of Leakership

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    As others have said...

    1) Price. For the cost of a single figure from a 3p I could by an entire box of figures most times. Simply not worth as...

    2) Hasbro is creating everything I want right now. The last 5 years or so have been a second golden age. We are getting characters redone, updates, little known figures, reuse of classic gimmicks. At this point buying 3p is such a risk because within a year Hasbro could easily make that figure. Remember the third party Springers? Compare them to Hasbro's version and tell me the official version isn't superior.

    3) Cost + Company with little rep=risk. Yeah, the models look great but as we've seen from hasbro itself models can be altered or changed before the final product comes out. With hasbro, if a figure is broken or has issues I can return it to the store. 3rd Party? You are most likely screwed. Way too big of a gamble.

    4) IP Theft/supporting the brand. This is textbook IP theft, plain and simple. You can gloss it over and make any excuse you want... they are taking something someone else created and owns the copyright on and selling it themselves. End of story.

    5) The time span between releases. Dear god, is this killing 3P in my opinion. Everyone nowadays wants to advertise 3 years in advance they are producing a figure and it just creates a feeling of "All Talk, No Game". Hasbro releases images at Comic Con and we know that by the next Comic Con those figures will have come out. With 3P it is draining to try and pay attention because it seems they are all hype. And hell, how many get canceled or, worse, produce something (an add-on) that by the time it comes out the want for it has dried up?

    6) Trying too hard to do too many things. This is another trap 3P falls into. They want to create a figure... okay, great! But they want it 100% accurate to both alt modes as seen in the cartoon... so things get complex. Or worse they become so concerned with one thing that it ruins the entire figure.

    7) The condesending attitude of 3P buyers. Yeah, I'll admit it... i did think of getting into 3P until I began reading the comments buy those that buy almost all 3p stuff. Their snobbish, elitist attitudes instantly turned me off. They made me feel that liking Hasbro made me not 'a true fan' and that they were an elite group. So I said screw'em and have, at most, bought 2 accessories on shapeways... that's it. I'm not saying everyone who buys 3p is like that... but enough are to turn me off.
     
  15. Goaliebot

    Goaliebot All Makes and Models

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    You guys are muddying up terminology something wicked by lumping everything together as just "IP".

    There's copyright, utility patents, design patents, trademarks and trade dress.

    They all behave very differently under law.

    Some require the holder to go after infringement. Others do not.

    Some have lifespans of 70+ years (copyright), others as little as 14 years (design patents).

    Some are incredibly specific in exactly which elements they cover (design patents), others are broad (copyright).

    A car is protected by a blend of design patents, utility patents, trademarks, and trade dress.

    A fictional Transformer character is primarily protected by Copyright.

    This is apples to oranges.


    ----


    Here's how the 2 court cases would go:

    1) "That toy company copied our car"
    Judge: "Did they copy the trademarks or trade dress (usually this is the name, badges, etc)?"
    --> No
    Judge: "Ok so we are looking at Design Patents then. Was this car designed less than 14 years ago?"
    --> If No, case dismissed.
    --> If Yes:
    Judge: "Ok, now show me the Design Patents that were filed and approved for this vehicle. Show me exact mappings of the elements claimed in the patents vs the toy produced"
    --> If they can map such matches very closely, the car company will likely win.

    2) "that toy company copied our character"
    Judge: "Did they copy the trademarks or trade dress (usually this is the name, Autobots/decepticon symbols, etc)?"
    --> No
    Judge: "Ok so we are looking at Copyright then. Was this character created less than 70 years ago?"
    --> If No, case dismissed.
    --> If Yes:
    Judge: "Ok, now the lawyers will try to show how much this toy resembles the distinctive look and elements thereof that make up this characters known appearance..."
    (Long trial ensues)


    The key thing is that design patents are very specific, and can only be granted to unique, new features of the car. No patent covers the whole car, it's about specific elements that are depicted and claimed in the patent being very closely copied.

    Whereas with Copyright it's about resemblance. What makes a toy look like the character of "Frontimus Excellorius"? What makes a toy clearly him? The closer the matches, the stronger the case.
     
  16. Ramberk Magnus

    Ramberk Magnus Well-Known Member

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    Is that your only example? How long ago was that?

    I think its odd that you or anyone claim Hasbro is an IP thief when they work so closely with car manufacturers. There's four movies worth of toys that are licensed. Takara works with car manufacturers with their MP line and other lines in the past.

    When HasTak wants to create licensed toys they ask for a license. When's the last time HasTak got in trouble for using an unlicensed vehicle design?

    I find it really odd that people keep harping on the "HasTak is an IP thief too" argument when there are four movies worth of licensed toys. Car companies fight to have their newest roadsters featured in a TF film.

    Compare that to 3P companies that literally take still shots of the G1 cartoon and market their figures next to them. Some 3P companies only exist to sell HasTak style figures. Their packaging emulates MP Takara packaging. The included comic books and fiction literally replicates the good guys/bad guys scenario from G1. It's wholesale IP appropriation. But people keep harping "Hasbro does it too" even when you have such tight collaboration with Hasbro and car manufacturers.
     
  17. Noobimus Prime

    Noobimus Prime Well-Known Member

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    It didn't take long for the usual suspects to come in here and ruin this thread. Good job fellas
     
  18. GiganGoji

    GiganGoji Well-Known Member

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    These. I have no issue with the IP theft (if "Reptar" is still a cultural icon and a large part of people's childhoods, then I'm totally fine with 3P Transformer creations), but for me it comes down to cost, time, and transformation.
    COST - crazy expensive. $40+ for a Legends-class figure?
    TIME - $40+ for a Legends-class figure that Hasbro could release next year (or release in the time between "look at our silhouette of a figure we're totally going to make" and "we've shut down/moved on to other figures/given up/released it but you don't care anymore because it's two years later")?
    TRANSFORMATION - $40+ for a Legends-class figure that Hasbro could release next year with a "better" (subjective) transformation scheme that isn't overtly complicated for complications sake and I don't feel like I'm going to break parts in the process?
     
  19. GR1ML0CK

    GR1ML0CK Dinobot Commander

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    Same old same old
     
  20. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    So what if Has / Tak license vehicles from time to time?
    You know why they license them? It's not because they compete with auto manufacturers. You can't drive a movie BB or an Alternator down the road.

    They make cars and jets just different enough to not get in trouble.
    Just like how 3P makes figures just different enough.

    It's pretty easy to understand.

    And is GM going to turn down the money it gets from movie licensing?
    Nope.